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View Poll Results: Which bid should host the FIFA World Cup 2018 / 2022?
Australia - 2018 255 12.32%
Belgium / Netherlands - 2018 247 11.94%
England - 2018 538 26.00%
Indonesia - 2018 68 3.29%
Japan - 2018 35 1.69%
Mexico - 2018 105 5.07%
Qatar - 2018 78 3.77%
Russia - 2018 279 13.48%
South Korea - 2018 16 0.77%
Spain / Portugal - 2018 267 12.90%
USA - 2018 116 5.61%
Australia - 2022 378 18.27%
Belgium / Netherlands - 2022 111 5.36%
England - 2022 114 5.51%
Indonesia - 2022 122 5.90%
Japan - 2022 37 1.79%
Mexico - 2022 149 7.20%
Qatar - 2022 153 7.39%
Russia - 2022 148 7.15%
South Korea - 2022 23 1.11%
Spain / Portugal - 2022 184 8.89%
USA - 2022 249 12.03%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 2069. You may not vote on this poll

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Old March 20th, 2009, 03:26 AM   #4781
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who you backing for 2018 and 2022 then?

for me, england 2018, australia 2022.
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Old March 20th, 2009, 04:01 AM   #4782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
...We bring through our own talent, and as you can see now it's largely english,...
Mostly English, you are having a laugh right?

http://www.arsenal.com/first-team/players

I can count two
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Old March 20th, 2009, 05:12 AM   #4783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiBrit View Post
Mostly English, you are having a laugh right?

http://www.arsenal.com/first-team/players

I can count two
when are you gonna learn to stop selectively quoting, it seems whenever you reply to a post by me it's to try and score points. But you ALWAYS fail!

Quote:
We bring through our own talent, and as you can see now it's largely english, because Wenger has taken this long to sort the academy out to foreign standards.
If you put into context what i said, i was quite clearly referring to the talent coming from our academy, which is overwhelming English and of a higher standard to previous generations... just stop!
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Old March 20th, 2009, 05:35 AM   #4784
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I appologise for the last post, I see what you mean.

However, I would bet almost all teams academies would be mostly English players anyway? Wenger has been in charge at Arsenal for a long time and his record of nurturing English players is pretty average to say the least. Surely you have to base it on his first teams now and in the past?
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Old March 20th, 2009, 06:02 AM   #4785
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It is SOOOOOOOOO REFRESHING to read an englishman discussing world and English football with a clear perspective.

Even in New Zealand, the english media influenced NZers to think that England was one of the favorites in each and every tournament. Now that I live in Australia, the same sort of thing is going on but to a less degree due to the large groups of migrants from the continent that live here (Italians, Greeks).

I agree with basically all of your points bigbossman. For years Ive heard excuses for Englands failings. So many of them are riddled with holes. Keep up the good work.

Last edited by woozoo; March 20th, 2009 at 06:08 AM.
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Old March 20th, 2009, 06:07 AM   #4786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jizzy View Post
1966..true it may be a long time, but considering the number of countries who won it..i'd say we're still one of the best in the world. jealous naysayers can go kill themselves.
Uruguay has won it twice, does that make them twice as good as England?

Hell, even Hungary has made the finals twice - does that make them a football powerhouse?


For the record, I would like to see the cup in England in 2018, but if it lands in Netherlands I wouldnt be disappointed since the have never hosted the event.

I honestly think England has the best bid, by quite a distance.

For 2022, its Australia - If Adelaide and Perth agree to new stadiums, the bid will be a clear front runner IMO.
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Old March 20th, 2009, 06:22 AM   #4787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woozoo View Post
It is SOOOOOOOOO REFRESHING to read an englishman discussing world and English football with a clear perspective.

Even in New Zealand, the english media influenced NZers to think that England was one of the favorites in each and every tournament. Now that I live in Australia, the same sort of thing is going on but to a less degree due to the large groups of migrants from the continent that live here (Italians, Greeks).

I agree with basically all of your points bigbossman. For years Ive heard excuses for Englands failings. So many of them are riddled with holes. Keep up the good work.
England's failings???? Steady on, old chap.

Constant top 10 nation. World cup winner. Perennial quarter finalist( but for the lottery of penalty kicks...) Only two nations have a better head to head record against the England team. The most successful league in the world.

Most nations would kill for England's record at an international as well as a domestic level.

Only a matter of time, mate.
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Old March 20th, 2009, 07:35 AM   #4788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiBrit View Post
I appologise for the last post, I see what you mean.

However, I would bet almost all teams academies would be mostly English players anyway? Wenger has been in charge at Arsenal for a long time and his record of nurturing English players is pretty average to say the least. Surely you have to base it on his first teams now and in the past?
fair enough

What i mean is that the generation coming through is the first that has been totally under wenger. IE most of these kids have been their from 8-9, and have been their since wengers reforms, so have been learning the wenger way. Players before had at least a few years of the original system.

You'll probably start to see English players with technique and style of foreign players coming through at Arsenal. Jack Wilshere doesn't look like any English player i've ever seen, so composed and thoughtful on the ball, it's refreshing. And there are a couple kids like Jay emmanuel-Thomas and Emmanuel Frimpong too who look special also.

the previous players like Sidwell, bentleys and that were well into their Arsenal education and were probably deemed unsalvageable. Arsene needed to give them more time maybe, but Bentley is proving now he can't cut it when the spotlight is on him
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Old March 20th, 2009, 07:37 AM   #4789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jizzy View Post
who you backing for 2018 and 2022 then?

for me, england 2018, australia 2022.
I want it in England, but i won't sob if it went to the netherlands/belgium.

2022 i'd love it to stay in Europe, but i'd make do with Oz or maybe morocco
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Old March 20th, 2009, 07:50 AM   #4790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woozoo View Post
It is SOOOOOOOOO REFRESHING to read an englishman discussing world and English football with a clear perspective.

Even in New Zealand, the english media influenced NZers to think that England was one of the favorites in each and every tournament. Now that I live in Australia, the same sort of thing is going on but to a less degree due to the large groups of migrants from the continent that live here (Italians, Greeks).

I agree with basically all of your points bigbossman. For years Ive heard excuses for Englands failings. So many of them are riddled with holes. Keep up the good work.
Cheers

It's the most annoying thing ever, football propaganda is so powerful, especially over here, and that's the problem we believe our hype. Then croatia come and burst our bubble at wembley, PETER CROUCH FFS, give me Jan Koller anyday!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
England's failings???? Steady on, old chap.

Constant top 10 nation.
are you quoting the FIFA world rankings??


Quote:
World cup winner.

conspiracy

Quote:
Perennial quarter finalist
Ahem what, since when is that an achievement, semi's yeah, but quarters???

since the premier league began in 1992

England 1 semi
Holland 3 semi's
Italy 3 finals
France 3 finals, 1 semi
Germany 3 finals, 1 semi
Spain 1 final
Czech republic 1 final, 1 semi
Turkey 2 semis

Spot the odd one out??

Quote:
( but for the lottery of penalty kicks...)
You seen hollands record?? Lost in euro 92, euro 96, france 98, and euro 2000 on penalties. three of them semi finals.

What about Italy?? Lost the 1990 world cup semi on pens, the 1994 world cup final, Dominated france in 1998 and lost the QF on penalties. Euro 2008 to Spain?? Granted they won in Euro 2000 and The final in 2006

What about France Lost the 1982 world cup semi to germany on penalties, Euro 96 semi, They lost the 2006 world cup final on penalties.

the list goes on

The point is England have won shootouts, Spain euro 96 massive fluke, ahem. And that everyone has had bad luck penalties, many countries later down the line at more crucial times. i'd rather lose a QF on penalties than a final!

