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View Poll Results: Which bid should host the FIFA World Cup 2018 / 2022?
Australia - 2018 255 12.32%
Belgium / Netherlands - 2018 247 11.94%
England - 2018 538 26.00%
Indonesia - 2018 68 3.29%
Japan - 2018 35 1.69%
Mexico - 2018 105 5.07%
Qatar - 2018 78 3.77%
Russia - 2018 279 13.48%
South Korea - 2018 16 0.77%
Spain / Portugal - 2018 267 12.90%
USA - 2018 116 5.61%
Australia - 2022 378 18.27%
Belgium / Netherlands - 2022 111 5.36%
England - 2022 114 5.51%
Indonesia - 2022 122 5.90%
Japan - 2022 37 1.79%
Mexico - 2022 149 7.20%
Qatar - 2022 153 7.39%
Russia - 2022 148 7.15%
South Korea - 2022 23 1.11%
Spain / Portugal - 2022 184 8.89%
USA - 2022 249 12.03%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 2069. You may not vote on this poll

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Old October 4th, 2009, 05:25 AM   #5361
hngcm
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Belgium drags down the bid.

No way any of the teams there need 40k+ stadiums.
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Old October 4th, 2009, 06:03 AM   #5362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A340-500 View Post
Yeah right, comparing the inventor of Total Football with 3rd world countries, come on.......... Only difference, they never got the chance to organize a WC.

It's our turn now.
Everybody acknowledges the fact that NL is a gr8 team, but it does not mean that they need to host the Championship. Moreover why do u belittle saying III world countries, one of those won the 2016 Summer Games bid. Can u imagine Amsterdam even dreaming of the Summer bid in the real modern era, forget 1928. If Capetown, Delhi, Kualalumpur wish, they have the economic might and safe uninundated cities which are big and compact enough to host the games, There needs to be a lot of soul searching to be done for NL which serves Food Beverages with drug/without drug in a la carte.

So when u make comparisions pls be pragmatic, a FIFA WC is not presented to the one who was more attacking - stupid benchmark. Grow Up.
Don't belittle the rising might of the so called III world - FYI there is no III World techinically speaking pls google for the same.

With due respect for NL, such superflous comments by a naivette guy like you really blows of the effort put in by the whole group into a questionable state.

Last edited by antriksh_sfo; October 4th, 2009 at 06:10 AM.
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Old October 4th, 2009, 08:52 AM   #5363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A340-500 View Post
Not really, for instance, Feyenoord has proposed a new stadium because the Kuip is getting to old. Current capacity is about 50.000, the new stadium will be an 85.000 seater at least, at the banks of the Meuse, close to the city center. And they can easily fill that amount during regular competition matches, they have lots of fans.

Amsterdam Arena wants to expand too, from 52.000 to 75.000 or so. Even without a possible 2018 WC...

There is a demand for bigger stadiums, unregarded the 2018 WC. And don't forget; more capacity > more revenue for clubs. There are several other stadium developments in the Netherlands and Belgium, check the thread on this topic...
My attitude to both of these is "i'll believe it when I see it".
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Old October 4th, 2009, 11:51 AM   #5364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrLess View Post
My attitude to both of these is "i'll believe it when I see it".
Indeed.

I think it's a bit optimistic to suggest that Feyenoord would "easily fill" an 85,000 capacity stadium on a regular basis.

The current stadium has a capacity of 51,000 but Feyenoord's average attendances over the past ten years have ranged between 39,000 and 44,000. That's anything from 7-000 to 12,000 short of capacity.

Feyenoord could probably fill an 85,000 capacity ground for a few big games (Ajax, PSV) but, on the evidence of their current attendances, there would be huge swathes of empty seats for the less attractive games.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 05:09 AM   #5365
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@JimB

Feyenoord
1. The old Feyenoord stadium needs to leave a huge amount of seats empty when there is a risk of supporters that want to fight (which never happens in the stadium itself, but they want to avoid that at all costs). This lowers the average attendances on structural base.
2. Feyenoord records the number of seats that are occupied during the match. Tickets that have been sold, but where the supporter doesn't show up, is not counted.

A match in the Kuip (Feyenoord stadium) can easily be sold out while thousands of seats are empty and therefor not recorded in the average number of attendances. Ajax does count all sold tickets.

Average attendances
Based on average attendances in 2008/2009 there are only 6 football competitions worldwide that have higher attendances than the highest competition (an Eredivisie match has an average of 19827 spectators) in the Netherlands. Are we combining the top 20 Dutch and Belgium teams than, the combined average attendances would be placed 5th (with 22013 spectators) worldwide.

Plans
That more than half of the teams in the highest division in the Netherlands have serious plans to expand or building (those that haven't got the ambition to be a WC host stadium) a new stadium says a lot. Teams such as Feyenoord, Ajax, PSV, Twente and Heerenveen are making plans with the WC in mind, but they will also expand without a WC. Together virtually all teams have plans, because have waiting lists for supporters and/or facilities are old.

Popularity
Football is very popular in the Netherlands, far more than most people seem to realise. In the Netherlands only there are 1.076.759 registered players (people that are training and playing matches every week for a club), as far as I know only Germany has the same amount of registered players per capita. In absolute numbers it still beats many nations. Clubs like Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV all have each more than a million supporters in the Netherlands. When the national team plays at a WC or an EC a huge amount of streets are turning orange in the Netherlands (and of course also the streets in the host cities) and many men and women are watching the game on TV (50% - 70% of the whole population watches live images with a market share up to 85%).

The Holland Belgium bid
The bid itself based on the venues won't be the best based on the number of possible attendances for each stadium. England for example will have bigger stadiums. But the people in Belgium and the Netherlands are very motivated to host a WC. In 2000 we hosted together a succesful European Championship, for the first time 2 nations were hosting a major tournament, and the EUFA was very satisfied considering that Austria + Switzerland were allowed to host in 2008 and Poland + Ukraine in 2012. The Netherlands and Belgium are able to proof that 2 nations (as 1 organisation) are able to host a World Cup very succesful. We showed the EUFA that this can be done, and together we want to show that we can do it too for the FIFA. For many nations this can be very important, because many nations can't (at least not with white elephants) do it on their own.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 05:39 PM   #5366
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Wuppeltje - I don't doubt the popularity of football in the Netherlands. Nor do I doubt the ability of the Benelux bid team to organize a fantastic World Cup, should they be given the opportunity.

I was merely casting doubt on A340-500's assertion that Feyenoord could "easily fill" an 85,000+ capacity stadium for every Eredivisie game. Feyenoord is indeed a well supported club but even taking into account the fact that the de Kuip cannot always be filled to capacity because of crowd segregation, there is a big variance in Feyenoord's average attendances over the past 10 years.

The de Kuip capacity is 51,000 but average attendances have varied between 39,000 and 44,000. Nothing wrong with that. It's still a very healthy attendance. But clearly, a significant number of games are not sold out. And since 39,000 is an average figure, it stands to reason that some games saw crowds of significantly less than that figure.

So it would seem rather optimistic to suggest that Feyenoord would suddenly be able to fill an 85K or 90K capacity stadium for every game. It's not a claim that is supported by the available facts.
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Old October 5th, 2009, 06:23 PM   #5367
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With Rio just winning the hosting rights for 2016 Olympics and already having the 2014 World Cup. Even though the 2 tournaments are not linked, with Rios win do you think that it limits the chances of England winning the right for the 2018 World Cup so to stop the next 2 Olympics and World Cups could be staged in the same 2 countries?
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Old October 5th, 2009, 06:47 PM   #5368
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@JimB

As I told you before in case of the Kuip, the actual capacity is different from the capacity of the Kuip itself. The seamingly simple facts are misleading you. The capacity of the Kuip is 51.000, due to security reasons in combination of an old stadium seat layout 6.000 - 8.000 seats are left empty. The maximum capacity during many games is 43.000 - 45.000. If we are looking at the matches that are sold out, many of the matches are. Last season the average attendance was 44,044, which is pretty close to the absolutly maximum Feyenoord can have in the current stadium configurations and rols

Growing to 85.000 is a certain risk, but not unrealistic. Feyenoord supporters are considered as the most loyal supporters in the Netherlands and have a huge amount of supporters. I say that as supporter of Ajax (the biggest enemy). The number of supporters in general in the Netherlands is booming. 9 years ago the Eredivisie had an average attendance of 14.055, last season 19.789.
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Old October 6th, 2009, 02:11 AM   #5369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wuppeltje View Post
@JimB

As I told you before in case of the Kuip, the actual capacity is different from the capacity of the Kuip itself. The seamingly simple facts are misleading you. The capacity of the Kuip is 51.000, due to security reasons in combination of an old stadium seat layout 6.000 - 8.000 seats are left empty. The maximum capacity during many games is 43.000 - 45.000. If we are looking at the matches that are sold out, many of the matches are. Last season the average attendance was 44,044, which is pretty close to the absolutly maximum Feyenoord can have in the current stadium configurations and rols

Growing to 85.000 is a certain risk, but not unrealistic. Feyenoord supporters are considered as the most loyal supporters in the Netherlands and have a huge amount of supporters. I say that as supporter of Ajax (the biggest enemy). The number of supporters in general in the Netherlands is booming. 9 years ago the Eredivisie had an average attendance of 14.055, last season 19.789.
Wuppeltje - let me say again, that I understand perfectly well that football is currently booming in Holland. And that's great.

But the facts don't lie. Over the past ten years, Feyenoord's average crowds have varied between 39K and 44K.

Even allowing for a maximum capacity of 44K for security reasons, it still means that some seasons, up to 5,000 sellable seats remain unsold on average. And because 5,000 is only an average figure, it means that there must have been significantly more than 5,000 unsold seats for some games.

I'm perfectly well aware that Feyenoord is a well supported club. And I'm more than ready to accept that they could sell out a new 60K stadium for most Eredivisie games or an 85K stadium for a few games. But I repeat: I refuse to accept A340-500's assertion that Feyenoord could "easily fill" an 85,000+ capacity stadium for every Eredivisie game. There is simply no evidence to support such a claim.
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Old October 7th, 2009, 04:49 PM   #5370
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http://www.theage.com.au/news/sport/...701061572.html

Stadium issue can be fixed: Ellis

Dan Silkstone
October 8, 2009

ALIVE and kicking. That was the verdict on Australia's World Cup bid from Sports Minister Kate Ellis yesterday.

Despite rumblings of discontent from within the soccer community that stadium deals upon which the bid hinges have failed to materialise amid state/federal funding wrangles, the Rudd Government's minister for sport said she was confident the apparent stalemate could be broken at the Council of Australian Governments meeting in early December.

''The Federal Government and every one of the state and territory governments through COAG signed up to support this bid and to work together to make sure we have the best bid going forward that is possible,'' Ellis said. ''And that's what we're all doing.''

At that meeting Prime Minister Kevin Rudd is expected to insist on a deal with the states to finance the new stadiums and renovations needed to host the World Cup. How much - if any - of the tab the Federal Government is prepared to pick up remains a mystery.

With 12 stadiums required, each capable of holding 40,000 spectators, Australia is scrambling to find suitable venues in cities such as Perth, Adelaide, Canberra and Townsville.

Redevelopments of Subiaco and Adelaide Oval are among the likely solutions but with time running out the respective state governments are yet to commit to paying for them.

In the meantime, Australia's bid team is concentrating its lobbying efforts in Africa, with three trips scheduled to the continent in the coming three months. Football Federation Australia chief Ben Buckley will next week travel to Cairo, where FIFA delegates are gathered for the Under-20 World Cup. He will be in Nigeria next month for the Under-17 World Cup and will return to South Africa for the World Cup draw in December.

Part of the message will be about Australia's stadiums, attempting to reassure delegates that there will be no facilities problem and arguing to African delegates that a vote for Australia is a vote to further the development of the game.

If Asian and African votes can be harnessed by Australia - and it is a big if - that would leave the Australian bid with nine possible votes, given that Oceania's sole representative has already declared support. At least 13 votes are needed from the 24-member FIFA executive to win hosting rights but the multi-stage voting process means that surviving bids can pick up extra numbers as other options are eliminated.

In the lead-up to the December COAG meeting the FFA will also meet with all state premiers in coming weeks to make a last-ditch appeal for funding and to outline stadium options.

With stadium details needing to be included in a ''bid agreement'' submitted to FIFA by December 11, the Federal Government is likely to provide a guarantee to the sport's global governing body that stadium issues will be resolved.

But the issues must still be sorted out by the end of the year, to give German firm Abold - which is compiling the bid document - time to assemble a strong case.

Australia's hopes got another small nudge yesterday as FIFA powerbroker Jack Warner sharply criticised the rival English bid, saying it was not up to scratch compared with rival proposals.

There had been widespread nervousness that the US - aided by CONCACAF chief Warner - would horse trade with the English bid to share support and carve up the 2018 and 2022 events, excluding Australia.
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Old October 7th, 2009, 04:50 PM   #5371
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I don't like Australia's chances if they're thinking about including venues like the Adelaide Oval and Subiaco in their bid.
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Old November 17th, 2009, 05:07 PM   #5372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hngcm View Post
Belgium drags down the bid.

No way any of the teams there need 40k+ stadiums.
Oh I don't think that.
Teams like Anderlecht, Club Brugge and Standard (all current grounds around 30.000) need bigger grounds because they have already reached their cap. top, and have to disappoint thousand of fans not able to buy any season tickets.
Count also a new 'national' stadium in Brussel (rebuild Heyzel or next to it) and you will have already 4 stadiums with at-least +40.000 cap. urgently needed.

About the other cities (Genk-Antwerp-Charleroi-Gent) the +40.000 is very doubtfull, even 30.000 can suit in Genk and/or Antwerp, but not in Gent and Charleroi.

The Dutch/Belgian bid is already official, and these are the cities :

BELGIUM : Brussels (2?), Antwerp, Brugge, Charleroi, Gent, Genk and Luik.
HOLLAND : Eindhoven, Enschede, Heerenveen, Amsterdam (2) and Rotterdam (2)

Not sure if Brussels will have 1 or 2 new grounds.

Last edited by pazke; November 17th, 2009 at 05:13 PM.
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Old November 17th, 2009, 05:34 PM   #5373
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HOL : Enschede - De Grolsch Veste - current 24.000 > plans for 40.000 expansion and maybe the requested 44.000 for WC2018


HOL : Heerenveen - Abe Lenstra Stadion - current 26.800 > plans for 40.000 or 45.000 expansion ready for WC2018


HOL : Eindhoven - Philips Stadion - current 35.000 > plans for 42.000 expansion or build a new one depending on the WC2018 bid


HOL : Amsterdam - Arena - current 51.628 > plans for 55.000 expansion by closing the corner gaps or 2 new stands behind the goal will give 65.000
http://i44.************/14e8dj8.jpg
or go for a third tier and 85.000 seats for WC2018


HOL : Amsterdam - ?new? - 90.000 cap? between A'dam and Almere

HOL : Rotterdam - De 'new' Kuip - 80.000 cap still to build


HOL : Rotterdam - De 'old' Kuip - 51.577 cap. will undergo a face-lift
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Old November 18th, 2009, 11:20 PM   #5374
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For Amsterdam the 2nd stadium that is proposed is a temperory expanded olympic stadium. Between 44.000 - 47.000.
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Old November 19th, 2009, 07:17 AM   #5375
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Considering 2018 WC will go to Europe, It will have a competition between the US and Australia for 2022 WC.
Now Jack Warner is endorsing Australia, some crucial votes would go to Australia such as CAF and CONMEBOL members. Further more Bekhenbauer supports Australia. That is going to be bad for the US bid. It remains more than one year before the final decision, so everithing is possible.

http://www.worldfootballinsider.com/Story.aspx?id=32707

Australia can be considered as a new frontier to host a WC. The competition could be aggressive.
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Old November 19th, 2009, 05:42 PM   #5376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pazke View Post

HOL : Amsterdam - Arena - current 51.628...

or go for a third tier and 85.000 seats for WC2018

Do you have any idea of how difficult this would be!? It'd be hard enough in a lego stadium let alone the real thing! Unless a stadium is built in such a way that new stands can be added, it is extremely difficult, not to mention expensive, to extend stand sizes
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Old November 19th, 2009, 08:39 PM   #5377
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Difficult and expensive but possible. They won't make a full third tier though, because they think it will be too much for Ajax. For Ajax they are thinking about +/- 65.000 at the moment.
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Old November 20th, 2009, 10:03 PM   #5378
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There are detailed plans for a third tier of the Amsterdam ArenA.
Estimated costs: 250 milion Euro.
Developer: Arcadis

This was announced during the official presentation of the WC 2018 candidacy cities in Eindhoven november 9th.

Realistic? No. But still possible

Last edited by hugenholz; November 20th, 2009 at 10:12 PM.
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Old November 28th, 2009, 11:46 PM   #5379
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My prediction:

1. The 2018 bid will go to Europe - Russia.

2. The 2022 bid will go to Australia.

Last edited by Big Cat; November 29th, 2009 at 12:33 AM.
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Old November 29th, 2009, 12:02 AM   #5380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Cat View Post
My prediction:

1. The 2018 bid will go to Europe: England or Russia.

2. The 2022 bid will go to Australia or Indonesia.
Indonesia??

first time I've heard that one
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