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Old September 21st, 2013, 04:45 AM   #9781
Surel
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I read once in 2011 that my city (pop. 202.300, 7 city bus lines (stadbuswith max weekday headway of 15 min) has a farebox recovery rate of 31%. Bus lines serving smaller nearby towns that act as suburbs for the biggest regional cities had a rate of less than 20%.
Would you know, or guess, what is the share of the total costs, thus all associated costs, of the collecting the fare? If the costs of collecting the fare would be substantial, it would be making more sense to have a free city public transport.

With costs of collecting the fare are meant all associated costs, technology, employees, associated accounting, etc.
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Old September 21st, 2013, 06:17 AM   #9782
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Would you know, or guess, what is the share of the total costs, thus all associated costs, of the collecting the fare? If the costs of collecting the fare would be substantial, it would be making more sense to have a free city public transport.

With costs of collecting the fare are meant all associated costs, technology, employees, associated accounting, etc.
I don't know, but fare collection is done electronically with the OV Chipkaart. The province/city keeps all money collected, and pay a contracted fee to the provider (Veolia Brabant). I don't think fare collection is costly since they tailgate on the national public transportation fare collection system.
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Old September 21st, 2013, 01:15 PM   #9783
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A10, Amsterdam

The new MIRT 2014 has been published. The MIRT is the official planning document that contains each major infrastructure project, including roads, rail and water infrastructure (not water protection).

Interestingly, the "Zuidas" project, that would bring A10 in Amsterdam underground, has been split into separate projects, namely the reconstruction of the Amstel (A2/A10) and De Nieuwe Meer (A4/A10) interchanges, and the tunnel project itself. People have been wondering if this may lead to the postponing or cancellation of the A10 tunnel plans.

Opposition against the project seems to be mounting, because it would cost hundreds of millions without having much benefits. The idea is that the motorway would be underground, improving the livability of this area. The former idea was to bring the rail infrastructure underground as well, but this has proven to be too expensive, it would've been paid for by real estate development, but the truth is the Netherlands has massive vacancy rates for office buildings, currently at 7 million square meters (the average floor area per office employee is 7 m², which means there is a vacancy of 1 million office jobs).

A large share of office space along this corridor is vacant, questioning the long-term need of this project, especially if the motorway will just be replaced by an even wider rail corridor, turning this "livable office center" into a busy rail yard, and also questioning the projected large increase in passengers at the Amsterdam-zuid railway station, which would require expansion of the station.

The project cost for rebuilding the interchanges is € 332 million. The cost for bringing the motorway underground and expanding the railway station is € 1.4 billion. That is a lot of money for a project whose necessity can be seriously questioned, especially in this time of budget cuts.
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Old September 21st, 2013, 10:22 PM   #9784
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Thanks for keeping us updated ChrisZwolle, I really appreciate it!
Do you know if there are any plans for the A20, the ring road, in Rotterdam? To me it looks like the road expansion projects are focussed on Amsterdam/Utrecht. The only development in the Rotterdam area, as far as I know is A4 Delfland. It looks a bit like the southern Randstad area is a bit secondary if it comes to road works
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Old September 21st, 2013, 10:27 PM   #9785
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The only development in the Rotterdam area, as far as I know is A4 Delfland. It looks a bit like the southern Randstad area is a bit secondary if it comes to road works
How about the widening of the A15?

There's the A13-A16 ([email protected] - Berkel en [email protected]), but nothing very concrete there...
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Old September 21st, 2013, 10:39 PM   #9786
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The Rotterdam area has indeed seen fewer investments in roads than Amsterdam and Utrecht, though The Hague has gotten less than Rotterdam, but it's hard to argue that The Hague actually has a "network" of motorways like the other cities.

Construction on the A13-A16 link is planned to begin in 2017. The budget is € 964 million, including € 254 million in toll revenue. Another major project at that time will be the construction of the A24 Blankenburg Tunnel, which will also be tolled to pay € 300 million in construction cost back. I estimate both projects could be toll free after 10 or 12 years (likely around 2031-2033). This "Norwegian approach" with combined tax and toll funding is new in the Netherlands and will also be applied to A15 east of Nijmegen.
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Old September 21st, 2013, 11:37 PM   #9787
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N676 near Schoondijke, Zeeland province, has very high hectometer pole numbering. It used to be part of rijksweg 58 and the hectometering was continued even on a new alignment (Schoondijke bypass, which will open in a week or two).

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[N61][N676] Rondweg Schoondijke 9 by EtienneMuis, on Flickr
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Old September 21st, 2013, 11:50 PM   #9788
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I haven't paid a lot of attention to Dutch route numbering, but is 676 a rather high number?
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Old September 21st, 2013, 11:52 PM   #9789
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N61 Schoondijke

The first small segment of the reconstructed N61 will open to traffic soon in Zeeland province, together with the N676 bypass of Schoondijke. The new N61 will feature a median, and a few passing lanes after roundabouts. Grade-separation was considered "horizon pollution", so it's not a full expressway, but it does have expressway status with a 100 km/h speed limit.

The speed limit is indicated at every round kilometer of the hectometer poles.
image hosted on flickr

[N61][N676] Rondweg Schoondijke by EtienneMuis, on Flickr

These passing lanes will give you the option to bypass some of the omnipresent slow tourists.
image hosted on flickr

[N61][N676] Rondweg Schoondijke by EtienneMuis, on Flickr

Expressway sign.
image hosted on flickr

[N61][N676] Rondweg Schoondijke by EtienneMuis, on Flickr

The road layout here is 2+1. However, it is not consistently 2+1, most stretches have 2x1 lanes.
image hosted on flickr

[N61][N676] Rondweg Schoondijke by EtienneMuis, on Flickr

Zipper merge after 300 m. Perhaps they should turn this into a pictogram as well. Most foreigners probably don't know what "ritsen" means.
image hosted on flickr

[N61][N676] Rondweg Schoondijke by EtienneMuis, on Flickr

They've constructed a parallel road for slow traffic.
image hosted on flickr

[N61][N676] Rondweg Schoondijke by EtienneMuis, on Flickr

Typical layout of the new N61, with 2x1 lanes and frequent stopping niches.
image hosted on flickr

[N61][N676] Rondweg Schoondijke by EtienneMuis, on Flickr

As you can see these are not parking areas.
image hosted on flickr

[N61][N676] Rondweg Schoondijke 23 by EtienneMuis, on Flickr
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Old September 21st, 2013, 11:59 PM   #9790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
I haven't paid a lot of attention to Dutch route numbering, but is 676 a rather high number?
Yes. Numbering goes up to 999, but not all numbers are used.

The numbering is as follows;

* 0-99: these are national roads, and are mostly motorways.
* 100-399: these are primary provincial roads. Few numbers between 100 and 200 are used, 200-399 is the main numbering of provincial roads. A few are provincial motorways.
* 400-999: these are secondary provincial roads. They are generally short and most numbers are not signposted.

The numbers are generally clustered in groups;

* N196-N299: western, central & southern Netherlands
* N300-N399: eastern, central & northern Netherlands
* N400-N499: Zuid-Holland & Utrecht
* N500-N599: Noord-Holland & Limburg (weird combo)
* N600-N699: Noord-Brabant & Zeeland
* N700-N799: Flevoland & Overijssel
* N800-N899: Gelderland & Drenthe
* N900-N999: Friesland & Groningen

Out of the 999 possible routes, 586 are actually used or recently decomissioned. Sometimes N400+ numbers get entirely decomissioned, after being transferred from provincial authority to municipal authority. Although municipalities do administer numbered roads, they are usually part of a longer route. (for example, N35 & N337 are signposted, while being administered by the municipality of Zwolle within city limits).

Interestingly, the prefix N does not mean "national road" like in most other countries with N-roads, but it means "non-motorway". You can see how mobility in the Netherlands has always evolved around motorways, it's even reflected in the numbering. The Netherlands does not have a good secondary road network like in France or Germany. It would be extremely time-consuming to drive between larger cities without using motorways.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; September 22nd, 2013 at 12:24 AM.
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 12:28 AM   #9791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Zipper merge after 300 m. Perhaps they should turn this into a pictogram as well. Most foreigners probably don't know what "ritsen" means.
image hosted on flickr

[N61][N676] Rondweg Schoondijke by EtienneMuis, on Flickr
Merging is still merging, so why don't they just put "300 m" without the text?

