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Old September 27th, 2014, 02:34 PM   #11321
MrAronymous
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It's not the EU that has to decide over such things. Most of those signs follow the Vienna Convention principles anyway. There's only 4 that people could have trouble understanding. But even those are not too hard to figure out when you look at the sign and the infrastructure surrounding it.
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Old September 27th, 2014, 02:47 PM   #11322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
I don't get why we don't have a EU standard for those signs...
Are nation states not entitled to decide anything for themselves anymore?
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Old September 27th, 2014, 03:26 PM   #11323
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And someone could argue: are municipalities not entitled to decide anything for themselves anymore? :-P


I could understand resistances against a main change of design (for example, adapting the Irish signs to the Vienna Convention), but this is not the case.
Since the functional design of those signs is homogeneous among many States, I just don't get what is the advantage of keeping slight tiny differences in the style.
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Old September 27th, 2014, 03:35 PM   #11324
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Are nation states not entitled to decide anything for themselves anymore?
What's the point in that? Does your nation have pride because its traffic signs design is different from the other nations? Wow. Proud people.
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Old September 27th, 2014, 03:40 PM   #11325
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It's weird that in a time of european integrations you still have different colours for different roads, different signs for the same things, different maximum speeds etc.

It's really easy to implement, but would make for a more uniform EU. It's not that I'm 100% pro EU, but somethimes you just wonder.

For example, in nearly all countries yellow signs mean roadworks, but in Germany and Sweden they are local roads. Green signs are motorways in some countries, but main interlocal roads in France and the UK/Ireland. White signs are city/neighbourhood's/points of interest in the Netherlands and Germany, but local roads in other countries.

Some uniformity wouldn't hurt anyone.
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Old September 27th, 2014, 03:40 PM   #11326
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
What's the point in that? Does your nation have pride because its traffic signs design is different from the other nations? Wow. Proud people.
It's all about making decisions. You should know this, your country has a few designs different from the rest of Europe, Mr Sarcastic...
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Old September 27th, 2014, 03:42 PM   #11327
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
It's all about making decisions. You should know this, your country has a few designs different from the rest of Europe, Mr Sarcastic...
I am not my country. I think different designs are anachronistic, not useful (more, dangerous) and frankly childish.
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Old September 27th, 2014, 03:45 PM   #11328
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Well, I'd still trust a Dutch designer better than a Italian or Belgian one .
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Old September 27th, 2014, 03:55 PM   #11329
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You're certainly more than entitled to, even though I can't see why. Well, why don't we let a Dutch designer to design all the signs in EU?
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Old September 27th, 2014, 04:02 PM   #11330
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Good idea. Italy gets this....



...replaced by this one...



But I hope that someone in Italy will point out that the congestion is probably longer than three vehicles...
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Old September 27th, 2014, 04:05 PM   #11331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Good idea. Italy gets this....



...replaced by this one...

I agree with you.

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But I hope that someone in Italy will point out that the congestion is probably longer than three vehicles...
No need to be insulting. Italians may not be your favourite people, but we do understand the concept of "symbols".
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Old September 27th, 2014, 04:06 PM   #11332
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It was a joke, my friend. Don't take everything so seriously, Italians are fine people.
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Old September 27th, 2014, 04:13 PM   #11333
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The whole point of a traffic signal is that it is instantly and broadly understood.

There should be standard signs for as much situations as possible in EU, since there is free movement of vehicles, much cross-border traffic and increased integration between countries.

Making road sign a matter of national pride for the same of having something 'unique' about a country, in the context of Schengen free movement area and EU common market, is a dumb and idiotic idea.

Specifically, I think there needs to be very clear standardized signs in Europe for signaling:

- exception (something like the opposite of having a prescriptive sign with a rectangular white board specifying to whom/when it does apply)

- the begging and end of "urban perimeter" for purpose of road regulations (speed, parking etc). Enough with different colors and shapes and positioning of such signs.

- environmental restrictions to traffic based on pollution standards. All haphazard systems like the Unweltplakkete in Germany should be prohibited, and access control should be allowed only based on a given level of EURO standard with a new sign specifying that.

- areas with access restricted, like the Italian ZTLs and the likes. There should be required gantries to signal that, and clearly visible horizontal markings, and a clear exit path that means a driver unfamiliar with the area won't find him/herself suddenly entering a restricted area with no escape from heavy fines

- bike/cycling exclusive access

- ramp meters, automated bollards and other sorts of traffic flow rationing control. There should also be a ban on those bollards that kick your car from below and damage it if you are unauthorized, these should be replaced by camera fines

- parking-other-than-free. There should be standard signs indicating whether parking is paid and accessible to anyone, or reserved to those with a permit. Colors (yellow, blue, red, white) used to mark parking should be standardized with the same meaning throughout EU.
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Old September 27th, 2014, 05:13 PM   #11334
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Having an EU-wide signage system could be useful in theory, but practically it would be extremely expensive to implement. Million of signs would need to be replaced.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old September 27th, 2014, 05:15 PM   #11335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Having an EU-wide signage system could be useful in theory, but practically it would be extremely expensive to implement. Million of signs would need to be replaced.
You don't need to replace all at once. Establish some new signs (I'm not talking about changing all signs, just the ones for which currently there is no pattern) and replace old ones under normal maintenance programs.
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Old September 27th, 2014, 06:57 PM   #11336
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You don't need to replace all at once. Establish some new signs (I'm not talking about changing all signs, just the ones for which currently there is no pattern) and replace old ones under normal maintenance programs.
It means having a mess of both old and new signs for at least 2 decades.

Moreover, almost all current European signs (except Ireland) are mutually intelligible, even if they differ graphically from a country to another.
The only important thing to do is to get rid of still remaining text-based signs, that aren't intelligible to those who doesn't know the language. Italy did quite well with the new highway code in 1993, but there are still some issues left, like limited traffic areas signs.
Also the attempt to estabilish an European road numbering scheme was proven to be a failure, since nobody outside Belgium or Scandinavia uses it.
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“The transponder’s personalised signal would be picked up when the car passed through an intersection, and then relayed to a central computer which would calculate the charge according to the intersection and the time of day and add it to the car’s bill” - Nobel Economics Prize winner William Vickrey, proposing a system of electronic tolling for the Washington metropolitan area, 1959
In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

Last edited by italystf; September 27th, 2014 at 07:03 PM.
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Old September 28th, 2014, 06:42 PM   #11337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post

Specifically, I think there needs to be very clear standardized signs in Europe for signaling:

- the begging and end of "urban perimeter" for purpose of road regulations (speed, parking etc). Enough with different colors and shapes and positioning of such signs.
I completely agree about this, in the NL urban areas only have to be signed by a blue sign with the city name:
http://goo.gl/maps/L9i5R

Sometimes I find myself wondering if I'm still in a slow ass 50 km/h ''city'' zone or not, not always clear!
eg.:



The Polish signs is much more clearer:



In rural areas places are usually signed more clearly here, with combinations like :


But especially in/around big cities, it's hard to see if you're in a ''built up area'' or not. Especially since physically the area means nothing, there are roads that are not in the ''built up area'' in the middle of a neighborhood, and there are roads through fields that are a ''built up area''.

Quote:
- environmental restrictions to traffic based on pollution standards. All haphazard systems like the Unweltplakkete in Germany should be prohibited, and access control should be allowed only based on a given level of EURO standard with a new sign specifying that.
Tbh, the German zones aren't too bad, though I'm not sure they really work ( pollution wise I mean). Cops are usually forgiving to tourists too.

Quote:
- areas with access restricted, like the Italian ZTLs and the likes. There should be required gantries to signal that, and clearly visible horizontal markings, and a clear exit path that means a driver unfamiliar with the area won't find him/herself suddenly entering a restricted area with no escape from heavy fines
Completely agree.
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- ramp meters, automated bollards and other sorts of traffic flow rationing control. There should also be a ban on those bollards that kick your car from below and damage it if you are unauthorized, these should be replaced by camera fines

- parking-other-than-free. There should be standard signs indicating whether parking is paid and accessible to anyone, or reserved to those with a permit. Colors (yellow, blue, red, white) used to mark parking should be standardized with the same meaning throughout EU.
Completely agree. Bollards are inventions from evil people and used by evil municipalities.
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Old September 28th, 2014, 06:56 PM   #11338
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Finally, the point would be replacing just those sign which differ widely from one country to other one. Actually, most of warning and regulatory sign are understandable from everybody as just typography, graphic style or icon particular design change from one country to another one.

Specially the information signs are the ones which show more differences depending on the country: criteria for marking destinations, colors, different design of icons for the same concept... etc.

Actually, unifying icons would be relatively easy, but forcing everybody in Europe to use the same color code, for instance, for the different roads categories would be extremely complicated.
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Old September 28th, 2014, 08:20 PM   #11339
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I'm not concerned with directional signs or fonts, just with prescriptive signs (those that give an express command or prohibition, whose violation will make you subject to a fine and/or put the driver or other road users in danger, distress or discomfort).
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Old September 28th, 2014, 08:41 PM   #11340
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I'm not concerned with directional signs or fonts, just with prescriptive signs (those that give an express command or prohibition, whose violation will make you subject to a fine and/or put the driver or other road users in danger, distress or discomfort).
I am not completely sure how accurate is this Wikipedia table (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...ean_road_signs), but out of the Irish particularity, and the yellow used by some countries, the rest of the overall design is pretty much equivalent. That's true that among the shown signs, indication ones are the most variable specially in some cases just because of the used icon.
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