daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 23rd, 2014, 05:04 PM   #11561
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Funny how the train share is rising while local PT is losing points. Usually they are strictly linked. I suspect some of that share went into the rising of cycling.

The alternative methods are not marginal, what are they taking into account more than walking?

About cars, it's interesting that the overall share is almost the same, but being a passenger gave a lot of way to being a driver.
But I don't know if these can be strictly linked (like: many passengers are now driving their own car).
Whatever the reason, this means that the average occupancy of cars is getting lower and lower...
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 23rd, 2014, 05:08 PM   #11562
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21252

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Funny how the train share is rising while local PT is losing points. Usually they are strictly linked. I suspect some of that share went into the rising of cycling.
Whereas the train system is quite good, local urban transportation is more lousy, especially outside the 3 cities with major systems (Den Haag, Rotterdam, Amsterdam). All other cities rely just on buses (or electric buses), except for one tramway in Utrecht. While there is ample coverage, buses are often not that convenient at all, except if you are heading to the point where they converge.

Quote:
About cars, it's interesting that the overall share is almost the same, but being a passenger gave a lot of way to being a driver.
But I don't know if these can be strictly linked (like: many passengers are now driving their own car).
Whatever the reason, this means that the average occupancy of cars is getting lower and lower...
An hypothesis is that, as working hours and schedules became more flexible over time, it became more difficult to coordinate car-pooling, either with co-workers (different origins) or with other adult in the household (different destinations).
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2014, 05:12 PM   #11563
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Whereas the train system is quite good, local urban transportation is more lousy, especially outside the 3 cities with major systems (Den Haag, Rotterdam, Amsterdam). All other cities rely just on buses (or electric buses), except for one tramway in Utrecht. While there is ample coverage, buses are often not that convenient at all, except if you are heading to the point where they converge.
This can explain losing points compared with other modes. But they are getting lower on absolute numbers.
I'm pretty confident PT today is not lousier than in 1995!
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2014, 05:15 PM   #11564
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21252

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
This can explain losing points compared with other modes. But they are getting lower on absolute numbers.
I'm pretty confident PT today is not lousier than in 1995!
In these 20 years I bet hundreds of thousands of jobs mover out of central locations or big factories to office and industrial parks, where bus service is often spotty (there is always a bus, but it comes every 30 min/60 min, and it has a circuitous route covering many places nearby).

Except for the Fyra financial fallout, NS makes a tidy profit on passenger operations, more than € 1.5/billion year. Metro systems do okay for European standards, especially after OV-Chipkaart. Buses on provinces outside Randstad cost a lot.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

Last edited by Suburbanist; October 23rd, 2014 at 05:27 PM.
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2014, 05:16 PM   #11565
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,466
Likes (Received): 6165

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
This can explain losing points compared with other modes. But they are getting lower on absolute numbers.
I'm pretty confident PT today is not lousier than in 1995!

EDIT: while the loss was constant for many years, it appears that there was a drop around the 2011 crisis -for all modes- but after that PT never raised again. Maybe there were some important budget cuts.
Actually, I would say it almost certainly is.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2014, 05:17 PM   #11566
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

This is sad and interesting

Well, I was also considering that while the loss was constant but limited for many years, it appears that there was a drop around the 2011 crisis -for all modes- and after that PT never raised again. Maybe there were some important budget cuts.
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2014, 10:07 PM   #11567
aswnl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: near Amsterdam (NL)
Posts: 932
Likes (Received): 84

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
You have no idea about Dutch countryside and what it means to the locals, because you are blinded with thoughts of building this huge city-state! With what right do you come to the Netherlands, and dictate how you think it should be when nobody around you wants it that way, apart from your new pal Snowdog perhaps...
87% of the Netherlands is unbuilt. Even if you would double the amount of land being built with houses and roads, more than 3/4 of the land would still be unbuilt. I am Dutch and I would rather live in a more sprawled built country than in a country packing all her citizens right upon eachother - and I'd rather not move out of this country. So what right do you have to think that nearly all the Dutch want that idiot amount off land being wasted on grass ?? Enough people want to live suburban, but they simply can't pay for it because the system of spatial planning made housing very expensive.
__________________

Suburbanist liked this post
aswnl no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2014, 10:11 PM   #11568
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Absolute bollocks. A country needs agricultural areas as well, and if you can't afford to live in a suburb then you need to get a job. And how do you do your calculating? 87% unbuilt, but if you double that 3/4 would still be unbuilt???
__________________

bozenBDJ liked this post

Last edited by Road_UK; October 23rd, 2014 at 10:17 PM.
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2014, 10:20 PM   #11569
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

I lived for 18 years in a randomly sprawled area, and to me the Dutch land management is a blessing...

