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Old April 7th, 2013, 12:13 PM   #9181
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Den Haag lacks a "highway to the Ocean". A12 should joing A44 from Wassenaar (which should be fully graded separated) and then there should be a connection with Schevenigen strand.
What good would that do?
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Old April 7th, 2013, 05:07 PM   #9182
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Also a road that is stuck with traffic a lot of the time is not of high standard, high standard is: Safety, average speed to traverse and damage to your car... Roads in the Hague and generally roads in Holland score very badly on the last 2 thanks to ''duurzaam veilig''... All this terrible ''traffic calming'' is a killer for your suspension, average speed, and also your fuel economy! The through roads are an exception, outside of peak hours they allow for relaxed quick driving from A to B.
Dutch roads nowadays are designed in this way in order to keep drivers like you from killing others and in general making cities unlivable.


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Old April 7th, 2013, 06:35 PM   #9183
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There was a protest today against the widening of A27 along the eastern side of Utrecht. Current plans call for a widening of the concrete cut by 15 meters on either side, which means several dozen trees will have to be cut. The attendance of the protest was reported to be between a couple of hundred and 2000 protestors, many of them school children.

It's all not really surprising given Utrecht is the epicenter of the Green Left party and the initial construction in the mid 1980s also drew demonstrators who clashed with riot police.

It's a symbolic clash between anti-road and pro-road interests. The current plans will compensate the loss of trees threefold and additionally will also create a 2 hectare roof across the motorway which connects this forest with the city. The end result is actually much better for nature interests than a no-build alternative.
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Old April 7th, 2013, 11:33 PM   #9184
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post

It's a symbolic clash between anti-road and pro-road interests. The current plans will compensate the loss of trees threefold and additionally will also create a 2 hectare roof across the motorway which connects this forest with the city. The end result is actually much better for nature interests than a no-build alternative.
Couldn't agree more. I think this protest is their way of trying to get some attention (and thus voters), althought most of them are educated and know in the back of their head this widing project is needed and will actually be beneficial when it comes to 'nature' (It's just a small row of trees) and environment. I find it a weak and pretty disgusting attemt, and I hope with all my heart this 'greenleft' party will keep shrinking
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Old April 8th, 2013, 12:59 AM   #9185
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Dutch roads nowadays are designed in this way in order to keep drivers like you from killing others and in general making cities unlivable.
I do not believe that has much to do with ''duurzaam veilig'', more so with safer cars and general discipline ( respecting the correct right of way, less alcohol, etc...). Reflected by the fact that the injuries with cyclists are growing and car drivers are dropping. Finally, Duurzaam veilig was not even mentioned before 1991, therefore the drop which started way earlier cannot be in any way accounted to it! You don't see the same kind of rubbish in German villages and towns yet their casualties have been dropping too.
Yes I know Germany as a whole has a higher casualty rate, but compare 1 German state: Nordrhein Westfalen, a region with about the same population, comparable landscape and slightly smaller but overall similar to the Netherlands, is SAFER than the NL, yet without the ''Duurzaam veilig'' bull****, some unrestricted speed limit autobahns, higher speed limits in general ( outside of cities), and a LOWER casualty rate...



And how 'livable' a town is is a personal point which is objectivied by the left wing/green parties, I believe it's less livable if I spend more time stuck in traffic ( or taking a crappy bus instead of car) than at work or at home or wherever I want to be. Subjective and no point in discussing...
We'll disagree on this so I guess there's no point in arguing about ''livability''.


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The attendance of the protest was reported to be between a couple of hundred and 2000 protestors, many of them school children.
Indoctrination of innocent school kids who do not even know how the economy works by the green&NIMBY clubs, stupid propaganda!

I wish the ~150.000 drivers using that road daily would counter-protest for once against this kind of nonsense...
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and I hope with all my heart this 'greenleft' party will keep shrinking
Me too, they have caused enough economical damage as it is!

Last edited by snowdog; April 8th, 2013 at 01:19 AM.
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Old April 8th, 2013, 02:45 AM   #9186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There was a protest today against the widening of A27 along the eastern side of Utrecht. Current plans call for a widening of the concrete cut by 15 meters on either side, which means several dozen trees will have to be cut. The attendance of the protest was reported to be between a couple of hundred and 2000 protestors, many of them school children.

