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Old October 21st, 2014, 08:17 PM   #11521
Slagathor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Through central Rotterdam? Otherwise a link is provided via A20...
Of course through central Rotterdam, remember who you're talking to. Ain't no building too tall to fit underneath a massive viaduct, baby! Delftse Poort here we come!

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Originally Posted by keokiracer View Post
I really hate it that people call that part the A4-South, the actual A4-South is at Steenbergen, not near Rotterdam
I think in their little world, everything South of Rotterdam is South, full stop.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 08:37 PM   #11522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
Of course through central Rotterdam, remember who you're talking to. Ain't no building too tall to fit underneath a massive viaduct, baby! Delftse Poort here we come!
It wouldn't be bad for Rotterdam to have an urban expressway, it would be quite easy if only they accepted some viaducts within the city, but I was referring to the project quoted above: the extension of A16 beyond Terbregseplein, direction RTM airpot.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 08:56 PM   #11523
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Oh my god.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 08:57 PM   #11524
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Oh my god.
Did they kill Kenny again?
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Old October 21st, 2014, 09:07 PM   #11525
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Originally Posted by verfmeer View Post
The A20 Gouwe-Terbregseplein is now the most congested motorway in the Netherlands. It isn't far away from the most congested road in the Netherlands, the N210 Algerabrug. The intensities of this bridge is 50% higher than its theoritical capacity, causing huge traffic jams.

To solve those problems, new roads are needed. One of the best options is extending the A38 to the A20. It would be a ring road around the suburbs of Capelle a/d IJssel and Krimpen a/d IJssel, and would give traffic between Gouda and Rotterdam-South/Dordrecht a shorter alternative.
Two questions:
1) In which percentage is traffic on A20:
- local (generated after Gouwe)
- distant (before Gouwe) pointing to Rotterdam
- distant and going South?

2) By adding up capacity in Rotterdam I think you would need a SERIOUS expansion of A12 Gouwe - Utrecht.
You would have an orgy with A12 West + A20 + A38 + Gouda city + N11 + Utrecht's western suburbs... a bit hardcore.
Gouwe itself is not even a full 2x5.

I usually favor expanding existing ways instead of opening new ones, but this may be a case in which a completely different alternative should be explored. The network of Rotterdam is clearly divided in North and South (so will be the destinations for traffic flowing to the area), what about providing separate feeders for these two axes?

Just a quick idea, the "A38 Lekbaan", with a couple of alternatives:


(yes, I hear the Greens claiming the free usage of my skin)
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Old October 21st, 2014, 09:09 PM   #11526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keokiracer View Post

Did they kill Kenny again?


Worse. Suburbanist wants motorways through Dutch city's and in this case Rotterdam is going to be the victim.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 09:19 PM   #11527
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A southern motorway from Rotterdam to Nieuwegein along present-day N210 was planned in the 1960s and 1970s, but never came close to construction. It was planned as 'rijksweg 24'. Rijksweg 24 was also planned as a northern arc of Rotterdam, but most of it has been scrapped, only the A15-A20 link will be constructed.

I don't know any figures for A20, but at the Van Brienenoord Bridge (A16), traffic flows are: 21% local, 44% regional, 35% through.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 09:46 PM   #11528
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And what about A12 East of Gouwe?

They cannot load more and more roads on that without a heavy widening... and there's a limit, anyway.


I was calculating that, using my hypotetical A38, Amsterdam - Ridderkerk would be a bit shorter problem solved for A12 and A20

(83 km vs. 92, not bad)
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Last edited by Wilhem275; October 21st, 2014 at 09:53 PM.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 09:57 PM   #11529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Two questions:
1) In which percentage is traffic on A20:
- local (generated after Gouwe)
- distant (before Gouwe) pointing to Rotterdam
- distant and going South?

2) By adding up capacity in Rotterdam I think you would need a SERIOUS expansion of A12 Gouwe - Utrecht.
You would have an orgy with A12 West + A20 + A38 + Gouda city + N11 + Utrecht's western suburbs... a bit hardcore.
Gouwe itself is not even a full 2x5.

I usually favor expanding existing ways instead of opening new ones, but this may be a case in which a completely different alternative should be explored. The network of Rotterdam is clearly divided in North and South (so will be the destinations for traffic flowing to the area), what about providing separate feeders for these two axes?

Just a quick idea, the "A38 Lekbaan", with a couple of alternatives:


(yes, I hear the Greens claiming the free usage of my skin)
The original route was plannen te end at the N210 or the N219, to relieve the Algerabrug. It is the only option to leave the Krimpenerwaard in 20 km when going north, and 40 km when going south. So they desperately need an extra river crossing to prevent that the 80.000 inhabitants are locked up when the bridge is closed.
When I looked at the map of the A38 plans, I saw that a connection with the A20 was possible, without many extra costs. Near petrol station De Vink there is enough land available, without NIMBY-neighbours. It would further connect the region, and might even draw distant traffic of the A20. But even if that didn't, it would still make the network more solid.

About your questions:
1) At Moordrecht, 82.000 vehicles use the A20, which rises to 140.000 at Terbregseplein. Which of them use the A16 I don't know. But more importantly I think are the intensities on the A16. They rise by 100.000 vehicles between the A20 and the N210.
The A16 is 4x3 there, and can cope with this traffic, but the exits can't. Going from Capelle a/d IJssel (N219) to the A16 it is often faster to go Capelseweg-A20-A16 instead of the N219, because of the traffic jams. It is that local traffic that would use the A38 if possible.