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Typical layout of the new N61, with 2x1 lanes and frequent stopping niches.
image hosted on flickr

[N61][N676] Rondweg Schoondijke by EtienneMuis, on Flickr
With all that space, why not just build 2+1 like we do in Sweden? Seems very strange to have such a wide barrier when you can have passing lanes instead, especially since traffic is quite dense in the Netherlands.
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 12:31 AM   #9792
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With all that space, why not just build 2+1 like we do in Sweden?
Basically because we are idiots...

It probably seen as unsafe and it gives cars an overtaking oppurtunity, which is something that is not done in NL or something like that... Overtaking on 2-lane roads is becoming less and less possible (double solid lines everywhere... ). And when building a 1+1 road they don't even consider passing lanes most of the time!
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 12:42 AM   #9793
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I grew up near that road and let me just say you really don't need 2x2 there and as you move further West, 2+1 is pretty superfluous as well. There's a dedicated road for slow traffic on the side which takes care of the tractors and other assorted agricultural vehicles. Once you get those out of the way, an overtaking lane in that particular part of the country (with a shrinking population) is just unnecessary. Especially when we're cutting the budgets.
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 12:46 AM   #9794
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I grew up near that road and let me just say you really don't need 2x2 there.
Where is anyone saying that 2x2 is necessary?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
There's a dedicated road for slow traffic on the side which takes care of the tractors and other assorted agricultural vehicles. Once you get those out of the way, an overtaking lane in that particular part of the country (with a shrinking population) is just unnecessary.
We're talking about 2+1 here. Which comes in very handy, certainly here, with slow tourists (mainly) in the summer months.


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Especially when we're cutting the budgets.
??

Dude, the space is there... You just need 5 layers of asphalt and some road markings... That really isn't going to strain the budget.
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 12:59 AM   #9795
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It's not Saint-Tropez, you know. There's not that many tourists and they're only there when the locals are on vacation in near the Mediterranean.
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 02:56 AM   #9796
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It's not Saint-Tropez, you know. There's not that many tourists and they're only there when the locals are on vacation in near the Mediterranean.
Bah, last time I was in Zeeland ( drove to Renesse from Rotterdam, and back a week later) the road was full of morons driving 70 where 80 is allowed, or 80 where 100 was allowed in the middle of the night on an otherwise deserted road, no reason at all to behave like a bloody slow***.

Needless to say, I ignored the double white lines a couple of times . I was afraid at first but after seeing some cars overtake me ( and the person in front of me I was stuck behind) I thought ''meh if the locals do it I'll follow''.

But, yes, overtaking is not ''neccessary'', but it would help with a lot of stress on the road from slow drivers and trucks, what driver doesn't prefer driving over a 2x2 road instead of 2x1 even with low traffic ?
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 11:14 AM   #9797
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Traffic in that area is actually growing, not declining. But the annual average volumes are not that high to require 2x2 lanes urgently, except for the part closer to Terneuzen, which carries 19 000 vehicles per day. It's mostly 13 000 - 14 000 vpd further west. Not extremely busy, but certainly not a deserted road.

The right-of-way seems wide enough to allow a later conversion to 2x2 lanes though.
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 06:10 PM   #9798
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Just a picture of the N670 towards Yerseke (Zeeland Province). In the background the Postbrug.

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Old September 23rd, 2013, 07:48 AM   #9799
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Old September 23rd, 2013, 02:10 PM   #9800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Traffic in that area is actually growing, not declining. But the annual average volumes are not that high to require 2x2 lanes urgently, except for the part closer to Terneuzen, which carries 19 000 vehicles per day. It's mostly 13 000 - 14 000 vpd further west. Not extremely busy, but certainly not a deserted road.

The right-of-way seems wide enough to allow a later conversion to 2x2 lanes though.
- Here in Spain we have a lot 2x2 motorways with less traffic than 14 000 vehicles per day. You don't think with that traffic is not necessary a motorway now?

And other question with other fact:

- How many new motorways are under construction in Holland? (not extending existing motorways, but new ones)
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