It's all not really surprising given Utrecht is the epicenter of the Green Left party and the initial construction in the mid 1980s also drew demonstrators who clashed with riot police.

It's a symbolic clash between anti-road and pro-road interests. The current plans will compensate the loss of trees threefold and additionally will also create a 2 hectare roof across the motorway which connects this forest with the city. The end result is actually much better for nature interests than a no-build alternative.
Are there any renders for the new A27 (with the roof)? I consider myself to be a green person, but to me it sounds like a reasonable plan if the widened road is going to be covered. it would be fantastic if the two wood areas of amelisweerd could be connected again.
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Old April 8th, 2013, 10:23 AM   #9187
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the ~150.000 drivers using that road daily
200.000

I can't find a render anywhere. Sadly. Someone from the government should do that so that those 2000 people would see what actually is happening in stead of just saying. OMG they're cutting trees
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Old April 8th, 2013, 12:35 PM   #9188
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What good would that do?
Did you fail to notice who you were talking to there?
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Old April 8th, 2013, 01:17 PM   #9189
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What good would that do?
Providing better connections of the coastal cities/districts to the Rotterdam and beyond.

Increasing the usefulness of A44.

Providing a relief link for A4 in case of temporary closure.

Slash travel times within Den Haag, the only metro where you can't escape city traffic by quickly driving outwards toward the nearest highway.
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Old April 8th, 2013, 01:59 PM   #9190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog View Post
I do not believe that has much to do with ''duurzaam veilig'', more so with safer cars and general discipline ( respecting the correct right of way, less alcohol, etc...). Reflected by the fact that the injuries with cyclists are growing and car drivers are dropping. Finally, Duurzaam veilig was not even mentioned before 1991, therefore the drop which started way earlier cannot be in any way accounted to it! You don't see the same kind of rubbish in German villages and towns yet their casualties have been dropping too.
Yes I know Germany as a whole has a higher casualty rate, but compare 1 German state: Nordrhein Westfalen, a region with about the same population, comparable landscape and slightly smaller but overall similar to the Netherlands, is SAFER than the NL, yet without the ''Duurzaam veilig'' bull****, some unrestricted speed limit autobahns, higher speed limits in general ( outside of cities), and a LOWER casualty rate...
In my eyes 'duurzaam veilig' is just a continuation of what we have been doing for many decades, taking away responsibility away from drivers and reducing conflict. I understand where you are coming from, who does not want to get a move on it when he's in a car but it has been proven countless times that people cannot be trusted to act responsible. Why do you that is is preferred for new autowegen to seperate the lanes? Because stupid drivers continue to kill others by overtaking where it is obviously not possible. Speedbumps are installed because people can not be trusted to slow down for intersections and use there eyes before they cross.

In a perfect world duurzaam veilig would not be necessary but people suck and you have to design the world around that fact.

I do not have time to look up data on Germany but I can imagine it very hard to compare them if you look at the completely different traffic landscapes there.

Quote:
And how 'livable' a town is is a personal point which is objectivied by the left wing/green parties, I believe it's less livable if I spend more time stuck in traffic ( or taking a crappy bus instead of car) than at work or at home or wherever I want to be. Subjective and no point in discussing...
We'll disagree on this so I guess there's no point in arguing about ''livability''.
I value livability, but i'm no green lefty. I will not try to convince you but a lot of people (or planners) would consider livability a very (if not the most) important argument.
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Old April 8th, 2013, 02:59 PM   #9191
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Originally Posted by DarkLoki View Post
In my eyes 'duurzaam veilig' is just a continuation of what we have been doing for many decades, taking away responsibility away from drivers and reducing conflict. I understand where you are coming from, who does not want to get a move on it when he's in a car but it has been proven countless times that people cannot be trusted to act responsible. Why do you that is is preferred for new autowegen to seperate the lanes? Because stupid drivers continue to kill others by overtaking where it is obviously not possible. Speedbumps are installed because people can not be trusted to slow down for intersections and use there eyes before they cross.

In a perfect world duurzaam veilig would not be necessary but people suck and you have to design the world around that fact.