Quote:
Only two nations have a better head to head record against the England team.
*cough* Professional in the 19th century. *cough* look at the records post professionalism in each country, *cough* better yet look at the records post WW2 or 1966

Quote:
The most successful league in the world.
And the english talent is where?

Look at it this way if the best french players stayed in france, you think the prem would be better than the french league?? france was no2 league in the mid 1990s when they kept their players.

Quote:
Most nations would kill for England's record at an international as well as a domestic level.
England would kill for the records of Italy, Germany, France etc etc

We are an post-industrialised nation of 50 million people. We should be higher than we are

Quote:
Only a matter of time, mate.
What that the league is 100% non english, more likely than england winnng the 2010 world cup

Last edited by bigbossman; March 20th, 2009 at 07:59 AM.
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Old March 20th, 2009, 08:16 AM   #4791
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All good solid points(bar the conspiracy one)

No doubting that England has underachieved, BBM, but not to the point of being a failure.

As for English talent, I think that you'll find quite a few Jack Wilshire's coming through the system. It was only the late 90's that the FA introduced its, what would you call it, a treatise of excellence? Small-sided football, non competitive games for youngsters, futsal etc, etc All this combined with the huge money - due to the huge success of English football worldwide - invested in grass roots football with academies like Cobham, the NFC coming online, etc.

I'm optimistic for the future.
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Old March 20th, 2009, 12:41 PM   #4792
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England/USA 2018...
Indonesia/Australia 2022

I hope so..
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Old March 20th, 2009, 02:43 PM   #4793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jizzy View Post
why you being so anti-english? you a yank lover or something?
Who let the troll back in?
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 09:24 PM   #4794
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I don't understand why people would say that the English think they are always favourites for any tournament they are in. Its only people from abroad who seem to thinks so, English fans are some of the most pessimistic fans in the world, always whingeing and moaning about the national team. the fans don't really expect to win. The media may at times talk up the chances but even they whinge and slaughter the team at any chance they get.

Yet i would still say England is a big football nation, bigger then Holland. Performance of the national team alone doesn't determine that. I'd say even before Spain won the Euros Spain was a bigger footballing nation then Holland even tho Holland had a better record at international level. Its like saying if USA won the next world cup they would be a bigger Football nation the England which is obviously not true.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 09:37 PM   #4795
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Originally Posted by Its AlL gUUd View Post
I don't understand why people would say that the English think they are always favourites for any tournament they are in. Its only people from abroad who seem to thinks so, English fans are some of the most pessimistic fans in the world, always whingeing and moaning about the national team. the fans don't really expect to win. The media may at times talk up the chances but even they whinge and slaughter the team at any chance they get.

Do you live in the same coutry as me?? it's a nightmare during a tournament, every idiot thinks England has a genuine chance, when they really don't.

I don't see the pessimistic fans you are talking about, after the tournament, you get the "i knew it" brigade, who slaugter the team after but during every is caught up in a crazy wave created by the sun and to a lesser extent the mirror. Then we always go on about how we were unluckily dumped out. When in truth we were lucky to get to penalties (Portugal euro 2004)...

Quote:
Yet i would still say England is a big football nation, bigger then Holland. Performance of the national team alone doesn't determine that. I'd say even before Spain won the Euros Spain was a bigger footballing nation then Holland even tho Holland had a better record at international level. Its like saying if USA won the next world cup they would be a bigger Football nation the England which is obviously not true.
Dumb example, the reason why holland (the netherlands) are considered by some bigger, is because they have a far smaller population and play to a far higher standard, and produce far better players than we do. The USA has a far greater population so it's in no way comparable.
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 10:07 PM   #4796
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I like Spain/Portugal 2018 and Mexico 2022
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 12:20 AM   #4797
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
Dumb example, the reason why holland (the netherlands) are considered by some bigger, is because they have a far smaller population and play to a far higher standard, and produce far better players than we do. The USA has a far greater population so it's in no way comparable.
This is probably not the best example either bbm, I don't think you can base any theory on population. I'm going off on a tangent here but bear with me. In cricket, India have just won their first test in NZ in over 30 years and they have a population of over 1 billion people compared to NZ's 4 million. Does that mean in the eyes of some NZ are a bigger test nation then the Indians?

