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Old January 14th, 2017, 02:28 PM   #14201
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Don't forget that the VAT of 21% is added after that BPM. But it's a political choice to be made, hence the Netherlands put a lot of money in public transport to seduce people to use that instead.
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Old January 14th, 2017, 02:50 PM   #14202
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VAT exists in every other EU country as well so it's not really fair to group it together with an additional car purchase tax.

An average €4,000 car tax probably equals to about 15-20% of the price of an average car? That's not too bad compared to Denmark, for example, where the car purchase tax is over 100%.
The average tax rate has dropped quite a bit. In 2008, the peak year of car sales and BPM revenue, it was an average of € 7,085 per new car.

But the tax rates vary quite a lot depending on fuel type and CO2 emissions. For example a car with 120 grams/km of CO2 will cost you € 4248 if it is a petrol car, but € 8548 if it is a diesel car.

The effects;
* few people buy a new car
* few people drive a diesel car (only about 15% of all cars)
* automatic transmission is quite expensive compared to manual transmission (usually at least € 2,000 more expensive, but € 6,000 is not uncommon either).*

But there are a lot of variables. For example, excise duty on diesel fuel is quite low. But few people drive a diesel car due to the high BPM and also due to the high road tax (typically 2.5 - 3 times more than a similar petrol car).

* for example the new Kia Rio with automatic transmission is priced at € 26,235 while the same model with manual transmission cost € 20,235.
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Old January 14th, 2017, 05:55 PM   #14203
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Car purchase taxes in Italy is as follows:

Quote:
Imposta Provinciale di Trascrizione variable (150/200 euro)
Emolumenti ACI 27,00 euro
Imposta di bollo per iscrizione al PRA 32,00 euro
Diritti DT 10,20 euro
Imposta di bollo per rilascio carta di circolazione 32,00 euro
Costo delle targhe variable (10/40 euro)
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Old January 14th, 2017, 06:44 PM   #14204
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Quote:
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* automatic transmission is quite expensive compared to manual transmission (usually at least € 2,000 more expensive, but € 6,000 is not uncommon either).*

* for example the new Kia Rio with automatic transmission is priced at € 26,235 while the same model with manual transmission cost € 20,235.
What is a rationale for that? Manual transmission is more efficient if you are an outstanding driver, but most people are not so I suspect that on average the opposite is true.
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Old January 14th, 2017, 10:06 PM   #14205
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What is a rationale for that? Manual transmission is more efficient if you are an outstanding driver, but most people are not so I suspect that on average the opposite is true.
The opposite is usually true because people are lazy. You really don't have to be an outstanding driver to make a manual transmission worthwhile. Now the more recent automatic gearboxes are tough to beat though, the 9G-TRONIC from Mercedes for example. Driving 200 at 1,800 rpm, pure bliss
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Old January 14th, 2017, 10:17 PM   #14206
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Quote:
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What is a rationale for that? Manual transmission is more efficient if you are an outstanding driver, but most people are not so I suspect that on average the opposite is true.
It's not only about efficiency, it's all about the driving experience.

Manual transmission feels like real driving. Driving an automatic is no fun at all.
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Old January 14th, 2017, 11:01 PM   #14207
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It's not only about efficiency, it's all about the driving experience.

Manual transmission feels like real driving. Driving an automatic is no fun at all.
I bet people setting prices couldn't care less about this argument
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Old January 15th, 2017, 12:05 AM   #14208
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No, but it can better explain why automatic cars are not that much sold in NL. Even more than the higher price.
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Old January 15th, 2017, 12:23 AM   #14209
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I believe it's 90% about the price. In US vast majority of cars are automatic and their culture is more car based than the one in Netherlands. Wouldn't be easy to prove it though...
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Old January 15th, 2017, 12:46 AM   #14210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aswnl View Post
It's not only about efficiency, it's all about the driving experience.

Manual transmission feels like real driving. Driving an automatic is no fun at all.
Yeah because shifting a few hundred times during your daily share of traffic is one joyful experience
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Old January 15th, 2017, 12:56 AM   #14211
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but what is so specific to NL?

In USA automatic takes about 95% of the market and the cost difference of automatic and manual is trivial. And, USA has a relatively vocal number of people who prefer driving manual (enough to push BMW to make a manual M5 )
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Old January 15th, 2017, 01:27 AM   #14212
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The question is much simpler: automatic transmissions just cost more than the manuals because they're much more complicated devices. A lot more.

They also use(d) to be penalized in terms of efficiency, hence the burden on fuel consumption and CO2 emissions (and so taxes), but this is not true anymore for recent 7-, 8- and 9-speed boxes.


In Europe it's traditional to have manual boxes on cheap cars (because the device is cheaper indeed) and autos on high-end cars, either for reasons of comfort or performance (different kind of A/T).
In the US the A/T is the standard while stick is seen as something for petrolheads, and just a few know how to use it.

Overall I'm more in favour of the American approach, since here every learning driver must fight with the Devil's clutch instead of actually learning how to manage the car on the road; and even once they learn, most people will always make a ghastly use of the thing (which makes the efficiency advantage purely theorical...).
A much higher demand for A/Ts on cheap cars should help reducing the prices.
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Old January 15th, 2017, 07:55 AM   #14213
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I disagree. I think everybody should learn how to use a manual gearbox as long as they are so prevalent in Europe. I mean, you can still get a license by only driving an automatic at least in Estonia but that license isn't then valid for driving manual cars which is perfectly fair by me.

Although you can get automatic (or dual-clutch) gearboxes for even small cars nowadays, they cost quite a bit more. E.g. for cheaper VW-group brands (Seat, Škoda) the DSG/automatic option is around € 1,500 more expensive so it makes little sense for a sub €20,000 car.
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Old January 15th, 2017, 11:46 AM   #14214
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Let's say it straight: you drive manual, but A/T drives you.
Personally I hate driving A/T, even new generation A/Ts. I feel like the car is controlling me and not the opposite. In my case if I had an A/T it would be solely a small car for the city (traffic jams are the only place where A/Ts make sense to me). On the opposite, the more the engine is powerful, the more it is fun to have manual transmissions.
But I'm afraid we are "a bit" OT
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Old January 15th, 2017, 04:31 PM   #14215
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Just a last question since I've never driven automatic (or better: I have, but the car also had flappy paddle gears).
How do they perform in steep descents, when you want to engage your engine brake? Don't they shift up all the time?
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Old January 15th, 2017, 04:44 PM   #14216
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Modern ones understand the situation and downshift, but you may still get mixed results compared to manual control. Older units just didn't care.

What they really all lack is automatic downshifting to perform engine braking instead of pedal braking. They all rely on you pushing the brake pedal to understand you want to lose speed, and even in that case they never downshift until you apply throttle again.
This ruins fuel consumption, which gets a big help from engine brake; and even worse you constantly end up at roundabouts at 15 km/h with 5th gear and the engine stalled and you'd like to accelerate quickly but you have to wait for it to understand, remove 3 gears, resuscitate the engine and here we go...

Basically, they're becoming a lot smarter and faster but they'll never be able to predict what you're about to need in a few moments, they always rely on explicit inputs (which happen after you need a downshift).

This said, I still believe that even a poor A/T will do better than the average folk.
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Old January 15th, 2017, 05:10 PM   #14217
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[...] even worse you constantly end up at roundabouts at 15 km/h with 5th gear and the engine stalled and you'd like to accelerate quickly but you have to wait for it to understand, remove 3 gears, resuscitate the engine and here we go...
This actually doesn't sound like a typical hydraulic automatic transmission, but more like an automated manual gearbox, which is the cheapest option for building some automatic transmission.
Direct-shift gearbox/dual clutch transmission may also suffer from the mentioned problem, but less than such an automated manual one.
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Old January 15th, 2017, 05:18 PM   #14218
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Automatic transmission is quite common on cars seen as a 'status symbol' (i.e. higher end German cars). Most regular family cars and smaller do not have automatic transmission in the Netherlands.

As mentioned, not many consumers buy a new car in the Netherlands, and even fewer buy one with automatic transmission due to the added expense. As a result, they don't make their way down in the used car market, so if you want a smaller used car with automatic transmission, there aren't many options or you would have to import it from another country.
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Old January 15th, 2017, 05:41 PM   #14219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ni3lS View Post
Now the more recent automatic gearboxes are tough to beat though, the 9G-TRONIC from Mercedes for example. Driving 200 at 1,800 rpm, pure bliss
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Automatic transmission is quite common on cars seen as a 'status symbol' (i.e. higher end German cars).
Daimler even builds more automation transmissions (7G-TRONIC + 9G-TRONIC + double clutch transmission) than they sell cars (> 2 million / year)
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Old January 15th, 2017, 07:04 PM   #14220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Modern ones understand the situation and downshift, but you may still get mixed results compared to manual control. Older units just didn't care.

What they really all lack is automatic downshifting to perform engine braking instead of pedal braking. They all rely on you pushing the brake pedal to understand you want to lose speed, and even in that case they never downshift until you apply throttle again.
This ruins fuel consumption, which gets a big help from engine brake; and even worse you constantly end up at roundabouts at 15 km/h with 5th gear and the engine stalled and you'd like to accelerate quickly but you have to wait for it to understand, remove 3 gears, resuscitate the engine and here we go...

Basically, they're becoming a lot smarter and faster but they'll never be able to predict what you're about to need in a few moments, they always rely on explicit inputs (which happen after you need a downshift).

This said, I still believe that even a poor A/T will do better than the average folk.
But every A/T had a simple function of just manually downshifting for these steep descents... older ones had a setup of "locking out" the higher gear (so instead of using the 3 speeds, would only use 1 and 2 or just 1) and the newer ones allow you to lock a particular speed (like 4th...)
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