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View Poll Results: Which bid should host the FIFA World Cup 2018 / 2022?
Australia - 2018 255 12.32%
Belgium / Netherlands - 2018 247 11.94%
England - 2018 538 26.00%
Indonesia - 2018 68 3.29%
Japan - 2018 35 1.69%
Mexico - 2018 105 5.07%
Qatar - 2018 78 3.77%
Russia - 2018 279 13.48%
South Korea - 2018 16 0.77%
Spain / Portugal - 2018 267 12.90%
USA - 2018 116 5.61%
Australia - 2022 378 18.27%
Belgium / Netherlands - 2022 111 5.36%
England - 2022 114 5.51%
Indonesia - 2022 122 5.90%
Japan - 2022 37 1.79%
Mexico - 2022 149 7.20%
Qatar - 2022 153 7.39%
Russia - 2022 148 7.15%
South Korea - 2022 23 1.11%
Spain / Portugal - 2022 184 8.89%
USA - 2022 249 12.03%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 2069. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 19th, 2007, 01:40 AM   #2741
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Holland could do it:

Amsterdam 65000
Rotterdam 70000
Eindhoven 50000
Heerenveen 45000
Enschede 43000
Alkmaar 40000
Groningen 40000

Even without the WC, these capacities will probably be reached and filled. Some reconstruction have already started.

We would only need two from the list of:

Rotterdam 50000 (current Feyenoord stadium)
Amsterdam/Almere 80000 (possible olympic stadium for 2028 bid)
Kerkrade (temporary expansion to 40000)
Utrecht
The Hague
Arnhem
Breda

It would be a tight fit, but possible and not (on contrary to what a lot of people seem to think) "unneeded". The first 7 new stadiums/expansions will happen. WC or not.

And do you really think Fifa will ask a country to have at least a couple of other world cup quality stadiums left outside the bid just for the sake of it? If the bid consists of 9 or 10 stadiums with a minimum of 40000 seats (2 of 60000), you can make a valid bid. So Holland could do it.

But we've teamed up with Belgium, and that makes the chances of more stadium choices even bigger. But please, can we stop the arguments "Holland and Belgium don't need all those big stadiums". They are false. We do need them.
if Holland could host it alone then they would have bid alone, but they need Belgium to make a formidable bid, even then its a joint bid which most people do not like.

@your last paragraph: no they don't need them, for the world cup yes but otherwise no.
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Old November 19th, 2007, 01:58 AM   #2742
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if Holland could host it alone then they would have bid alone, but they need Belgium to make a formidable bid, even then its a joint bid which most people do not like.

@your last paragraph: no they don't need them, for the world cup yes but otherwise no.
We didn't go for a bid because Holland has a traditional lack of guts when it comes to these kind of things. On contrary to our international reputation. We always look at problems instead of opportunities.

Belgium wanted to do a bid and they needed us...

BTW, Could you please tell me why we don't need them? Our league has the same average attendance as the Serie A and it's only slightly less than Ligue 1. You wouldn't question a French or Italian bid would you? The seven stadiums I mentioned will be build, whether or not the WC will be given to us. The same goes for at least 3 of the Belgian stadiums. So please, can you give me a valid argument as to why we don't need them. saying "you just don't need them" sounds a bit uneducated...
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Old November 19th, 2007, 02:33 AM   #2743
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We didn't go for a bid because Holland has a traditional lack of guts when it comes to these kind of things. On contrary to our international reputation. We always look at problems instead of opportunities.

Belgium wanted to do a bid and they needed us...

BTW, Could you please tell me why we don't need them? Our league has the same average attendance as the Serie A and it's only slightly less than Ligue 1. You wouldn't question a French or Italian bid would you? The seven stadiums I mentioned will be build, whether or not the WC will be given to us. The same goes for at least 3 of the Belgian stadiums. So please, can you give me a valid argument as to why we don't need them. saying "you just don't need them" sounds a bit uneducated...
well basically the capacities are rarely full.
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Old November 19th, 2007, 03:00 AM   #2744
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well basically the capacities are rarely full.
In Holland?!?!? You must be joking...

