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Old October 22nd, 2014, 03:18 AM   #11541
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Trust me, he's not joking. A joke normally lasts for a few minutes only, he's been at it for years now. He has come to Europe with a vision: one big suburban area with lots of stacked motorways.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 03:29 AM   #11542
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After years of reading, I seriously can't say if he's trolling or he's serious, and I like the mistery about it.

Either way, I sincerely admire him for his constance and for the consistency of his arguments. Never seen a half assed job from him. Also never been rude.

I think it's important, in a discussion, to have a moderate but constant flow of wrong or absurd ideas. Starting from Subi's deranged visions a lot of interesting explanations were expressed over the years.
"Obvious things need to be repeated, in order to remain obvious"

And if he's a troll... well, the best troll ever seen in the Internet. The border between insanity and genius is always thin...
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 03:30 AM   #11543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Trust me, he's not joking. A joke normally lasts for a few minutes only, he's been at it for years now. He has come to Europe with a vision: one big suburban area with lots of stacked motorways.
NL is ideally suited to suburban development though, it is the only country with essentially limitless landmass
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 03:33 AM   #11544
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I don't think he's a troll. He's intelligent and knows are thing or two about roads and railroads. It's just that he has a very bad taste in society, in where he believes in concrete and futuristic progress without room for nature and beauty.

By the way, do you think he can hear us?
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 03:44 AM   #11545
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I hope
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 03:51 AM   #11546
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Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Trust me, he's not joking. A joke normally lasts for a few minutes only, he's been at it for years now. He has come to Europe with a vision: one big suburban area with lots of stacked motorways.
Could have been self-parody. :-)
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 04:00 AM   #11547
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Or self-trolling

Btw, it's late night here, we are justified for this incontrollable flow of inane chatter. What's your reason?
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 04:06 AM   #11548
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I can chatter inanely on demand, at any time of day.

And also, my sinuses are killing me.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 08:59 AM   #11549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da_scotty View Post
Hmmm I thought we should link London and Rotterdam... it's only water.....
That can be done! If we keep expanding the Maasvlakte at the current rate we should reach England in 2621 and we can charge mega money for use of the Suez like shipping canal
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 01:59 PM   #11550
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Two possible alternatives for my beloved Lekbaan concept:



A bit inspired by the rail network... the Woerden - Breukelen line was actually used by direct services Amsterdam - Rotterdam.

The main difference between these two is what part of the Utrecht node will see more or less traffic.

With the Breukelen link (red) A2 and Oudenrijn see less traffic, but A12 keeps being loaded with traffic from Eastern regions, till Woerden (which is also the limit of the suburban area). This is also definitely the fastest link from Amsterdam to Rotterdam, whatever the destination is (A20 or A15), with advantages for A4, Schiphol and Haaglandia.
Here the road can be built parallel to the railway, till knooppunt Harmelen.

Otherwise (blue) A12 keeps lighter traffic, especially between Lunetten and Oudenrijn; but A2 keeps getting loaded all the way through Utrecht suburban area by traffic from the North.

So, it all depends on the foreseen conditions of A2 and A12 in the Utrecht area, which I don't know in detail.
By instinct I'd go with the red one, because (Lekbaan or not) traffic from East will use A12 through Utrecht anyway.

Or we can build both


Let aside fantasies, I'm convinced the way to have a functional Rotterdam node is to provide a completely independent access to Southern Rotterdam (= a tiny port) that doesn't require to cross the city using the existing paths (that's why I'm specifically avoiding any link to A20).
As said by Chris, all this amount of parallel motorways may be seen as a total overkill, but this fake countryside is in fact part of a highly populated suburban area and the network density is even low today.

In another setting, I would consider pure idiocy building an A4 at Delft while there is a parallel A13 a few steps away. But in this scenario there is a good reason to have it this way.