I do not have time to look up data on Germany but I can imagine it very hard to compare them if you look at the completely different traffic landscapes there.
I disagree, you do not need downgrading roads or speedbumps to make roads safer!

I'm all for reducing conflict but the opposite seems to happen with downgraded roads!

Quote:

I value livability, but i'm no green lefty. I will not try to convince you but a lot of people (or planners) would consider livability a very (if not the most) important argument.
What I meant is livability is subjective, I don't think my neighborhood became any more ''livable'' since it became a 30 km/h zone even when I was a kid. Livability has nothing to do with speedbumps for me, more with the available space, safety (against robbery, thieves, etc...) and freedom to do whatever you want! The factors for ''livability'' differ per person, unlike some people try to suggest!

Last edited by snowdog; April 9th, 2013 at 12:23 AM.
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Old April 8th, 2013, 04:17 PM   #9192
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Are there any renders for the new A27 (with the roof)? I consider myself to be a green person, but to me it sounds like a reasonable plan if the widened road is going to be covered. it would be fantastic if the two wood areas of amelisweerd could be connected again.
There are no renders yet because the project is still in design phase, which draws more public attention than the average road project. I agree it would be better if there were some good renders. Luckily the Dutch media picked up the fact that loss of trees will be compensated threefold and a roof will be build across the motorway, two aspects completely ignored by the usual anti-widening rhetoric.

A roof across the motorway is not possible on the existing structure, because it was never built to support such a roof.
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Old April 9th, 2013, 07:20 PM   #9193
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Diffractor: the answer to noise barriers?

A new innovation by the University of Twente is the diffractor, a concrete strip with hollow tubes along the roadside that reflects roadway noise in a different direction. They claim it can reduce noise by as much as 3 or 4 dB. It appears to be a very simple and cost-effective solution. They state that it is chiefly effective with tire noise, which eliminates their use in urban areas, where traffic speeds are low and engine noise is dominant. But it can be a good solution along non-urban roads and motorways.

A pilot project will begin this year at the N314 bypass at Hummelo, Gelderland province.

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Old April 9th, 2013, 09:10 PM   #9194
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Sounds interesting but I'm not sure it will work that good.
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Old April 9th, 2013, 09:46 PM   #9195
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The diffractor sounds very interesting indeed I hope we can get rid of the noise barriers as they disturb the scenary in most cases.

I hope I'm not the only one who noticed the numberplate (69 xxx)
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Old April 10th, 2013, 03:29 PM   #9196
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Nice photo of A2 and the new Zuid-Willemsvaart canal bypass at 's-Hertogenbosch.


more at De Fotograaf

The new canal bypass also includes several new and widened bridges in the area. For example they will build a 4-lane bridge for N279 and a new grade-separated interchange, in anticipation of the general N279 widening to 2x2 lanes.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 03:34 PM   #9197
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I always felt that Californian highway was a bit much for little 's-Hertogenbosch. How did that happen? Is it a major intersection?
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Old April 10th, 2013, 03:55 PM   #9198
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There was a hype in the mid-2000s amongst politicians to build local-express systems around every larger city. Distribution of traffic around 's-Hertogenbosch is uneven, the local lanes are overcrowded while the express lanes have a lot of spare capacity.

Local-express systems can make sense, but often it results in higher construction cost, a larger right-of-way and uneven distribution of traffic. It's also a problem with operations, especially roadworks.
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Old April 10th, 2013, 05:17 PM   #9199
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A12 Galecopper Bridge, Utrecht

The € 80 million renovation of the Galecopper Bridge in Utrecht has been tendered to KWS Infra. The multi-year project consists of various phases. Most works in 2013 will be below the bridge deck. The bridge will also be jacked up by 70 centimeters to allow shipping with additional clearance. The bridge deck will be renovated in 2014-2015. The renovated bridge should be able to handle traffic up until at least 2045.

The Galecopper Bridge was built between 1971 and 1976 and replaced an earlier arch bridge from the 1930s. It carries 12 lanes of the A12 motorway. It is the second-busiest bridge in the Netherlands with 220 000 vehicles per day.

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Old April 10th, 2013, 05:59 PM   #9200
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Nice, I hope they find a way to minimize chaos though, I can already imagine what chaos will happen if all the traffic is sent to the local lanes, the A12 express lanes there are busy as they are!
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