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View Poll Results: Which bid should host the FIFA World Cup 2018 / 2022?
Australia - 2018 255 12.32%
Belgium / Netherlands - 2018 247 11.94%
England - 2018 538 26.00%
Indonesia - 2018 68 3.29%
Japan - 2018 35 1.69%
Mexico - 2018 105 5.07%
Qatar - 2018 78 3.77%
Russia - 2018 279 13.48%
South Korea - 2018 16 0.77%
Spain / Portugal - 2018 267 12.90%
USA - 2018 116 5.61%
Australia - 2022 378 18.27%
Belgium / Netherlands - 2022 111 5.36%
England - 2022 114 5.51%
Indonesia - 2022 122 5.90%
Japan - 2022 37 1.79%
Mexico - 2022 149 7.20%
Qatar - 2022 153 7.39%
Russia - 2022 148 7.15%
South Korea - 2022 23 1.11%
Spain / Portugal - 2022 184 8.89%
USA - 2022 249 12.03%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 2069. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 18th, 2009, 12:56 PM   #5441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
how is expanding into new markets beneficial for the game? Espeically when those new markets just pump more unecessary money into the game that further distorts it (I'm looking at you ASIA). Football would be fine and make loads of money with just Europe, South america and africa tbf.

If the expansion lead to people watching their own f*cking league and pumping money and support into their own game then fair enough, but football can do without Barry Barstool in Bangkok thankyou very much!
What about Barry Barstool in Lagos?
Its not like the football fans of much of Sub Saharan Africa flock to watch their domestic league teams play. Most do however own an EPL team top and post on EPL blogs...

How does an African fan have more right to support a foreign league team than an Asian one?
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Old December 18th, 2009, 01:16 PM   #5442
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Originally Posted by woozoo View Post
What about Barry Barstool in Lagos?
Its not like the football fans of much of Sub Saharan Africa flock to watch their domestic league teams play. Most do however own an EPL team top and post on EPL blogs...

How does an African fan have more right to support a foreign league team than an Asian one?
They don't, but Africa hasn't had a World Cup yet, which considering African players are amongst the best in the world (Drogba, Essien etc.) needed to happen sometime. People may not be flocking to their local team, but the quality of footballer produced from these countries is improving all the time. FIFA can't ignore a continent that, for the first time, has a realistic chance of providing a semi-finalist or finalist in the next few tournaments. African football is in a transition, in a few years it's teams could be up there with the big boys, which is what makes it different from Asia. Yes South Korea reached the semi-finals, but mainly down to some incredibly poor refereeing in their games against Spain and Italy.

I don't think anyone is saying that Asian nations should never get the World Cup, but that the idea of expanding into new markets shouldn't be the primary concern for the tournaments location.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 02:29 PM   #5443
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Originally Posted by hngcm View Post
Expand and get more people interested in football and make more money.

Simple.
You've obviously never seen my posts on this forum.

More money means more problems... or at least the way football is set up in 2009.

Quote:
Originally Posted by woozoo View Post
What about Barry Barstool in Lagos?
Its not like the football fans of much of Sub Saharan Africa flock to watch their domestic league teams play. Most do however own an EPL team top and post on EPL blogs...

How does an African fan have more right to support a foreign league team than an Asian one?
Him too, Barry Barstool was just a euphamism for all non-domestic fans!


Quote:
Originally Posted by SSE View Post
They don't, but Africa hasn't had a World Cup yet, which considering African players are amongst the best in the world (Drogba, Essien etc.) needed to happen sometime. People may not be flocking to their local team, but the quality of footballer produced from these countries is improving all the time. FIFA can't ignore a continent that, for the first time, has a realistic chance of providing a semi-finalist or finalist in the next few tournaments. African football is in a transition, in a few years it's teams could be up there with the big boys, which is what makes it different from Asia. Yes South Korea reached the semi-finals, but mainly down to some incredibly poor refereeing in their games against Spain and Italy.
Well Drogba is French but I take your point.