What I have in mind with this concept is not giving a specific new main route that everyone has to follow, but rather distributing fluxes over the network, to avoid the complete collapse with gridlocks all over the area every time one thing goes wrong in one corner...
With this amount of traffic, concentrating everything on A20 and A12 is dangerous... with no alternative routes, if ever there's a problem there the whole network is majestically screwed.
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

Last edited by Wilhem275; October 22nd, 2014 at 02:23 PM.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 02:30 PM   #11551
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NL is ideally suited to suburban development though, it is the only country with essentially limitless landmass
Unless you put so much crap on it that it sinks.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 03:08 PM   #11552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
What I have in mind with this concept is not giving a specific new main route that everyone has to follow, but rather distributing fluxes over the network, to avoid the complete collapse with gridlocks all over the area every time one thing goes wrong in one corner...
With this amount of traffic, concentrating everything on A20 and A12 is dangerous... with no alternative routes, if ever there's a problem there the whole network is majestically screwed.
A 'robust road network'. Everytime this concept is destroyed by policymakers who think we should utilize existing infrastructure to the absolute maximum, thereby creating a situation that even a small incident can gridlock a whole region. Belgium often has this problem on R0 and R1, and the Netherlands used to be very problematic before 2008 as well.

A 'robust network' can be seen with two options; alternate routes and spare capacity. Although the Dutch motorway network is dense for a national network, the amount of alternate routes for the heavy regional commuting traffic is limited.

The Dutch network has somewhat of an identity problem, it's denser than most national networks, but it lacks the local feeder routes of a metropolitan motorway & expressway system. The fact that provincial roads are all low-capacity doesn't really help either. Nowhere are the provincial roads so inadequate as in western Netherlands.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 05:09 PM   #11553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Two possible alternatives for my beloved Lekbaan concept:

[IMG]

A bit inspired by the rail network... the Woerden - Breukelen line was actually used by direct services Amsterdam - Rotterdam.

The main difference between these two is what part of the Utrecht node will see more or less traffic.

With the Breukelen link (red) A2 and Oudenrijn see less traffic, but A12 keeps being loaded with traffic from Eastern regions, till Woerden (which is also the limit of the suburban area). This is also definitely the fastest link from Amsterdam to Rotterdam, whatever the destination is (A20 or A15), with advantages for A4, Schiphol and Haaglandia.
Here the road can be built parallel to the railway, till knooppunt Harmelen.

Otherwise (blue) A12 keeps lighter traffic, especially between Lunetten and Oudenrijn; but A2 keeps getting loaded all the way through Utrecht suburban area by traffic from the North.

So, it all depends on the foreseen conditions of A2 and A12 in the Utrecht area, which I don't know in detail.
By instinct I'd go with the red one, because (Lekbaan or not) traffic from East will use A12 through Utrecht anyway.

Or we can build both


Let aside fantasies, I'm convinced the way to have a functional Rotterdam node is to provide a completely independent access to Southern Rotterdam (= a tiny port) that doesn't require to cross the city using the existing paths (that's why I'm specifically avoiding any link to A20).
As said by Chris, all this amount of parallel motorways may be seen as a total overkill, but this fake countryside is in fact part of a highly populated suburban area and the network density is even low today.

In another setting, I would consider pure idiocy building an A4 at Delft while there is a parallel A13 a few steps away. But in this scenario there is a good reason to have it this way.

What I have in mind with this concept is not giving a specific new main route that everyone has to follow, but rather distributing fluxes over the network, to avoid the complete collapse with gridlocks all over the area every time one thing goes wrong in one corner...
With this amount of traffic, concentrating everything on A20 and A12 is dangerous... with no alternative routes, if ever there's a problem there the whole network is majestically screwed.
"fake countryside" - maybe to an Italian, but we don't have any Alps or Amalfi Coast. We could pave over the whole country on that premise!

I think the best you might conceivably hope for is an upgrade of the N210 to a 2x2 provincial road with 100km/h as maximum speed. If you could couple that with an upgrade of the N207-N216 link between Gouda and Gorinchem, you'd have a pretty decent back-up link.

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Old October 22nd, 2014, 06:26 PM   #11554
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I completely agree with suburbanist.
They should make the Maasboulevard, at least to the S100/Oostplein, an urban expressway, only 2 viaducts required. 1 near Woudenstein, and one near Willem Ruyslaan.
And the ''green wave'' of Traffic lights should be used/enabled more often beyond that.

I'm all for a 2x2 lane grade separated N210 along with a link to Ridderkerk.

I Live in Capelle ad IJssel, I have all the worst congestion of the country all around me .
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He has come to Europe with a vision: one big suburban area with lots of stacked motorways.
And what a nice vision it is . Much better than the boring stuff we have in Holland now .
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 06:46 PM   #11555
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Some people are putting words in my mouth.

Rotterdam is my favorite city in Netherlands.