Each season pretty much every team sells out all available season tickets (apart from 3 or 4 small ones). In fact, I think our occupancy is as big as any other country in Europe. Check the numbers before you start claiming things...

Again (3rd time), AZ Alkmaar, Groningen, Heerenveen, Twente, PSV and Feyenoord were talking about these proposed capacities before this whole "WC bid thing" started.

But hey, according to you, even England (34000 average league attendance) would be a doubtful host as to "needing" the big stadiums. Germany (40000) are the only eligible to make a European Bid. Holland (18000) Italy (18000) and France (21000) don't need all those stadiums. Even Spain's average League attendance (28000) is waaay to small to justify a world cup bid (especially if you take the 2 80k+ averages from Barca and Madrid away...)

Come on, You don't want the Benelux to get it because you want England to get it. That's fine by me, but don't make up nonsense arguments. You don't have to, the English bid will be good enough by itself. You don't have to patronize our bid...
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Old November 19th, 2007, 03:27 AM   #2745
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In Holland?!?!? You must be joking...

Each season pretty much every team sells out all available season tickets (apart from 3 or 4 small ones). In fact, I think our occupancy is as big as any other country in Europe. Check the numbers before you start claiming things...

Again (3rd time), AZ Alkmaar, Groningen, Heerenveen, Twente, PSV and Feyenoord were talking about these proposed capacities before this whole "WC bid thing" started.

But hey, according to you, even England (34000 average league attendance) would be a doubtful host as to "needing" the big stadiums. Germany (40000) are the only eligible to make a European Bid. Holland (18000) Italy (18000) and France (21000) don't need all those stadiums. Even Spain's average League attendance (28000) is waaay to small to justify a world cup bid (especially if you take the 2 80k+ averages from Barca and Madrid away...)

Come on, You don't want the Benelux to get it because you want England to get it. That's fine by me, but don't make up nonsense arguments. You don't have to, the English bid will be good enough by itself. You don't have to patronize our bid...

I agree that there's no need to talk anyone else's bids down - the winning bid will be the best bid, end of story... However, why mention that England's average league attendance is 34000, but talk about Holland's proportion of tickets sold/available? It's too different stats - the English Premiership attendances, if you look at them on a club by club basis, are virtually all over 90% full on average (only Blackburn really let the league down)

Keep it positive - a Benelux bid would be good, and a tournament there would be good, I just suspect the bid won't be as strong as the English one (on the other hand, the fact you haven't hosted it before would have to count in your favour at least a bit).
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Old November 19th, 2007, 04:16 AM   #2746
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I agree that there's no need to talk anyone else's bids down - the winning bid will be the best bid, end of story... However, why mention that England's average league attendance is 34000, but talk about Holland's proportion of tickets sold/available? It's too different stats - the English Premiership attendances, if you look at them on a club by club basis, are virtually all over 90% full on average (only Blackburn really let the league down)

Keep it positive - a Benelux bid would be good, and a tournament there would be good, I just suspect the bid won't be as strong as the English one (on the other hand, the fact you haven't hosted it before would have to count in your favour at least a bit).

All I wanted to say by giving the 34000 number, was that by his arguments (Benelux doesn't need 40000 capacity stadiums) even an English bid could be questioned. Obviously, that was an extreme exaggeration...

Apparently a lot of non Benelux people seem to know better what we need or don't need. That's just insulting and patronizing. Saying "you don't need those stadiums" is uninformed nonsense... And, even if it were true, you seriously think FIFA gives a... on whether these stadiums will be full or or half full after the event?

Reasons why I think a Benelux bid could by successful in comparison to an English bid besides stadiums by the way.
-An English world cup COULD become a hooligan festival (You can keep them from going abroad during a tournament, but what if the tournament comes to you? You're going to export them to anther country for a month? Government payed vacation to Ibiza or something...?)
-The transportation infrastructure in the Benelux is superior to that in England. We may need to build stadiums, but England definitely needs to start building/organizing a proper rail and road network....

