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Old January 16th, 2017, 10:06 AM   #14241
g.spinoza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The major environmental benefit of electric cars is to take away pollution at point of use. Pollution stops being an issue altogether. They are also much less noisy at speeds below 60-70 km/h or so. Incredibly so.
The latter is already being addressed: some countries are passing laws demanding that electric cars generate a certain amount of artificial noise in order to protect pedestrians.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 11:30 AM   #14242
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As I read earlier, almost all motorways in NL have a porous asphalt (PA) top layer.
How often (in years) do they have to repave the motorway with PA?
Is there a way how to prolong a lifetime of PA? (fraction, cleaning etc.)
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Old January 16th, 2017, 11:41 AM   #14243
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Just a last question since I've never driven automatic (or better: I have, but the car also had flappy paddle gears).
How do they perform in steep descents, when you want to engage your engine brake? Don't they shift up all the time?
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Modern ones understand the situation and downshift, but you may still get mixed results compared to manual control. Older units just didn't care.

What they really all lack is automatic downshifting to perform engine braking instead of pedal braking. They all rely on you pushing the brake pedal to understand you want to lose speed, and even in that case they never downshift until you apply throttle again.
This ruins fuel consumption, which gets a big help from engine brake; and even worse you constantly end up at roundabouts at 15 km/h with 5th gear and the engine stalled and you'd like to accelerate quickly but you have to wait for it to understand, remove 3 gears, resuscitate the engine and here we go...

Basically, they're becoming a lot smarter and faster but they'll never be able to predict what you're about to need in a few moments, they always rely on explicit inputs (which happen after you need a downshift).

This said, I still believe that even a poor A/T will do better than the average folk.
Not exactly a common problem in the Netherlands anyway. Geographically, it's the perfect place for A/Ts.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 12:18 PM   #14244
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I was exactly thinking that
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Old January 16th, 2017, 12:41 PM   #14245
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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
The latter is already being addressed: some countries are passing laws demanding that electric cars generate a certain amount of artificial noise in order to protect pedestrians.
Yes but that noise is still very low and it's directional. Many don't know this but the Nissan Leaf already produces an artificial 'electric car noise' below 30 km/h that's projected in front of the car. It's just enough to be noticed but nothing compared to a petrol or diesel engine. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...061105343.html
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Old January 16th, 2017, 12:45 PM   #14246
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Originally Posted by mapman:cz View Post
As I read earlier, almost all motorways in NL have a porous asphalt (PA) top layer.
How often (in years) do they have to repave the motorway with PA?
Is there a way how to prolong a lifetime of PA? (fraction, cleaning etc.)
The aim is 10 to 12 years, after which they resurface the top layer. They do this mostly on a preventive basis, so they don't have to reconstruct the sublayers and foundation. This is the reason why the Netherlands has almost no long-term roadworks for pavement rehabilitation. Most resurfacing is done at night or during weekends.

They do clean porous asphalt periodically to keep its drainage and noise reducing capabilities.
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Old January 16th, 2017, 01:59 PM   #14247
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I was exactly thinking that
I think I remember being told, as a small boy, that the modern A/T was invented in the Netherlands by DAF in the '60s or something (who still made passenger cars at the time). I have no idea how true that is, but it would at least explain why they're so crap at going downhill.

Foreign customer: "How do they work on steep descents?"

DAF engineer: "... What is this 'descent' thing you speak of?"

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Old January 16th, 2017, 03:19 PM   #14248
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Quote:
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The major environmental benefit of electric cars is to take away pollution at point of use. Pollution stops being an issue altogether. They are also much less noisy at speeds below 60-70 km/h or so. Incredibly so.
But it's okay to increase pollution elsewhere?
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Old January 16th, 2017, 04:31 PM   #14249
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The Velser Tunnel reopend to traffic this morning, after a 9 month closure for renovation.

There is still a height limit, it is explained in this video.

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Old January 16th, 2017, 06:08 PM   #14250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
I think I remember being told, as a small boy, that the modern A/T was invented in the Netherlands by DAF in the '60s or something (who still made passenger cars at the time). I have no idea how true that is, but it would at least explain why they're so crap at going downhill.

Foreign customer: "How do they work on steep descents?"

DAF engineer: "... What is this 'descent' thing you speak of?"

My mother used to own a Daf 33. Because of the Variomatic transmission, driving in reverse could be done just as fast as driving forward - depending on the driver's abilities, of course.
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Old January 17th, 2017, 01:17 AM   #14251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slagathor View Post
I think I remember being told, as a small boy, that the modern A/T was invented in the Netherlands by DAF in the '60s or something (who still made passenger cars at the time). I have no idea how true that is, but it would at least explain why they're so crap at going downhill.
It is half true - DAF was first with a passenger car run by a continuously-variable transmission, adapting the long-known "cone pulley and belt" setup to a (necessarily extremely light and low-power) vehicle

but Oldsmobile (GM) had the first traditional hydraulic/epicyclic fully automatic gearbox starting with the 1940 models. It worked well enough that some American tanks used these gearboxes with Cadillac V8 engines in WWII
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Old January 17th, 2017, 01:27 AM   #14252
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But it's okay to increase pollution elsewhere?
It's easier to control and mitigate pollution in one large factory instead of 10,000 small autonomous vehicles. Effect of scale and everything...
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Old January 17th, 2017, 01:29 AM   #14253
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but the effects of pollution in a point source are very large. The effects of pollution distributed widely are essentially zero. (in a Dutch context, all the cars in Zeeland have no air quality impact anywhere whatsoever...)
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Old January 17th, 2017, 02:50 AM   #14254
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The Velser Tunnel reopend to traffic this morning, after a 9 month closure for renovation.

There is still a height limit, it is explained in this video.
Why do they show the 'recommended height' instead of the standard red circle sign which is much more intuitive.

Last edited by MrAronymous; January 17th, 2017 at 02:58 AM.
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Old January 17th, 2017, 11:49 PM   #14255
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Only height limits lower than 4 meters are shown in a red circle, because 4 meters is already the maximum vehicle height everywhere. The advisory height signs are used to indicate the clearance height, rather than the maximum height.
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Old January 18th, 2017, 11:04 AM   #14256
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It's still odd. I have never seen an advisory height limit before.
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Old January 18th, 2017, 11:13 AM   #14257
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Bob

The anti 'driving under influence' campaign turned 15 years. The 'bob' campaign was created to designate a sober driver. It was created by the Belgians in 1995 and adopted in the Netherlands in 2001. It is seen as succesful, designating a sober driver for the trip back home from a party is now commonplace, and the number of alcohol related traffic offenses have been reduced by half.

In 2002, sobriety checkpoints caught 4% of drivers with a blood alcohol content of 0,5‰ or higher, in 2015 it was 1.7% (checkpoints during weekend nights). It's not uncommon for sobriety checkpoints to end up with no offenses.
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Old January 18th, 2017, 04:29 PM   #14258
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busiest tunnels in the Netherlands

These are the tunnels with the highest traffic volume in the Netherlands:

1) Leidsche Rijn Tunnel (A2, Utrecht): 198,000 vehicles per day.
2) Schiphol Tunnel (A4, Schiphol Airport): 176,500 v.p.d.
3) Drecht Tunnel (A16, Dordrecht): 143,600 v.p.d.
4) Benelux Tunnel (A4, Rotterdam): 133,500 v.p.d.
5) Coen Tunnel (A10, Amsterdam): 127,500 v.p.d.
6) Zeeburg Tunnel (A10, Amsterdam): 117,000 v.p.d.
7) Noord Tunnel (A15, Dordrecht): 101,400 v.p.d.

Traffic volume data from 2015, workday averages
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Old January 18th, 2017, 07:51 PM   #14259
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busiest bridges in the Netherlands

These are the busiest bridges in the Netherlands:

1) A16 Van Brienenoord Bridge (Rotterdam): 229,600
2) A10 Schinkel Bridge (Amsterdam): 224,300
3) A12 Galecopper Bridge (Utrecht): 216,600
4) A10 Rozenoord Bridge (Amsterdam): 209,400
5) A1 Muiden Bridge (Amsterdam): 182,300
6) A2 Jan Blanken Bridge (Utrecht): 154,900
7) A10 Zeeburg Bridge (Amsterdam): 140,300
8) A2 Empel Bridge (Den Bosch): 137,000
8) A2 Martinus Nijhoff Bridge (Zaltbommel): 137,000
9) A16 Moerdijk Bridge: 129,700
10) A28 Katerveer Bridge (Zwolle): 122,900
11) A27 Houten Bridge (Utrecht): 120,300
12) A12 IJssel Bridge (Arnhem): 116,000
13) A20 Giessen Bridge (Rotterdam): 115,600
14) A27 Hagestein Bridge (Utrecht): 113,000
15) A6 Holland Bridge (Almere): 108,900
16) A50 Tacitus Bridge (Nijmegen): 108,200
17) A28 Vecht Bridge (Zwolle): 106,900
18) A1 IJssel Bridge (Deventer): 102,000

Traffic volume data from 2015, workday averages
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Old January 18th, 2017, 08:45 PM   #14260
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Quote:
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I wouldn't be so sure. Energy storage still needs a major scientific breakthrough that's not in sight yet. It isn't sufficient just to put more batteries: they have to be way faster to charge, they must contain much more energy per unit mass, they should be made of cheaper materials and they shouldn't degrade so fast.

In 30 years, we will still drive fossil.
There are many incremental improvements like this one:

Czechs open production of batteries based on nanotechnology
https://phys.org/news/2016-12-czechs...echnology.html

Even though I expect the autonomous vehicles pick up faster than the electric cars. The fastest advancement we see in the last 50 years is in the computational power and software advances. I don't think that it will take a lifetime to teach cars drive. Certainly not in certain specific environments like motorways or dedicated lanes.
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