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Old September 16th, 2013, 07:55 PM   #9761
Surel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da_scotty View Post
The only problem is that I would see some people using the 2 outer lanes on each side because that is the A4, with other people only using the middle lane because that says "Schiphol".

And yes people are that stupid...
Nah, the current state has Schiphol also only on the middle lane. Its true what Chris says about consistency though. On the other side, flexibility is also important when it increases the overall readability, which in this case I would think.

In other words, being consistent in this case hinders the communication instead of helping it.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 04:25 PM   #9762
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A16 Moerdijk Bridge

Replacing bridge segments during the weekends of 1977.

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Old September 17th, 2013, 04:32 PM   #9763
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Now there's something you don't see every day. It does make you wonder if the pillars don't need replacing or reinforcing...
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Old September 17th, 2013, 04:59 PM   #9764
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2014 budget

The 2014 national road budget will be € 2.8 billion. This is up from € 2.49 billion in 2013, but it should be noted the budget fluctuates substantially every year. The 2015 road budget is only € 2.1 billion and € 1.76 billion in 2016. It will go up in 2017 at € 2.3 billion and 2018 at € 2.2 billion. Nonetheless, there is a clear downward trend in the road budget, it was over € 3 billion in 2011. However, it will go up after 2018, the 2020 road budget is € 3.4 billion under current plans.

The 2014 budget for construction is € 1.2 billion, plus € 590 million for PPP payments. The 2016 budget however only sees € 479 million in construction and € 459 million in PPP payments. There will be a lull in highway construction around 2016. Many large projects are not expected to start until 2018 and most current large projects will be completed by 2015.

The 2014 budget for maintenance is € 625 million. The budget for Rijkswaterstaat is € 407 million.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 08:27 PM   #9765
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Just € 407 million to take care of all water management, drainage and protection systems?
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Old September 17th, 2013, 08:30 PM   #9766
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No that is another € 1.2 billion, from the "Delta Fund", which pays for coastal protection and river management (expanding floodplains, etc). The € 407 million figure is for the road and waterwork authority operational costs (planning, personnel, etc). Water infrastructure (canals, sluices) have a budget of € 895 million that is part of the Infrastructure Fund. The Delta Fund is not considered transportation infrastructure, although it used to be funded from the Infrastructure Fund prior to 2011.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 09:42 PM   #9767
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Old September 18th, 2013, 04:18 PM   #9768
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A10 North

Yesterday it rained enormously





This image caused lot of comments, the people who accompanied me were afraid of a prent



But this prent is not for CJIB, it's just for SSC!!
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Old September 19th, 2013, 08:20 AM   #9769
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Automated parking facility in A'dam:

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Old September 20th, 2013, 02:31 PM   #9770
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taxation

The government taxed motorists € 20 billion last year, a study by BOVAG and RAI show.

The national government levied € 17.6 billion in taxes, while provincial governments had a revenue of € 1.5 billion in road-related taxes. An additional € 600 million was the revenue of parking fees levied by municipalities.

At the same time, only 25% of that was reinvested in infrastructure, and half of that in roads. The 2012 expenditure on infrastructure, including railways, was € 5.2 billion. The 2013 road budget is € 2.7 billion.

Car owners paid € 2141 in taxes per registered vehicle last year. This is two times the monthly net minimum wage.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 03:47 PM   #9771
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How is it going with the introduction of distance based taxation / tolling?
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Old September 20th, 2013, 03:48 PM   #9772
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How is it going with the introduction of distance based taxation / tolling?
It's basically completely off the table.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 05:28 PM   #9773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The government taxed motorists € 20 billion last year, a study by BOVAG and RAI show.

The national government levied € 17.6 billion in taxes, while provincial governments had a revenue of € 1.5 billion in road-related taxes. An additional € 600 million was the revenue of parking fees levied by municipalities.

At the same time, only 25% of that was reinvested in infrastructure, and half of that in roads. The 2012 expenditure on infrastructure, including railways, was € 5.2 billion. The 2013 road budget is € 2.7 billion.

Car owners paid € 2141 in taxes per registered vehicle last year. This is two times the monthly net minimum wage.
I kind of have a problem with this sort of statement.

First off:
A sector of the economy (in this case the automotive sector) is not really designed to be budget-neutral from a tax perspective. So why complain about this 'only 25% gets reinvested in infrastructure'?