Last edited by mavn; November 19th, 2007 at 04:34 AM.
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Old November 19th, 2007, 10:46 AM   #2747
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All I wanted to say by giving the 34000 number, was that by his arguments (Benelux doesn't need 40000 capacity stadiums) even an English bid could be questioned. Obviously, that was an extreme exaggeration...

Apparently a lot of non Benelux people seem to know better what we need or don't need. That's just insulting and patronizing. Saying "you don't need those stadiums" is uninformed nonsense... And, even if it were true, you seriously think FIFA gives a... on whether these stadiums will be full or or half full after the event?

Reasons why I think a Benelux bid could by successful in comparison to an English bid besides stadiums by the way.
-An English world cup COULD become a hooligan festival (You can keep them from going abroad during a tournament, but what if the tournament comes to you? You're going to export them to anther country for a month? Government payed vacation to Ibiza or something...?)
-The transportation infrastructure in the Benelux is superior to that in England. We may need to build stadiums, but England definitely needs to start building/organizing a proper rail and road network....
- Euro 96, in England, had less trouble than virtually any tournament in recent memory. England knows how to police these things. Hooliganism is also no area for the Dutch to be getting on their high horse.
- The trains I'll give you, but if we have to rely on the Dutch road network to transport supoprters we are in trouble since it struggles to cope with the everyday level of traffic.

Having said that, I think the Benelux will put in a good bid. For me assuming Spain bid then it will be a good competition to be the hosts. Competition should mean that all 3 will have to try very hard to come up with something special to tip the vote. That has to be a good thing. Unlike the farce with brazil where they were given the world cup on a plate, no matter whether they had good plans or not. For me the deciding factors will be:

Spain: Spain should have a bid with great stadia but there may be a feeling of 'not their turn'.

Benelux: They can turn out as good bid, but in order to be a winning bid they will have to push the limits of their ambition, really go for it in terms of stadium improvements. Having the bare minimum number of 40-45 thousand stadiums means you can bid, but mow much do you want to win? In their favour is the, never before factor.

England: Similar to France 2012, you feel it's their's to lose. But we know what happened there. The big issue for me will be over-confidence. If they say our stadiums are already good enough as they are, i think they could lose out to Spain. They will have to show they want to really want it, that means making improvements for the tournament itself. Complacency will see Spain's stadium specification gradually overhaul Englands by 2018.
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Old November 19th, 2007, 01:24 PM   #2748
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Is there any indication Spain will bid? I've only ever heard it mentioned on internet forums, but not actually heard anything from the Spanish...
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Old November 19th, 2007, 04:51 PM   #2749
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I've just read in a Spanish newspaper that the Spanish Football Association expects to announce their bid for World Cup 2018 on the first semester of 2008.
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Old November 19th, 2007, 06:00 PM   #2750
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- Euro 96, in England, had less trouble than virtually any tournament in recent memory. England knows how to police these things. Hooliganism is also no area for the Dutch to be getting on their high horse.
- The trains I'll give you, but if we have to rely on the Dutch road network to transport supoprters we are in trouble since it struggles to cope with the everyday level of traffic.
You're right, Holland has it's fair share of hooliganism, but it's only between clubs. When the national team plays all hooligans seem to have vanished... In England it seems to be the other way round. I'm sure England can handle it, but Fifa will have a close eye on the matter. Any incidents at Euro 2008 could cause a serious problem for your bid. So let's hope all goes well (or Croatia would have to pull off an unexpected stunt). Because I think it would be very sad for any bid to fail for those reasons.

The road networks in Holland are crowded, granted, But especially the "Randstad" is one of the most crowded pieces of land in the world. Sure London on it's own is even more crowded, but from Schiphol airport (Especially by rail) you're faster in the city center of either Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague or Utrecht then you are in the city center of London from either Heathrow or Gatwick. And congestion wise, our roads probably aren't much worse (if any) than the roads in and around your big cities on a typical weekday.
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Old November 19th, 2007, 10:17 PM   #2751
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Is there any indication Spain will bid? I've only ever heard it mentioned on internet forums, but not actually heard anything from the Spanish...
Spain is in a bidding frenzy. madrid 2012 madrid 2016. spain 2018?
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Old November 19th, 2007, 11:15 PM   #2752
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Come on, You don't want the Benelux to get it because you want England to get it. That's fine by me, but don't make up nonsense arguments. You don't have to, the English bid will be good enough by itself. You don't have to patronize our bid...
Actually i don't have anything against the Benelux Bid, i'd prefer them to get it out of any other European Bid (apart from England of course). If Spain get it before England it would be absolutely scandalous.
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Old November 20th, 2007, 04:25 AM   #2753
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...Reasons why I think a Benelux bid could by successful in comparison to an English bid besides stadiums by the way.
-An English world cup COULD become a hooligan festival (You can keep them from going abroad during a tournament, but what if the tournament comes to you? You're going to export them to anther country for a month? Government payed vacation to Ibiza or something...?)
-The transportation infrastructure in the Benelux is superior to that in England. We may need to build stadiums, but England definitely needs to start building/organizing a proper rail and road network....
Where do you get the idea you can stop hooligans from travelling to another country? Are you saying the last WC in Germany was trouble free? No matter what sanctions you put on people, they still find a way around them and travel! If the Benelux bid can guarantee not one hooligan will cross their boarders I would give them every World Cup.

And your claim about the transport system in the UK. You make it sound like England is a third World country. Yes the roads & trains can be improved, name a country with a perfect system? And yes, of course we have a proper road and rail network. In fact I've heard they may even begin to convert the road lights from gas to this new thing called electricity! Some English motorways even have 6-7 lanes in each direction at certain points, yet during rush hour they still lock up. The congestion may just have to do with the fact it's a small island with 60 million inhabitants. Nothing to do with not having any road system in place, as you stated.

Fans from further afield would probably only use air travel as their means of transport including internally. And Britain has very good international airports at every major city, sometimes two and in London's case even three.

For Germany '06, England took over 100,000 supporters to the finals. Other nations took similar amounts. Let's see how your countries transportation system copes in such circumstances. Because I bet it hasn't been tested like that before?
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Old November 20th, 2007, 05:28 AM   #2754
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Where do you get the idea you can stop hooligans from travelling to another country? Are you saying the last WC in Germany was trouble free? No matter what sanctions you put on people, they still find a way around them and travel! If the Benelux bid can guarantee not one hooligan will cross their boarders I would give them every World Cup.
I've always understood that because of a "football law" during an EC or WC all by Police registered hooligans aren't allowed to leave England. The same way that they have to report to a local police station when their team plays. Holland is currently trying to copy that system and is always referring to the English system. And let's face it. In international football the English fans have a pretty bad reputation. Sure, allmost all of them have fine manners but a small group always manages to **** it up for everyone.

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And your claim about the transport system in the UK. You make it sound like England is a third World country. Yes the roads & trains can be improved, name a country with a perfect system? And yes, of course we have a proper road and rail network. In fact I've heard they may even begin to convert the road lights from gas to this new thing called electricity! Some English motorways even have 6-7 lanes in each direction at certain points, yet during rush hour they still lock up. The congestion may just have to do with the fact it's a small island with 60 million inhabitants. Nothing to do with not having any road system in place, as you stated.
Whichever way you put it, our transportation networks are way more efficient. Our roads aren't more congested (not much les either i'll admit), and our country is more densely populated than England (Especially if you take away London for a second wich is a country on it's own to a certain degree...)

When it comes to rail networks, I just learned on tv tonight that we have reletively a more or less perfect system. We've got the busiest rail network (amount of trains per hour per track) in the world. The government even aims to increase that by at least a factor of 1,5 in the coming years. But we're number 3 in the world when it comes to punctuality aswell. That pretty much speaks for itself. The English rail network is a complete mess. Far behind any other west-European country.

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Fans from further afield would probably only use air travel as their means of transport including internally. And Britain has very good international airports at every major city, sometimes two and in London's case even three.
All nice and well, but from Schiphol Airport (4th busiest airport in europe, 12th in the world. heathrow nr 1 and 3) it takes less time to get in the city center of either Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague or Utrecht then it wil take you to get in the City center of London from either Heathrow or Gatwick... That pretty much says it all doesn't it? And we have several other airports off course that can spread the passenger load. Besides that, we are better connected to the European High speed rail network than England is.

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For Germany '06, England took over 100,000 supporters to the finals. Other nations took similar amounts. Let's see how your countries transportation system copes in such circumstances. Because I bet it hasn't been tested like that before?
Has yours? From the top of my head I would say you had Euro 1996 and the commonwealth games in Manchester (way smaller), we had Euro 2000. I think we both managed alright. And I'm not claiming that England can't handle the amount of people, I'm just saying we at the moment can do it better and faster. Currently our overall transportation network is more refined than yours. Things could chance off course by 2018.
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Old November 20th, 2007, 01:21 PM   #2755
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Transport was used by opponents of our 2012 bid to suggest we shouldn't get the Olympics. See how that turned out.

I'm not too worried about transport. Hundreds of thousands of football fans use public transport to get to football grounds every week in England. The stations around these stadiums are used to taking many, many people in a short period of time.
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Old November 20th, 2007, 02:57 PM   #2756
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[QUOTE=mavn;16588581]I've always understood that because of a "football law" during an EC or WC all by Police registered hooligans aren't allowed to leave England. The same way that they have to report to a local police station when their team plays. Holland is currently trying to copy that system and is always referring to the English system. And let's face it. In international football the English fans have a pretty bad reputation. Sure, allmost all of them have fine manners but a small group always manages to **** it up for everyone.

Whichever way you put it, our transportation networks are way more efficient. Our roads aren't more congested (not much les either i'll admit), and our country is more densely populated than England (Especially if you take away London for a second wich is a country on it's own to a certain degree...)

When it comes to rail networks, I just learned on tv tonight that we have reletively a more or less perfect system. We've got the busiest rail network (amount of trains per hour per track) in the world. The government even aims to increase that by at least a factor of 1,5 in the coming years. But we're number 3 in the world when it comes to punctuality aswell. That pretty much speaks for itself. The English rail network is a complete mess. Far behind any other west-European country.

All nice and well, but from Schiphol Airport (4th busiest airport in europe, 12th in the world. heathrow nr 1 and 3) it takes less time to get in the city center of either Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague or Utrecht then it wil take you to get in the City center of London from either Heathrow or Gatwick... That pretty much says it all doesn't it? And we have several other airports off course that can spread the passenger load. Besides that, we are better connected to the European High speed rail network than England is.





i respect the fact that your trying to defend your bid.But do you think you can compare those countries to england.Every week in this country it's like the world cup with 92 league clubs playing week in week out,our top two leagues in the top four attendences in europe and do we hear of transport problems-no you don't(i don't doubt we have problems but what country doesn't we do have 46 million living in england you know and only about 680 miles long).we have the stadiums to which your country clearly doesn't yet we will get the world cup as we deserve it.Don't forget we invented the bloody game and that alone should mean we get it.By the way look into crossrail london the major rail link from canary wharf to maidstone tell me then can you not get to heathrow to london city in quick time it's only costing 16 billion pounds now thats investment my friend gatwick to the centre of london takes about thirty mins on the gawick express.and yes we are connected to the european high speed network please do your homework pal.transport clearly won't be an issue.As regards hooligenism that is no longer a major issue we have the best police set up in europe for that and one you cannot dispute as it is fact you should be more worried about germany,poland,holland and italy dude.

Last edited by marrio415; November 20th, 2007 at 03:04 PM.
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Old November 20th, 2007, 03:54 PM   #2757
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i respect the fact that your trying to defend your bid.But do you think you can compare those countries to england.Every week in this country it's like the world cup with 92 league clubs playing week in week out,our top two leagues in the top four attendences in europe and do we hear of transport problems-no you don't(i don't doubt we have problems but what country doesn't we do have 46 million living in england you know and only about 680 miles long).we have the stadiums to which your country clearly doesn't yet we will get the world cup as we deserve it.Don't forget we invented the bloody game and that alone should mean we get it.By the way look into crossrail london the major rail link from canary wharf to maidstone tell me then can you not get to heathrow to london city in quick time it's only costing 16 billion pounds now thats investment my friend gatwick to the centre of london takes about thirty mins on the gawick express.and yes we are connected to the european high speed network please do your homework pal.transport clearly won't be an issue.As regards hooligenism that is no longer a major issue we have the best police set up in europe for that and one you cannot dispute as it is fact you should be more worried about germany,poland,holland and italy dude.

The passenger load on a weekday is bigger than on a saturday afternoon, so I don't get what you are trying to say with the first part... And about the stadiums. We'll have them by 2018. Whether we get the WC or not.

Apparently you seem to think you have a divine right to organize the world cup. Here's one for you: You organized it once. We didn't. Wait in line, it's our turn...

Good to hear you're going to do something about the connections between the center of London and your Airports. We're are more efecient at it at the moment and also keep improving it as well. And I did my homework, pal. I said We're are BETTER connected to the high speed rail networks. We have two lines. From the south (France) through Belgium and from the East (Germany). You only have the channel tunnel.

When fans want to come to the worldcup we can offer them (to get into the country) 2 High speed rail links, several normal speed rail links, Numerous motorways, and Airports that are better connected to several city centers. To get into England you have 1 High speed rail link, 1 normal speed rail link, no moterways and bigger Airports which are less connected to their own city center than the dutch are to several. You can't really argue with that can you? The facts speak for themselves.

On the Hooligan part, I think English reputation in international football speaks for itself... Not wanting to disregard problems with other countries, but when next summer the English will make problems again, it could have a negative impact on your bid. Like the riots in Italy have had for the Italian bid for Euro 2012. We have our share of club rivalry hooliganism in Holland, but I think we can be pretty sure that it won't happen with the "Orange" fans. It would be a first in history


The funny thing here, is that most of the English seem to think they have a god given right to get the WC in 2018. You criticize all other bids with arguments that are in some cases uninformed and in some simply false. But when somebody reveals a relative weak spot in your bid(in comparison to other bids) You start to come up with all kinds of excuses and stuff. Already i've read a few times that congestion is normal for you because there are so many of you on a small piece of land. Get your facts straight. Holland and Belgium are more densely populated than you are and therefor it's population forms a bigger burden on public transportation. Yet we achieve better results... especially on public transport. And since It will be pretty hard to get into England by car, public transport will be vital for you. You simply can't argue with that.
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Old November 20th, 2007, 04:08 PM   #2758
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Transport was used by opponents of our 2012 bid to suggest we shouldn't get the Olympics. See how that turned out.

I'm not too worried about transport. Hundreds of thousands of football fans use public transport to get to football grounds every week in England. The stations around these stadiums are used to taking many, many people in a short period of time.
And England criticized France that "Stade de France" would be too old and outdated by 2012. You dangled all kinds of fantastic stadium designs in front of the electing committee. Now that you got it, you managed to come up with the worst olympic stadium (relatvie to it's time) ever... Even in 2012, the Stade the France will be way more beautifull. Let alone 2013...

And this stunt should pretty much stops any English criticism were a country to make a WC bid which incorporates 1 or 2 temporary extensions because they can't sustain all those stadiums. You managed to come up with a temporary design when you only have to build 1 (so to peak) stadium...
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Old November 20th, 2007, 04:10 PM   #2759
Joop20
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Originally Posted by marrio415 View Post
Don't forget we invented the bloody game and that alone should mean we get it.
That argument sucks, dude.
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Old November 20th, 2007, 04:12 PM   #2760
RobH
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The funny thing here, is that most of the English seem to think they have a god given right to get the WC in 2018
That's simply not true. I read marrio415's post and cringed at some of his reasons for England deserving the world cup (i.e. "Don't forget we invented the bloody game and that alone should mean we get it").

I hope thast was meant as tongue in cheek (if it was, fair enough ) marrio415 because that sort of sentiment doesn't win anyone over!

Manv, it may be the case that your transport is better than ours, but I doubt ours is that much worse that it'll make any difference to voting members' intentions in four years time.

I think England and China are probably the two early favourites, but a lot can happen in four years. It'll be a great race though!
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