The costs to manage a sprawled area are afwul; the costs to manage a sprawled Netherlands, with their extremely delicate terrain-water relationship, would probably be unbearable.
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

Road_UK liked this post
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2014, 10:24 PM   #11570
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,624
Likes (Received): 19415

It's a fact that housing is highly unaffordable to due the low supply of land and mortgage rent deduction (which drives up prices as well). You need 2.5 times the minimum wage to afford the smallest single family houses possible (around € 200.000). Even at the median income, you cannot afford to buy a regular house. Housing prices exploded since the late 1990s and only partially corrected in recent years.
__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

Surel, EPA001 liked this post
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2014, 10:35 PM   #11571
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

My family seems to be managing. My sister recently bought a appartment in Haarlem, my aunt is renting in Lisse, in commuting distance of The Hague, Leiden, Haarlem and Amsterdam, and my brother is about to buy a house in Arnhem. And they all got normal jobs. I said **** you and went ahead and moved to England and now Austria

Still, there's no reason for the Netherlands to give up its countryside.
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2014, 10:42 PM   #11572
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

I think the key is in the low supply of land. With this kind of land, it's simply not possible to have a real independence and decide to build whatever I want because I don't want to stay close to others.

We can discuss if the government should allow more areas to be urbanized, but this will still have to be made with a general area plan.
The dream of buying the corner of land of my preference and build my peaceful single house is really something not conceivable here (and believe me, where this was permitted the whole place turned to crap in one generation*).

A plan to expand urban areas MAY lower general prices thanks to the higher offer of space, but on the other side of the scale we must also consider the surely higher costs per capita that a less densely populated area has to deal with, and the sure loss of revenue from the fields.
It seems a risky deal to me... sure loss and potential gain. But a detailed analysis could demonstrate an equilibrium.


*and I can add that it is a fake independence, anyway: services will be scarce, society will be more ignorant (less contacts, poorer mix), and my corner will be peaceful until some other independent spirits decide to build a bit farer than me and then use my personal paradise as their commuting path to the city... true story.
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

Last edited by Wilhem275; October 23rd, 2014 at 10:49 PM.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2014, 10:51 PM   #11573
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,624
Likes (Received): 19415

In general you can get about 4.5 - 5 times your gross annual income in mortgage. For about € 250.000 you can buy an entry-level single family rowhouse with a small backyard in a typical larger city. You need a household income of at least € 50.000 per year to buy such a house.

Many home-owners are the 'incumbents', who bought their houses when they were affordable (pre-VINEX era) and can now cash in. For them, even with the housing price correction, their mortgages are by far not 'under water'.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2014, 12:57 AM   #11574
woutero
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 294
Likes (Received): 41

The average household income in The Netherlands is €57,900 according to CBS.
woutero no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2014, 12:58 AM   #11575
Kanadzie
Registered User
 
Kanadzie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,377
Likes (Received): 748

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
Absolute bollocks. A country needs agricultural areas as well, and if you can't afford to live in a suburb then you need to get a job. And how do you do your calculating? 87% unbuilt, but if you double that 3/4 would still be unbuilt???
is math - 13% developed x2 = 26% = approx 1/4
Kanadzie no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2014, 03:21 AM   #11576
sponge_bob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,955
Likes (Received): 2207

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
In these 20 years I bet hundreds of thousands of jobs mover out of central locations or big factories to office and industrial parks, where bus service is often spotty .
This is exactly what happened and in ALL the Western 'Industrial' world.

Once upon a time a big company called Phillips dominated Eindhoven. As it grew the tram network was designed to move people to Phillips, half of Eindhoven could walk or cycle there anyway, traffic jams were concentrated near Phillips factories no doubt.

Every corner of Ireland had something made in Eindhoven....usually a Phillips radio. Tellys and White goods too.

Then Phillips shrank inexorably over the years and employs a lot less of Eindhoven than it used to. No consumer goods seem to come from Eindhoven any more.

So the Eindhovenites Eindhovenators ...people took to their cars to where the work is, not always in Eindhoven.

The problem is they could be working anywhere in Holland and an anywhere to anywhere high capacity road/rail network is impossible to plan as jobs come and go and industry 'clusters' do too.

And other countries are much less compact than Holland and have even bigger problems with predicting transport capacity.
sponge_bob no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2014, 09:19 AM   #11577
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,624
Likes (Received): 19415

Quote:
Originally Posted by woutero View Post
The average household income in The Netherlands is €57,900 according to CBS.
Yep, which means nearly half of the households cannot afford an entry-level single-family house if they are buyers with no money on the bank or assets. The whole housing market is geared to double-income households.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2014, 09:47 AM   #11578
woutero
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 294
Likes (Received): 41

A market is not geared towards anyone, but a result of supply-demand factors.

Let's not forget that over 30% of Dutch households live in a social rent situation, which makes the buyers market skewed to the more affluent part of the population.
woutero no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2014, 12:41 PM   #11579
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,624
Likes (Received): 19415

Yes, it's a bit of a shame that the housing market is out of reach for many single income middle class households.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2014, 09:05 PM   #11580
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,624
Likes (Received): 19415

N31, Leeuwarden

The aquaduct of N31 under the Van Harinxma Canal west of Leeuwarden (near the village of Ritsumasyl) has been pumped dry after an earlier leak that flooded the entire aquaduct underpass. It appears to have suffered no structural damage, and they plan to finish the aquaduct as planned in December 2014. They will be working 24/7 to finish it.

The planned opening of N31 around Leeuwarden is 18 December 2014.

__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

EPA001, Slagathor, SRC_100 liked this post
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
congestion, dutch, friesland, highways, motorways, netherlands

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium