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Old September 15th, 2013, 12:21 AM   #9741
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What's wrong with it?
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Old September 15th, 2013, 05:52 PM   #9742
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Yeah, above example from USA is better than NL one few posts higher. You just don't need to have road numbers written over every lane (or destinations as in Switzerland, whi9ch is even worse).
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Old September 15th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #9743
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If you don't post road numbers between every arrow, you need to post them elsewhere. If you post them next to the destinations, it will bring the sign visually out of alignment and harder to read due to symbolic clutter among text. If you put it between just two arrows, it looks weird if there are 3 lanes with a road number between one half of the lanes, but not the other. If you put the road number below or above the destinations, it unnecessarily increases cost, weight and wind force.

It makes perfect sense to put the road number between the arrows. We should dump the E-numbers though, the signs appear much better on the eye with just one road number color.
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Old September 15th, 2013, 06:17 PM   #9744
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(photoshop)



I dont know if this is better?
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Old September 15th, 2013, 06:34 PM   #9745
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I would go with something like that:



Same area as the original but better used, and the arrows are kept free (which I always like). I think the message that all lanes go to the same place is still clear.


I was kidding about the sign giving no info, since it was probably joined with an exit sign (as it is). I actually like a lot German-styled signs which give a precise information for every lane, but in this case it seemed just a bit overengineered.
Since it just signals a regular exit, and not lanes splitting, I would have kept just the exit sign, as it was*.

* not exactly the right one
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Old September 15th, 2013, 06:36 PM   #9746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
I would have kept just the exit sign, as it was.
No, that is not how it was. This is how it was.
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Old September 15th, 2013, 06:40 PM   #9747
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Yep, I edited but still I'm not sure I'd use the main sign...

In my driving experience, I never look at the main sign, I just look at the exit once; but I'm usually aware of where the heck I am going
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Old September 15th, 2013, 07:15 PM   #9748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
If you don't post road numbers between every arrow, you need to post them elsewhere. If you post them next to the destinations, it will bring the sign visually out of alignment and harder to read due to symbolic clutter among text. If you put it between just two arrows, it looks weird if there are 3 lanes with a road number between one half of the lanes, but not the other. If you put the road number below or above the destinations, it unnecessarily increases cost, weight and wind force.

It makes perfect sense to put the road number between the arrows. We should dump the E-numbers though, the signs appear much better on the eye with just one road number color.
In France (as you presumably know), they put the route numbers on separate plates at the top of the sign assembly. Don't you do that with E-numbers? I'm not sure that's really esthetically pleasing but it works.... Just thinking out loud.

I offered that American example not for the details (not to suggest that you adopt American-style route shields, for example), just as an alternative to the choice that had been set up in the thread between having the route numbers appear multiple times and "alle rijstroken," which I'm sure even aswnl would agree is not helpful to people "from abroad," at least from farther abroad than the northern half of Belgium. ;-)
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Old September 15th, 2013, 07:26 PM   #9749
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Yep, I edited but still I'm not sure I'd use the main sign...

In my driving experience, I never look at the main sign, I just look at the exit once; but I'm usually aware of where the heck I am going
[New post because it's an afterthought]

So your objection (if "objection"'s not too strong a word) is having a pull-through sign at all - by which I mean a sort of reminder of where the main road is going? In that case I should point out that on the American sign I chose (and I didn't look for that particular point, just did an image search for good examples of what I had in mind about arrow and route-marker placement), neither is technically an exit: 80 and 294 at that point have been together for a few miles and are diverging. In the national scheme of things, 80 is of course the more important of the two; at that particular spot, 294 is a half-beltway around Chicago and presumably carrying more traffic. (Also, the combined 80/294 up to this point and then the rest of 294 are part of the Illinois Tollway system, while 80 is exiting the Tollway here.)
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Old September 15th, 2013, 08:04 PM   #9750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
In France (as you presumably know), they put the route numbers on separate plates at the top of the sign assembly. Don't you do that with E-numbers? I'm not sure that's really esthetically pleasing but it works.... Just thinking out loud.
We used to (and still do sometimes) that with E-numbers. However, these tabs are apparently a significant disadvantage for the road authority compared to integration on signs for technical reasons. It was one of the main considerations to integrate E-numbers into the signs, and not on a tab.

I'm not a fan of integrated E-numbers. The additional color makes the sign messy, especially if repeated so many times. It is also information almost no motorist use. You can't rely on E-numbers when driving through Europe.
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Old September 15th, 2013, 08:14 PM   #9751
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What was the reason (in the Netherlands) for putting the E-numbers on a separate tab? Were they just sort of tacked onto existing signs? It seems to me that if you're going to have more than one number on the sign (which doesn't bother me, as an American roadgeek) you ought to have them together.
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Old September 15th, 2013, 08:22 PM   #9752
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Some macroeconomic figures were released today. Tuesday is "prinsjesdag", the day that the government unveils the budget for the next year. It will include a "cutback" of € 6 billion (on an annual budget of € 249 billion). Investment in infrastructure will grow from 1.6% to 1.7% of GDP. The exact budget will be released Tuesday, or earlier if they leak out to the press (which usually happens). The 2013 road budget is € 2.7 billion, the 2014 budget will likely be around that figure. Government expenditure is 50.4% of GDP.

Some of the measures to reduce the deficit were already known, such as a 3 cent increase of fuel duty on diesel and a 7 cent increase of fuel duty on LPG. The car ownership tax exemption for owners of oldtimers (vehicles over 25 years of age) will be scrapped as well.

The infrastructure fund will not see yet another budget cut, and remains untouched for the 2014 budget, after being cut by a couple hundred million per year in the 2012 and 2013 budgets (sounds little, but it's a significant percentage). Many road projects have already been postponed by a number of years. Some of these are shovel-ready.
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Old September 15th, 2013, 08:43 PM   #9753
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A2 's-Hertogenbosch - Eindhoven

New update of the A2 widening between 's-Hertogenbosch and Eindhoven, by Koef.

Unfortunately they ruined the landscaping near Best. The motorway was nicely fit in the environment when it was constructed 17 years ago, but noise-mitigation caused a "Berlin Wall"-like look.



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Old September 15th, 2013, 09:35 PM   #9754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
So your objection (if "objection"'s not too strong a word) is having a pull-through sign at all - by which I mean a sort of reminder of where the main road is going?
I would not use "main road signs" (or at least use smaller ones) when the next exit is just a minor road/city.
I would still use them (and in full size, for all lanes) when lanes split, itineraries are diverging (as in the 80/294 case), at junctions with other highways, or simply when the exit leads to a decently important road.

Maybe it is because here, until recent years,we never used serious signs to give that kind of information, so I'm not used to need it.

Example: https://maps.google.ch/?hl=en&ll=44....12,134,,0,6.91

To me it's pretty clear that the two main lanes will just go on. Actually it would be even without that sign

But I understand the average driver is not so aware of the ranking of the roads, and might be in doubt if he has to take a minor exit in the middle of the countryside to reach "Amsterdam" so those signs have probably their meaning.
IF they are needed, I'd make them big and complete, too.

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I'm not a fan of integrated E-numbers. The additional color makes the sign messy, especially if repeated so many times. It is also information almost no motorist use. You can't rely on E-numbers when driving through Europe.
Me neither. Road numbering should be consistent and not redundant, so double-numbering roads is just confusing.
Since the whole EU motorway network is too vast and complicated to be classified (every single stretch) with a unique E-xxx number, better having separate systems, consistent on their own.

Today sat nav systems do just fine for people who don't remember the whole path's numbers...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Unfortunately they ruined the landscaping near Best. The motorway was nicely fit in the environment when it was constructed 17 years ago, but noise-mitigation caused a "Berlin Wall"-like look.
One day we will spend a load of money to remove those hideous things...
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Old September 15th, 2013, 09:56 PM   #9755
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
New update of the A2 widening between 's-Hertogenbosch and Eindhoven, by Koef.
Where is the traffic going in the other direction?
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Old September 15th, 2013, 10:01 PM   #9756
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Alternate routes. They only close down motorways for a weekend, and usually only in one direction. Traffic is detoured via either A58-N65 or A50-A59. The density of the Dutch motorway network allows for weekend closures without major traffic impacts. It also helps many corridors were widened, so they are better able to handle detouring traffic. They also use free train tickets on that corridor, but these are generally not a success, too few people use them. For example, there were about 100 motorists that used free train tickets when they were reconstructing the A28 near Zwolle. 100 fewer cars on 130 000 cars per day is nothing of course.
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Old September 16th, 2013, 12:08 PM   #9757
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Since we're all photoshopping, this is what I would do if I were in a charge.



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Old September 16th, 2013, 12:53 PM   #9758
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Since we're all photoshopping, this is what I would do if I were in a charge.



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The only problem is that I would see some people using the 2 outer lanes on each side because that is the A4, with other people only using the middle lane because that says "Schiphol".

And yes people are that stupid...
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Old September 16th, 2013, 02:54 PM   #9759
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The whole idea of good signage is consistency and predictability. You can't pull this layout off at a two-lane carriageway overhead sign.
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Old September 16th, 2013, 02:59 PM   #9760
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These new Dutch signs does not come under the definition of good signposting imo. Way too much information, with every exit an exit number, route number and locations placed all together...
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