daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 14th, 2016, 11:43 AM   #13501
g.spinoza
Lord Kelvin
 
g.spinoza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Torino
Posts: 9,515
Likes (Received): 2120

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB1981 View Post
...Trains
Try to go by train where there are no tracks
g.spinoza no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 14th, 2016, 11:47 AM   #13502
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,466
Likes (Received): 6165

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
LOL, it was pretty random. We have to choose from a list of articles to base our thesis on, and I opened "Urban traffic externalities" because the title got my attention.
Then I read "Leidschendam", "Voorburg", "Utrechtsebaan"... Mmhhh, this sounds familiar

The article itself pointed out how the opening of the N14 bypass (between A4 and N44) generated a sensible raise in housing value of the residential roads relieved by traffic.
From this I have several ideas to expand the research, for example with a projection of how a similar effect might be seen on the Rijswijkseweg once Rotterdamsebaan + Neherkade will be fully operational; and also other projects can be taken into it.
Other points I may add is how the added housing value shifts (a bit of) the cost/benefit ratio of the road project, and how a bypass is one of the few radical ways to reduce the negative externalities of traffic (which are almost never paid for by drivers themselves).

Needless to say, you people will hear many questions from me in the next weeks... especially about sources for traffic volumes and housing prices
Well, best of luck. I'm sure it'll be... something.
__________________

Wilhem275 liked this post
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 14th, 2016, 04:16 PM   #13503
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,624
Likes (Received): 19415

N62 Westerschelde Tunnel

Inhabitants of Zeeland province started a campaign to de-toll the Westerschelde Tunnel / Western Scheldt Tunnel (N62). At 6.6 kilometers, it is by far the longest road tunnel in the Netherlands. The toll is € 5 cash and € 3.80 with a toll tag. Frequent users pay € 3.05. The tunnel is tolled in both directions.

The tunnel opened to traffic in 2003 and is operated by Westerscheldetunnel N.V. which is 100% owned by Zeeland province. Out of the € 750 million investment, € 280 million has currently been repaid by tolls. The original plan was to keep the tolls until 2033.

I filmed the tunnel last year:
__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

EPA001, 8166UY liked this post
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 14th, 2016, 04:23 PM   #13504
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21252

Who they want to pick the tab in lieu of tolls? The province? RWS? What are the arguments beyond "we want to drive for free"
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 14th, 2016, 10:20 PM   #13505
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

That's comprehensible, in countries where only some roads are tolled. There are now proposals to toll the Gotthard tunnel*, but Ticino doesn't want it. I wonder if there are similar protests around Austrian Sondermaut sections (I think not, because locals have very strong discounts).

*in addition to the vignette, which may increase in future
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 14th, 2016, 10:29 PM   #13506
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,624
Likes (Received): 19415

With a possible toll in Belgium on passenger cars, Zeeuws-Vlaanderen / Zeelandic Flanders feels wedged between toll roads.

Zeelandic Flanders is the southernmost part of Zeeland province. Their only road link to the rest of the Netherlands is this toll tunnel. The other logical link via Antwerp is also tolled (Liefkenshoek Tunnel). So they either need to detour via the Kennedy Tunnel or accept paying tolls.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2016, 11:26 AM   #13507
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,466
Likes (Received): 6165

I'm for a toll cut for people who live in Zeeuws-Vlaanderen. If you're registered as a resident of that area, you shouldn't have to pay tolls.

But all the through-traffic between Rotterdam and Antwerp should keep paying; the province really needs the revenue now that its other assets are in deep trouble (especially the energy company Delta).
__________________

UnequalSine, Turf liked this post
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2016, 03:50 PM   #13508
keokiracer
Roadgeek from NL
 
keokiracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Halsteren (NL)
Posts: 3,675
Likes (Received): 2629

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
I'm for a toll cut for people who live in Zeeuws-Vlaanderen. If you're registered as a resident of that area, you shouldn't have to pay tolls.
Fully disagreed. Housing prices in Zeeuws-Vlaanderen are very low, (partially due to the extra costs, that being ferry costs or tunnel tolls), lower than in the rest of Zeeland, so people that wanted to live there knew what they were getting into and got lower housingprices as a return for that. If you 'forens' everyday from Terneuzen towards Vlissingen then you should've either gotten a slightly more expensive house somewhere else in Zeeland or pay the tolls in exchange for a lower housing price.