The government levies taxes on pretty much everything. It gets billions in sales taxes levied on food. Should that go back to farmers? It taxes tobacco and alcohol heavily, should that be used to support the tobacco and alcohol industry? I think there are other sectors (like education and health care) that could use this money better. Thinking in income and expenditure per sector does not work, they are two separate things.

Second:
The numbers above are added up to show that cars are very lucrative for the government. That is indeed true.

But when they say that only 25% of the money is reinvested in infrastructure, they are referring to the road budget of Rijkswaterstaat (national level). BUT on the provincial and municipal level, a lot of money is also spent on roads, streets, parking, lighting, etc. So on the expense side, a lot is left out (and would be very hard to calculate).

Third, about the numbers:
The bulk of the tax income are 'accijns' (excise), 'BPM', and 'car tax' (road tax) these are EXTRA taxes levied over fossil fuels, new cars, and owning a car respectively. If you have a problem with these taxes, I understand that, and you can have a discussion about that. It's these EXTRA taxes that make the car so profitable for the government.

- Accijns (excise): €7,7 billion
- BPM: €1,5 billion
- Car tax (road tax): €3,6 billion

So if you want to have a discussion about tax, I think it should be about these three numbers.

Some side-notes regarding the numbers:
- €3,6 billion of the tax income is sales tax (VAT) over car-related consumer spending;
- €765 million is traffic fines (not including parking tickets), something I would not call a tax, and would be easily avoided;
- €900 million is insurance tax, something I also pay over my home- and other insurances;
- The numbers include tax from trucks and professionally used cars. This skews the 'tax per car' number quite a bit. I own a car, and can assure you that I did not pay €2.141 in taxes last year.

Last edited by woutero; September 20th, 2013 at 06:28 PM. Reason: Edited to include the terms 'Excise' and 'VAT'
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Old September 20th, 2013, 05:52 PM   #9774
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But when they say that only 25% of the money is reinvested in infrastructure, they are referring to the road budget of Rijkswaterstaat (national level).
No, the 25% is the complete spending of money on both roads and rail. The Rijkswaterstaat road budget is not 25% of the € 20 billion, but only 13.5%.

Quote:
BUT on the provincial and municipal level, a lot of money is also spent on roads, streets, parking, lighting, etc. So on the expense side, a lot is left out (and would be very hard to calculate).
I think you overestimate the expenditure on roads by provinces and municipalities. First of all, major provincial and municipal road projects are co-funded by the national government (examples: Rotterdamsebaan & Rijnlandroute). Second, most provinces have very low road budgets, most of them a two-digit million figure. Only 2 or 3 provinces spend more than € 100 million per year on maintenance and expansion of their roads. For example, Overijssel has a road budget of € 50 million. That is a far cry from the Rijkswaterstaat budget.

Municipal road budgets are very small, a city of 100.000 people hardly spends more than € 15 million per year on roads. Most roads in new developments are paid for by local taxes.

Quote:
- The numbers include tax from trucks and professionally used cars. This skews the 'tax per car' number quite a bit. I own a car, and can assure you that I did not pay €2.141 in taxes last year.
If you include the BPM (car purchase tax, which is around 45% of the market value), it would be a lot higher, but you pay that only once. € 2141 is the average amount of taxes paid per registered motor vehicle. 50% of the people pay more than that, and 50% pay less. If you drive 20 000 kilometers per year and you drive on gasoline (12 km/L), you can easily pay € 1500 in fuel taxes (both excise and VAT) per year. Add the MRB road tax, and BPM car tax to that, and € 2141 is not really an uncommon figure (unfortunately).

Trucks are actually not heavily taxed, the road tax on a heavy 4+ axle truck is similar to a regular family diesel car. For example the road tax on a 4+ axle truck with Euro 2 emission standard or higher is € 1250 per year. The road tax for a 1300 kg diesel car in Noord-Holland is € 1280 per year.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 06:21 PM   #9775
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€ 2141 is the average amount of taxes paid per registered motor vehicle. 50% of the people pay more than that, and 50% pay less.
Careful! This is the definition of median, not average.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 06:21 PM   #9776
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Is VAT included? I think that VAT should not be included as it is really not sector specific tax.

I would include, all road taxes, fines, all traffic related excise taxes.