I consider the Dutch to be a big footballing nation simply because of the style they play and their pure technical abilities. They have their weaknessess like England (failure to qualify for finals etc.) and for various reasons would overall put them on a par with England when you consider both national and domestic levels.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 02:22 AM   #4798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
Do you live in the same coutry as me?? it's a nightmare during a tournament, every idiot thinks England has a genuine chance, when they really don't.

I don't see the pessimistic fans you are talking about, after the tournament, you get the "i knew it" brigade, who slaugter the team after but during every is caught up in a crazy wave created by the sun and to a lesser extent the mirror. Then we always go on about how we were unluckily dumped out. When in truth we were lucky to get to penalties (Portugal euro 2004)...
lol well any sane person won't read the Sun, i hate it
however when people suggest England have a genuine chance, thats not over-hyping.

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
Dumb example, the reason why holland (the netherlands) are considered by some bigger, is because they have a far smaller population and play to a far higher standard, and produce far better players than we do. The USA has a far greater population so it's in no way comparable.
as kiwibrit pointed out, using the population example is just as dumb
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 06:14 AM   #4799
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Originally Posted by Its AlL gUUd View Post
as kiwibrit pointed out, using the population example is just as dumb
As you hoped kiwibrit pointed out . Your population example was dumb, because you based it on the fact that if a country wins the world cup it makes there culture superior. I based it on the fact that if a lesser country in terms of population consistently punches harder than a superior country, there is more to it than just coincidence. As is the case with England and The netherlands

read on

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Originally Posted by KiwiBrit View Post
This is probably not the best example either bbm, I don't think you can base any theory on population. I'm going off on a tangent here but bear with me. In cricket, India have just won their first test in NZ in over 30 years and they have a population of over 1 billion people compared to NZ's 4 million. Does that mean in the eyes of some NZ are a bigger test nation then the Indians?
thats an awful argument, test series' aren't the same as world cups (they are akin to 1 game in football).

Firstly "in new zealand" winning a test away from home is notoriously more difficult than at home no matter how good your side is. Secondly tests are a series of games against one nation, i'd also like to see NZs record in India and in ODIs against New Zealand. I'd also like to see their comaprative results against all nations over the last 30 years, and also have an subjective view on the relative talent available to each country.

Quote:
I consider the Dutch to be a big footballing nation simply because of the style they play and their pure technical abilities. They have their weaknessess like England (failure to qualify for finals etc.) and for various reasons would overall put them on a par with England when you consider both national and domestic levels.
I wouldn't put them on Level par, because The netherlands consistently perform higher than England on the international level, whether the populations are the same or not. The netherlands consistently produces a better standard of footballer (in relative numbers of course), all these things can be coincidence, and luck, they don't have to be down to having a massive football culture.

However

it's clubs punch above their weight in terms of population available to them, in terms of home grown players, fanbase and finances. Thus we know there is a culture comparable to England thus we know that results on the pitch aren't coincidence and are down to them having a really powerful football culture.

All this is subjective, but his point saying that if USA won the world cup they'd be the biggest football nation, misunderstood the examples previously laid out. The point is that if a smaller nation punches harder or as hard as a bigger nation over a long period of time you have to look deeper than just coincidence (as probably with NZ cricket) and look to the cultures within the countries and realise maybe the smaller nation has a more fertile culture for that sport.

Last edited by bigbossman; March 23rd, 2009 at 06:19 AM.
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 02:58 PM   #4800
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Don't you think this is becoming too much off-topic?
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