This seem to be the same type of people that go and live very closely to a highway (as the houses are cheaper) and then start continuously whining about the highway they decided to live next to...
keokiracer está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2016, 04:08 PM   #13509
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,466
Likes (Received): 6165

Not a comparable situation.

First of all, it's a community in its own right. You present it as if it were a choice that people live there, but I don't think you can fault people for wanting to stay in the place where they were born and where all their family lives.

Secondly, the locals were perfectly content with the ferry connections that used to exist between Vlissingen and Breskens, and between Kruiningen and Perkpolder. Much like the people from the Waddeneilanden, nobody ever complained that they had to pay for the ferry charge, which was reasonable and offered better subscriptions.

The tunnel is expensive and the ferries are gone.

Meanwhile, centralization has caused all kinds of facilities to disappear. The hospital is gone, they only have a clinic down there now. Similarly the Zeeland College (Hogeschool Zeeland) only has a pretty pathetic little seat in Terneuzen these days. Even many shops have closed in recent years and are now only available North of the Westerschelde. If you wanna do a little DIY on a Saturday and you need something from Praxis; sorry, you gotta go through the tunnel.

Nor are the houses actually a great deal cheaper (see this map). If you compare a pretty standard rowhouse in the centrally located towns of Arnemuiden (outside Middelburg) and Hoek (outside Terneuzen), the price is almost identical.

No comparable situation exists anywhere else in the country.
__________________

UnequalSine liked this post

Last edited by Slagathor; April 15th, 2016 at 04:18 PM.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2016, 04:17 PM   #13510
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,624
Likes (Received): 19415

You could argue that motorists pay enough taxes to make tolls an unnecessary financing method. Unfortunately these taxes are funneled to the general budget, they are not a special purpose tax. So people are dependent on the government to spend it (un)wisely.

Though there are more options to citizens in Zeelandic Flanders than to go north. Belgium has a lot of facilities available within reasonable driving range. Even Albert Heijn is in Belgium.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2016, 04:33 PM   #13511
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,466
Likes (Received): 6165

True but don't underestimate the difficulty and the paperwork when you want to go to a hospital in Belgium or study at the university in Ghent as a Dutch citizen. The EU is all well and good for corporations, but regular people still face plenty of road blocks.
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2016, 05:24 PM   #13512
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,624
Likes (Received): 19415

A22 Velser Tunnel

The large-scale renovation of the oldest motorway tunnel in the Netherlands starts tonight. The Velser Tunnel opened in 1957, it is a twin-tube tunnel under the North Sea Canal. A22 runs through it.

There are two motorway tunnels within close proximity, the Velser Tunnel (A22) and the Wijker Tunnel (A9). The Velsen Tunnel carries 66,000 vehicles per day and is most important for commuter traffic into the IJmond Region and the city of Haarlem. The Wijker Tunnel carries 58,000 vehicles per day and opened in 1996. It carries mainly longer distance traffic.

The Velser Tunnel will be closed to all traffic for 9 months. Capacity in the Wijker Tunnel has been increased to six lanes by converting the shoulder into a driving lane. They also added temporary ramps at the Velsen and Beverwijk motorway interchanges to allow traffic to turn.

The tunnel will be completely stripped. The entire pavement will be removed, and a portion of the concrete bottom will also be removed to increase the clearance by 12 centimeters. They will also change the ventilation system, from transversal to longitudinal ventilation. They will also create new escape routes between both tubes.

The tunnel will reopen in early 2017. It won't need another major overhaul until 2045.
__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

Suburbanist, keokiracer, Henk liked this post
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 15th, 2016, 05:25 PM   #13513
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21252

Do toll and ferry facilities owe VAT on the fares? I think government should collect VAT on these sort of access fees (same way universities don't collect VAT on tuition).
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 16th, 2016, 11:46 AM   #13514
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,624
Likes (Received): 19415

Maastricht

A major project in the city of Maastricht besides the A2 tunnel is the reconstruction of the road infrastructure in the northwestern quadrant of the city. The Northern Bridge (Dutch: Noorderbrug), built in 1984, will remain at the current location, but the approach on the west side will be moved north. The bridge corridor will also be widened to six lanes. They will also build a new road towards Lanaken (Belgium).

The goal is to relieve two streets which form a part of the city ring road (Statensingel & Hertogsingel). The project cost is € 168 million, the works last from 2015 to 2017.



__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

Batavier, 8166UY, EPA001 liked this post
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 16th, 2016, 08:15 PM   #13515
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,624
Likes (Received): 19415

A9, Amsterdam

An aerial photo of the construction on the A9 (Gaasperdammerweg). The four-lane motorway with shoulder running is being put underground in a 10 lane tunnel with reversible lanes. It is the most complex part of the 'Schiphol-Amsterdam-Almere' € 5 billion mega project.

Traffic will use the reversible lane, here seen under construction on the left, from 2 May. This project is going at a frantic pace, they did not start large-scale construction until September 2015.


Last edited by ChrisZwolle; April 16th, 2016 at 08:23 PM.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2016, 02:40 AM   #13516
Ni3lS
Moderator
 
Ni3lS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 16,482
Likes (Received): 3452

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
That was a proposal from the Labour Party. It was met with great skepticism. They are decimated in the polls for a long time now, polls consistently indicate the Labour Party will face a loss of two-thirds of its seats and is heading for the worst result of all time. Elections are not until March 2017 though. Labour tends to try to lure voters from GreenLeft, both parties have a significant interchangeable voter base.
It's an interesting topic that could potentially have great consequences for our country's infrastructure and economy. I value the government's interest in trying to reduce CO2 emissions although I feel like motions like this one aren't helping at all. The EU has been a pain to the automotive industry for years now with ever changing CO2 regulations while in my opinion they should focus on the real pollution; Farming and coal fueled power plants.

I think effectively car emissions contribute a small fraction to the total CO2 emissions in the Netherlands and Europe. I think time and money are better spent going after the real pollution rather than coming up with all kinds of regulations, rules and subsidies that don't work. A nice example are the subsidies for plug-in hybrids that have been going on for years that have now proven to be an absolute joke. They're great value for businesses that lease cars, sure, but it absolutely defeats the purpose. People that lease such cars just do it out of fiscal motives, not so much to help nature. What happens next is that most Plug-in hybrid drivers don't charge their cars which means they run on the combustion engine only, which needs to take more fuel because of the missing electrical boost resulting in an average more CO2 emissions.

Sure the government have caught up by now that human beings aren't as rational as they think they would be and misusing the cars because they simply don't care, resulting in an even worse environmental impact than ever before. Now the subsidies will disappear from next year onwards, after having created a market for these plug-in hybrids and letting spend car manufacturers billions into the development and production of these cars to find out that they will be useless in a matter of years, especially once the fully electrical cars and hydrogen / green gas cars will start to pick up pace.

I'm afraid that his ambitious motion for 2025 is a similar and stupid goal of equal magnitude. I speak from experience when saying that fully electrical cars (Tesla) aren't as green as they are believed to be. Electricity needs to come from somewhere and Tesla are quite the performance oriented car maker. The extra performance leads to more use of electricity and more frequent charging. I don't know if any of you have ever handled a Tesla supercharger, the cable is almost twice as thick as my underarm. I have experienced a peak of 312 Amps at a time fully charging a Tesla in a few minutes time and only taking an hour or two to completely drain the battery. With a full Tesla battery you can power your entire house for an estimated two weeks to put things into perspective.

I'm not even talking about the electricity and emissions it takes to produce the car's lithium ion batteries or all other components. Also, I once charged at one of these Fastned stations and had to pay €21 for a quarter battery (110 kilometers range), that is almost twice the price of gasoline (a joke), just to put the value for money and economic side of things into perspective. I mean, I like Tesla and manufacturers of other EVs for what they are trying to do and especially Tesla's are a pleasure to drive, but right now it's just not the right time (yet) to go all-electric, it needs many more years and a highly improved infrastructure (also for green energy, let's start at the very beginning before polluting the country even more to 'fuel' the EVs in the future for god's sake) for it to become the standard. Until then, the government should be focusing on the largest polluters in the Netherlands and not wasting effort and time on unfounded 'issues' like attempting to ban the sales of combustion engine cars. I can already predict the headlines if they go through with this and fail to set it up properly: "Emissions from coal-fueled power plants that are working overtime to generate electricity for the country's many EVs appear to be greater than all combined emissions just 10 years ago". Just my two cents
__________________
MY SHOWCASE
FLICKR / MY TRAVELS:
[2016] > Norway, Valencia, Arvidsjaur, Innsbruck, Moselvalley, Geneva, Lisbon, Basel, Vosges, Munich, Trieste, Barcelona, Nürburgring, Frankfurt, Spa, Berlin, Wuppertal, Dortmund, Como, Monaco, Saint-Tropez, Tegernsee, Hamburg, Lübeck, Madrid, Stuttgart, Faro, Hochgurgl
[2017] > Düsseldorf, Mallorca, Geneva, Annecy, Montafon, Vorarlberg, Barcelona, Zürich, Crete, Lisbon, Cascais, Málaga, Ronda, Dolomiti, Sistiana, Kitzbühel

ChrisZwolle, 909, EasySeven, keokiracer, EPA001 liked this post

Last edited by Ni3lS; April 17th, 2016 at 02:51 AM.
Ni3lS no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2016, 07:15 PM   #13517
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21252

Today the had the "Truck Tour" here, a procession of trucks honking loudly through the streets of Tilburg.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2016, 08:48 PM   #13518
Slagathor
Gay love is love too
 
Slagathor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Hague
Posts: 8,466
Likes (Received): 6165

Isn't that what every day in Tilburg is like?
Slagathor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 17th, 2016, 08:51 PM   #13519
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21252

There is an album of last year's event: http://www.trucktourtilburg.nl/fotoalbums-2015
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2016, 11:41 AM   #13520
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2156

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ni3lS View Post
It's an interesting topic that could potentially have great consequences for our country's infrastructure and economy. I value the government's interest in trying to reduce CO2 emissions although I feel like motions like this one aren't helping at all. The EU has been a pain to the automotive industry for years now with ever changing CO2 regulations while in my opinion they should focus on the real pollution; Farming and coal fueled power plants.

I think effectively car emissions contribute a small fraction to the total CO2 emissions in the Netherlands and Europe. I think time and money are better spent going after the real pollution rather than coming up with all kinds of regulations, rules and subsidies that don't work. A nice example are the subsidies for plug-in hybrids that have been going on for years that have now proven to be an absolute joke. They're great value for businesses that lease cars, sure, but it absolutely defeats the purpose. People that lease such cars just do it out of fiscal motives, not so much to help nature. What happens next is that most Plug-in hybrid drivers don't charge their cars which means they run on the combustion engine only, which needs to take more fuel because of the missing electrical boost resulting in an average more CO2 emissions.

Sure the government have caught up by now that human beings aren't as rational as they think they would be and misusing the cars because they simply don't care, resulting in an even worse environmental impact than ever before. Now the subsidies will disappear from next year onwards, after having created a market for these plug-in hybrids and letting spend car manufacturers billions into the development and production of these cars to find out that they will be useless in a matter of years, especially once the fully electrical cars and hydrogen / green gas cars will start to pick up pace.

I'm afraid that his ambitious motion for 2025 is a similar and stupid goal of equal magnitude. I speak from experience when saying that fully electrical cars (Tesla) aren't as green as they are believed to be. Electricity needs to come from somewhere and Tesla are quite the performance oriented car maker. The extra performance leads to more use of electricity and more frequent charging. I don't know if any of you have ever handled a Tesla supercharger, the cable is almost twice as thick as my underarm. I have experienced a peak of 312 Amps at a time fully charging a Tesla in a few minutes time and only taking an hour or two to completely drain the battery. With a full Tesla battery you can power your entire house for an estimated two weeks to put things into perspective.

I'm not even talking about the electricity and emissions it takes to produce the car's lithium ion batteries or all other components. Also, I once charged at one of these Fastned stations and had to pay €21 for a quarter battery (110 kilometers range), that is almost twice the price of gasoline (a joke), just to put the value for money and economic side of things into perspective. I mean, I like Tesla and manufacturers of other EVs for what they are trying to do and especially Tesla's are a pleasure to drive, but right now it's just not the right time (yet) to go all-electric, it needs many more years and a highly improved infrastructure (also for green energy, let's start at the very beginning before polluting the country even more to 'fuel' the EVs in the future for god's sake) for it to become the standard. Until then, the government should be focusing on the largest polluters in the Netherlands and not wasting effort and time on unfounded 'issues' like attempting to ban the sales of combustion engine cars. I can already predict the headlines if they go through with this and fail to set it up properly: "Emissions from coal-fueled power plants that are working overtime to generate electricity for the country's many EVs appear to be greater than all combined emissions just 10 years ago". Just my two cents
The CO2 hype in automobile transportation has to do with oil dependency not with pollution. Pollution is just marketing to sell it.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
congestion, dutch, friesland, highways, motorways, netherlands

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium