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Old January 29th, 2014, 07:01 AM   #10381
Surel
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But still, they should change it on the roundabouts to sign system that the drivers are actually able to see without having to move their head to left.

I.e. coming to a roundabout a driver sees signs to left and right, but in no way is he able to see what is on the sign for the straight direction. The situation is visible on the photos above and afaik did not change.
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Old January 29th, 2014, 12:53 PM   #10382
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And how exactly would we implement that? A roundabout has people coming at it from 4 different directions (usually), you're proposing a right forest of signs...
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Old January 29th, 2014, 01:44 PM   #10383
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Hmm the normal solution is to place signs on the exits, like this:

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Old January 29th, 2014, 01:53 PM   #10384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post


But still, they should change it on the roundabouts to sign system that the drivers are actually able to see without having to move their head to left.

I.e. coming to a roundabout a driver sees signs to left and right, but in no way is he able to see what is on the sign for the straight direction. The situation is visible on the photos above and afaik did not change.
Yes, that's the usual problem I've always found on Dutch roundabouts: the central pole system is not good enough for marking straight directions.

Maybe with the new rectangular shape, you can just mark those straight directions easier as you are not conditioned by the shape of the panel.

However, I prefer signs on the outer edge of the roundabout instead of the central pole system.
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Old January 29th, 2014, 02:04 PM   #10385
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The Dutch system relies more on pre-roundabout signage than roundabout signage itself. I find this a deficiency compared to other countries, but the reason not to install ground signs at roundabout exits is quite simple, it blocks the view of traffic coming onto the roundabouts, or cyclists encircling the roundabout. It is safer this way, but I agree the high-mounted signs in the center of the roundabout are not ideal.
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Old January 29th, 2014, 02:49 PM   #10386
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Too many signs will also block the view of traffic moving on the other side of the roundabout. Here in Norway we have no signs in the middle for that reason. But also because we have extremely small roundabouts compared to the traffic volume, so it's more important to have view of the entire junction as you approach.
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Old January 30th, 2014, 12:56 AM   #10387
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Maybe paint the destinations on the road? (well, works for route number at least)
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Old January 30th, 2014, 01:56 AM   #10388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
And how exactly would we implement that? A roundabout has people coming at it from 4 different directions (usually), you're proposing a right forest of signs...
It seems actually that there are some changes going on. I prefer this one - Google map, it's almost it. Or look e.g. here, but this solution is not well thought of as they don't utilize the poles for both lights and signs:



It seems however that its not yet perfect as the problem persists. The sign should be ideally 90° to the axis in which the car is approaching in the middle of the curvature between two roundabout exits. The first sign in the Google map looks like that (edit: but it is not, it is just a illusion), the other one doesn't. It could be like this, but I am not a traffic engineer:



Such elevated signs don't cause any obstructions in the traffic visibility as well. And as about the forest of poles. There have to be lights anyway, so you would actually save on the middle pole if you could utilize each pole for both things. And as I see, I have seen quite many new roundabouts being built like that (just that angle is not right still).
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Last edited by Surel; January 30th, 2014 at 02:11 AM.
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Old January 30th, 2014, 08:22 AM   #10389
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Not exactly new, but a very interesting video covering the unusual retrofit and heightening of a cable-stayed bridge on A50

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Old January 30th, 2014, 10:20 PM   #10390
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N15 Caland Bridge

The Caland Bridge in the Port of Rotterdam, near Rozenburg.

There is a study ongoing to survey the possible alternatives to replace or renovate the bridge. The bridge needs significant renovation and the mobility needs are chiefly rail-driven, because there is a motorway tunnel next to it. The bridge carries rail and local/hazmat traffic. The bridge opens frequently and impedes rail access to the western parts of the Port of Rotterdam. The most expensive but best option would be to replace the bridge with a new rail bridge to the south, but given the available funds, it will likely turn into an extensive renovation.

The Caland Bridge opened in 1969.

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Calandbrug by johan de Cocq, on Flickr
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Old January 30th, 2014, 11:09 PM   #10391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Such elevated signs don't cause any obstructions in the traffic visibility as well.
Also, cyclist are between the driver and the signs, not behind them

In general, having signs in the middle is not good for safety IMHO, the driver should keep his eyes on the outer edge of the road, not in the center of the circle.
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Old January 31st, 2014, 01:11 AM   #10392
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Quote:
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Also, cyclist are between the driver and the signs, not behind them
The grounded sign could obstruct the view to the left of the vehicles coming to the roundabout, especially on the cyclists coming from the left on the cycling path. But I also think that even a grounded sign could be placed in such a way that even this view would not be hindered.

Btw, the only other country in which I saw signs positioned parallel to the road was Italy.

Last edited by Surel; January 31st, 2014 at 01:17 AM.
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Old January 31st, 2014, 02:36 AM   #10393
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Really? Never noticed it.
In recent projects, it seems the signs are at a 45° angle, as in your drawing:
https://maps.google.ch/?hl=en&ll=45....345.78,,0,2.62

But I bet it's completely random, as usual
https://maps.google.ch/?hl=en&ll=45....,177.4,,1,6.41

Usually what obstructs my view, when entering the roundabout, is the massive barrier they use in late models.

What I never understood (and I don't like) of Dutch signs, is why are they placed so high... I have to watch the road, not the sky

Looking at the new design, I have to say that I much prefer arrow-shaped signs, and with a sharp point (as the IT ones). They need a lot less interpretation, you don't have to "read" the direction.
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Old January 31st, 2014, 05:57 PM   #10394
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N35 Zwolle - Wijthmen

The draft EIS for the widening and realignment of N35 southeast of Zwolle has been published. It's the first stage to upgrade the national road N35 southeast of Zwolle. It will be a 4.5 km, 2x2, 100 km/h expressway. It's much-needed, the current two-lane road carries 27,000 vehicles per day and ranks in the top 30 unsafest roads in the country.

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Old January 31st, 2014, 07:27 PM   #10395
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N44, Wassenaar

N44 in Wassenaar, back in 1972, just before the national road renumbering, when it was signed as N99.

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Old January 31st, 2014, 07:55 PM   #10396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
N44 in Wassenaar, back in 1972, just before the national road renumbering, when it was signed as N99.

Huh how did the former N99 run, wasn't the A(3)52 numbered N99 as well?
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Old January 31st, 2014, 07:59 PM   #10397
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The Dutch national road network was numbered since the 1930s, most of these numbers are still assigned to their original routes.

However, prior to 1976, these rijksweg road numbers were not signed. Instead, major routes with E-numbers were signed, and a select number of other routes received N-numbers that were different from the rijksweg numbers. This numbering system existed between 1957 and 1976.

They were;

N89: Groningen - Delfzijl
N90: Meppel - Heerenveen - Leeuwarden
N91: Afsluitdijk/Zurich - Joure - Emmeloord - Zwolle - Ommen - Witte Paal
N92: De Punt - Emmen - Witte Paal - Hengelo - Enschede
N93: Zwolle - Apeldoorn - Arnhem - Nijmegen - 's-Hertogenbosch - Tilburg
N94: Apeldoorn - Zutphen - Winterswijk - Duitsland
N95: Nijmegen - Venlo - Roermond - Geleen - Maastricht
N96: Ridderkerk - Gorinchem - Deil - Valburg
N97: Breda - Bergen op Zoom - Kruiningen - Vlissingen
N98: Kruiningen - Perkpolder - Hulst - België
N99: Den Haag - Leiden - Haarlem - Alkmaar - Middenmeer
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Old February 1st, 2014, 01:11 PM   #10398
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Quote:
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the current two-lane road carries 27,000 vehicles per day
Wow, that's crazy! The E4 motorway outside my town has an approximate AADT like that.

I passing allowed or even possible on that part of the N35?
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Old February 1st, 2014, 05:23 PM   #10399
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New signs have been installed at the Neerbosch motorway interchange near Nijmegen. The A73 motorway runs through a TOTSO here, but it was relatively poorly indicated that most traffic had to exit, there previously was only a fork sign on the side of the road that was easily missed if there were trucks on the right lane. They recently installed overhead signs.

The through route into Nijmegen is also a rijksweg, but an unsigned one. It has the administrative number of rijksweg 783. It ends at traffic lights about 1.5 km ahead.

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Old February 2nd, 2014, 03:49 PM   #10400
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N334 Zwartsluis - Steenwijk

I recorded the full length of the provincial road N334 today. It runs from Zwartsluis to Steenwijk, via famous Giethoorn.

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