2) As said above, it will be mostly local traffic. If the traffic problems at Rotterdam are solved more people will travel to rotterdam but the A12 is 2x4, which is more than enough. At Gouwe, 150.000 vehicles use the A12, which drops to 117.000 at Reeuwijk, from where Utrecht traffic kicks in, and rise to 200.000 at Oudenrijn.

This road doesn't change much for distant trafic. Antwerpen-Amsterdam will still be faster via A2-A27, maybe that more Amsterdam-Rotterdam traffic will use the A20-A12-A2 route, but with the A4 upgrades I don't see that happening soon.

About that Lekbaan: The red line doesn't give you any extra river crossings, the whole goal of this project, the blue one gives one over the Nieuwe Maas, but fails at crossing the Hollandse IJssel. It would also be a waste of money, since the N210 east of the N474 only carries 14.000 vehicles a day.

Last edited by verfmeer; October 21st, 2014 at 10:08 PM.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 09:59 PM   #11530
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That's the problem with motorways in western Netherlands. The secondary roads are so bad that everything leads to the motorway. A12 carries 150,000 vehicles per day through rural areas.

The motorway network in the Netherlands is dense for a country, but weak for a metropolitan area. Most motorways were planned in the 1930s for intercity travel, not for so much regional traffic. Just compare the density of the motorway & expressway network of western Netherlands with that of the Ruhr, Paris or Madrid.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 10:10 PM   #11531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Two questions:
1) In which percentage is traffic on A20:
- local (generated after Gouwe)
- distant (before Gouwe) pointing to Rotterdam
- distant and going South?

2) By adding up capacity in Rotterdam I think you would need a SERIOUS expansion of A12 Gouwe - Utrecht.
You would have an orgy with A12 West + A20 + A38 + Gouda city + N11 + Utrecht's western suburbs... a bit hardcore.
Gouwe itself is not even a full 2x5.

I usually favor expanding existing ways instead of opening new ones, but this may be a case in which a completely different alternative should be explored. The network of Rotterdam is clearly divided in North and South (so will be the destinations for traffic flowing to the area), what about providing separate feeders for these two axes?

Just a quick idea, the "A38 Lekbaan", with a couple of alternatives:


(yes, I hear the Greens claiming the free usage of my skin)
You just put a motorway through Kinderdijk, a major tourist attraction.

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Old October 21st, 2014, 10:18 PM   #11532
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Shhh. Don't give him any ideas! Geez...
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Old October 21st, 2014, 10:20 PM   #11533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verfmeer View Post
It would also be a waste of money, since the N210 east of the N474 only carries 14.000 vehicles a day.
Well, that doesn't tell the whole story. It could certainly attract a lot of traffic from both A12 and A15.

Before A50 was built from Oss to Eindhoven, the provincial roads in that area also carried in the 15,000 vehicles per day range. But that rose to 50,000 - 70,000 vehicles per day within 5 years of completion. Another example is A30, where traffic increased to 61,000 vehicles per day within 7 years of completion. This was mostly a shift from alternate motorways.

A new east-west motorway is not planned and will likely never be constructed in that area though. They could widen A12 to 2x5 lanes all the way from Gouda to Utrecht. A widening of A15 to at least 2x3 lanes from Papendrecht to Gorinchem is also an urgent need (but not planned )
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Old October 21st, 2014, 10:35 PM   #11534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
You just put a motorway through Kinderdijk, a major tourist attraction.
Been there, done that And it was a pain to reach, trough the goddamn Algerabrug!

Well, let's say I'd go with the blue option, mostly along N210... so Kinderdijk would not be destroyed but just a bit more reachable

Anyway, the plan is made, so please tell RWS I'm sending the bill. And remember them they still have to pay for Prins Clausplein...
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Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 01:03 AM   #11535
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I tend do see all those farms between Gouda and Utrecht as kinda a wasted potential. Wouldn't it be cool if Utrecht and Gouda became a single conurbation? .
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 01:10 AM   #11536
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I'll put the popcorn on....
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 01:14 AM   #11537
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Quote:
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I tend do see all those farms between Gouda and Utrecht as kinda a wasted potential. Wouldn't it be cool if Utrecht and Gouda became a single conurbation? .
I like how you always aim for the best. Not Woerden and Utrecht, straight to Gouda and Utrecht

I' ve been here for two months and I already heard at least five times that all the soil around Gouda is so consistent it's called "thick water"... the city is basically floating in the middle of the Randstad pond
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

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Old October 22nd, 2014, 01:15 AM   #11538
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I'll put the popcorn on....
And I'm gonna give Subi an umbrella for the incoming
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 01:21 AM   #11539
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Hmmm I thought we should link London and Rotterdam... it's only water.....
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 03:04 AM   #11540
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I like how you always aim for the best. Not Woerden and Utrecht, straight to Gouda and Utrecht

I' ve been here for two months and I already heard at least five times that all the soil around Gouda is so consistent it's called "thick water"... the city is basically floating in the middle of the Randstad pond
At first, I just assumed he was joking.
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