I don't think that traffic fossil fuel excise taxes have to be fully returned to the roads infrastructure, but I would agree that a bigger part should be returned to infrastructure projects and investments.

btw. imagine that fossil fuels will be replaced by solar/wind etc generated electricity... will we have to introduce new excise taxes to fill the gap? .
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Old September 20th, 2013, 06:23 PM   #9777
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No, the 25% is the complete spending of money on both roads and rail. The Rijkswaterstaat road budget is not 25% of the € 20 billion, but only 13.5%.
Ah, I missed the 'rail' part. But I highly doubt that €422 mln includes all regional and local infrastructure, Including city streets, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I think you overestimate the expenditure on roads by provinces and municipalities. First of all, major provincial and municipal road projects are co-funded by the national government (examples: Rotterdamsebaan & Rijnlandroute). Second, most provinces have very low road budgets, most of them a two-digit million figure. Only 2 or 3 provinces spend more than € 100 million per year on maintenance and expansion of their roads. For example, Overijssel has a road budget of € 50 million. That is a far cry from the Rijkswaterstaat budget.

Municipal road budgets are very small, a city of 100.000 people hardly spends more than € 15 million per year on roads. Most roads in new developments are paid for by local taxes.
My point is that they went quite far to find all income generated by cars. But that same car has to go into a residential street, find a parking spot, etc. If a city of 100.000 spends €15 mln/yr, that would add up to about €2,5 billion for the entire country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
If you include the BPM (car purchase tax, which is around 45% of the market value), it would be a lot higher, but you pay that only once. € 2141 is the average amount of taxes paid per registered motor vehicle. 50% of the people pay more than that, and 50% pay less. If you drive 20 000 kilometers per year and you drive on gasoline (12 km/L), you can easily pay € 1500 in fuel taxes (both excise and VAT) per year. Add the MRB road tax, and BPM car tax to that, and € 2141 is not really an uncommon figure (unfortunately).

Trucks are actually not heavily taxed, the road tax on a heavy 4+ axle truck is similar to a regular family diesel car. For example the road tax on a 4+ axle truck with Euro 2 emission standard or higher is € 1250 per year. The road tax for a 1300 kg diesel car in Noord-Holland is € 1280 per year.
Yeah, I guess I am paying a lot in taxes... But don't you think that most of the €4,1 billion in Diesel+LPG tax (excise + VAT) is generated by trucks?
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Old September 20th, 2013, 07:19 PM   #9778
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I agree that VAT should be excluded, because it's a general tax. However, VAT is both levied on the excise duty and the market price of fuel. It's a tax on a tax.

The point is, motoring has turned into a giant cash cow, and it naturally finds more and more opposition. That's also the reason why nobody wants a kilometer charge in exchange for other taxes being reduced. Nobody believes that they would be paying less or the same as they do today. People don't trust the government when it comes to taxation on motoring.

The Dutch excise duty is not a percentage of the fuel price, but a fixed amount per liter. Even if gasoline was to be entirely free, we'd still be paying around € 0.90 per liter. And excise duty is not only adjusted to CPI (inflation), but it continues to be raised on top of that. The gas tax increases faster than inflation, creating inflation on its own because it's a heavily used commodity.

Trucks are responsible for most of the diesel tax revenue. This is because the road tax is so expensive, a very small proportion of the car fleet are diesel cars in the Netherlands, compared to other countries in the region.
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Old September 20th, 2013, 07:33 PM   #9779
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Apparently the Dutch are missing out on revenues generated from truck diesel, as they all fill up their trucks abroad...
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Old September 20th, 2013, 07:41 PM   #9780
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For a thing, I think per-volume taxes on fuel are better than % taxes over time, as it smooths retail prices and reduces the short-term impact of fluctuations on oil prices.

The fun thing to think of is that if public transport hardcore activists, the ones that sees personal vehicles as "the enemy" or at least something to be "phased out", got their way (with more taxes on private mobility), and if massive numbers of people turned to public transportation instead, the system would collapse as they'd not have money from drivers to fund costly operations of city transit.

I read once in 2011 that my city (pop. 202.300, 7 city bus lines (stadbuswith max weekday headway of 15 min) has a farebox recovery rate of 31%. Bus lines serving smaller nearby towns that act as suburbs for the biggest regional cities had a rate of less than 20%.
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