Take a look at this route. It comprises mostly a wide boulevard which already has local lanes. They could build trenches (thus no "viaduct eyesore") on the crossings and therefore get grade separation for the entire route, save for a new tunnel that would be needed near Zuidplein. Of course this would use the Maastunnel to cross the river.

That way, traffic could be whiskered out of Rotterdam more easily into the highways.

The Maasboulevard could also be grade-separated with ease, using a combination of viaduct and trenches, none of the viaducts being long elevated structures close to buildings.

I also think they missed an opportunity to build a double-deck rail/road tunnel when they put the rail tracks between R'dam Centraal and R'dam Zuid underground. With a very easy connection (through industrial parks and the vicinity of the Kuip stadium), it could be connected to A16 and there would be an expressway linking the very central are of the city to points East and South.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 06:58 PM   #11556
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"fake countryside" - maybe to an Italian, but we don't have any Alps or Amalfi Coast. We could pave over the whole country on that premise!
I was really looking to be kicked, with that

Nah, it's a nice countryside and it should be respected (you don't want to end up like Belgium, here ).
But the uncommon setup with very large cities separated by a thin strip of nothing makes it not easy to leave the land completely untouched. In general all the land surrounding any city is at risk, sooner or later, of being used for infrastructures. Since here cities are very close to each other, the "risky area" ends up to be the whole land between built-up areas.

So I would not see a scandal in building a new motorway in the fields (integrating it with some decency), as long as this doesn't bring uncontrolled urban sprawl in green areas. The problem is not the road itself, it's the bunch of ugly buildings that may surround it...
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 07:03 PM   #11557
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Almost all of the "countryside" of Randstad and surrounding fringes is very heavily managed, even the supposedly natural areas like the Biesboch or the Vinkeveense Plassen. They only exist as such because there is intensive, round-the-clock water control, and frequent landscaping to keep them pretty, else they'd turn into bogged muddy fields with overgrown grass.

In any case, there is still the option of completing the drainage and polderization of the Markermeer to expand the buildable area of Randstad, as originally planned.

Road building and sprawl are very separate entities in Netherlands, due to the harsh and very strict planning laws that all but outlaw makeshift scattered development of new areas, no matter how convenient transportation is, without a formal planning process lead by cities and provinces. This should be really a non-issue. The only possible "sprawl" possible would be for very rich people to buy out small active farms, then stop farming and use the house existing there, if anything. But many farms don't even have a in-situ residential property, which means it is all but impossible to build a new residence there, and if that was not enough, farmland is very expensive so it would cost really a lot of money to "retire" a farm. Self-subdivision Belgian-style is just illegal in Netherlands.
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Old October 22nd, 2014, 07:39 PM   #11558
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Thank God...
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 03:22 AM   #11559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Almost all of the "countryside" of Randstad and surrounding fringes is very heavily managed, even the supposedly natural areas like the Biesboch or the Vinkeveense Plassen. They only exist as such because there is intensive, round-the-clock water control, and frequent landscaping to keep them pretty, else they'd turn into bogged muddy fields with overgrown grass.

In any case, there is still the option of completing the drainage and polderization of the Markermeer to expand the buildable area of Randstad, as originally planned.

Road building and sprawl are very separate entities in Netherlands, due to the harsh and very strict planning laws that all but outlaw makeshift scattered development of new areas, no matter how convenient transportation is, without a formal planning process lead by cities and provinces. This should be really a non-issue. The only possible "sprawl" possible would be for very rich people to buy out small active farms, then stop farming and use the house existing there, if anything. But many farms don't even have a in-situ residential property, which means it is all but impossible to build a new residence there, and if that was not enough, farmland is very expensive so it would cost really a lot of money to "retire" a farm. Self-subdivision Belgian-style is just illegal in Netherlands.
You have no idea about Dutch countryside and what it means to the locals, because you are blinded with thoughts of building this huge city-state! With what right do you come to the Netherlands, and dictate how you think it should be when nobody around you wants it that way, apart from your new pal Snowdog perhaps...
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 03:57 PM   #11560
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statistics

Some statistics.

Driving by motive (billion traveler kms, driver only)


WORK
EDUCATION
SHOPPING
SOCIAL-RECREATIVE



The modal split by distance & trips


CAR DRIVER
CAR PASSENGER
BICYCLE
TRAIN
BUS/TRAM/SUBWAY
MOPED
WALKING
OTHER
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