Quote:
I don't think anyone is saying that Asian nations should never get the World Cup, but that the idea of expanding into new markets shouldn't be the primary concern for the tournaments location.
The problem of course is FIFA is a democracy and Sepp Blatter promises the world to CAF and AFC so he can get a healthy block vote to keep him as president. If FIFA didn't have to pander to these confederations the tournament would never leave europe until one of these countries could actually prove they could host it. A las that's not the case! Bloody politics!
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Old December 18th, 2009, 05:41 PM   #5444
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Official? Three stadiums in London and two in Manchester when we know that only one city can have two? Is this serious?

EDIT: Well... There's 15, so I guess one from London, another one from Manchester and a third one should be left out.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 06:54 PM   #5445
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how is expanding into new markets beneficial for the game? Espeically when those new markets just pump more unecessary money into the game that further distorts it (I'm looking at you ASIA). Football would be fine and make loads of money with just Europe, South america and africa tbf.

If the expansion lead to people watching their own f*cking league and pumping money and support into their own game then fair enough, but football can do without Barry Barstool in Bangkok thankyou very much!
This statement is full of prejudice. European teams, for some decades, have been hiring best South American players and pricing them completely out of their local markets. It is fine, there is no reason for which players like Kaka or Messi should be earning less (way far less) to play in Brazilian or Argentinean teams.

FYI, more than 400 Brazilian (I don't have statistics on Argentina for that matter) football players leave the country each year, with an avarage age (2006) of 20 years and 2 months, to play in Milan, Barcelona, Liverpool... and a lot of blowing-cash teams in Kazakisthan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Russia, Japan, Ukraine etc. It is normal, those players are just looking for better salaries - a fair reason to go abroad -.

I see no problem in, say, Chinese setting up a powerful league and hiring football players around the World to play there if they want. What is the problem - making sencon-tier European teams less "starred". So be it
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Old December 18th, 2009, 06:55 PM   #5446
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Well Drogba is French but I take your point.
No he isn't. He was sent to France at five, he hated it, and went back to Abidjan. he only returned to France again when his parents lost their jobs and sent him to live with his uncle. He suffered from depression as a teenager because he wanted to live in Africa.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 07:21 PM   #5447
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This is slightly irrelevant to the thread but here goes!

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Originally Posted by andrelot View Post
This statement is full of prejudice. European teams, for some decades, have been hiring best South American players and pricing them completely out of their local markets.
For decades? More like since the 90s. The italian league banned foreigners for ost of the 1970s!

But you think I think that's a good thing?

Quote:
It is fine, there is no reason for which players like Kaka or Messi should be earning less (way far less) to play in Brazilian or Argentinean teams.
That's life though... do you think the best teachers etc should only go where they can earn the most? I don't...

Whilst football is not as important as teaching it plays an important community role, and as such should not be treated as just any job.

Call me an idealist, but I don't like the imperialistic nature of modern football.

Quote:
FYI, more than 400 Brazilian (I don't have statistics on Argentina for that matter) football players leave the country each year, with an avarage age (2006) of 20 years and 2 months, to play in Milan, Barcelona, Liverpool... and a lot of blowing-cash teams in Kazakisthan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Russia, Japan, Ukraine etc. It is normal, those players are just looking for better salaries - a fair reason to go abroad -.
Says you

Fans come first in sport not the players, without the fans there would be no professional sport. Brazilian fans shouldn't have to suffer because their country cannot pay the same wages as Kazahkstan. They earn a comfortable wage in Brazil anyway!

Although with the right backing a brazilian league could be wealthy, it would certainly have star power to command a big TV contract.

Quote:
I see no problem in, say, Chinese setting up a powerful league and hiring football players around the World to play there if they want. What is the problem - making sencon-tier European teams less "starred". So be it
Because that isn't football. Football isn't about all star dream teams, it's about community and belonging. Your mentality is the mentality which will ruin what I and many others feel is the beauty of sport in Europe!

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Originally Posted by Bobby3 View Post
No he isn't. He was sent to France at five, he hated it, and went back to Abidjan. he only returned to France again when his parents lost their jobs and sent him to live with his uncle. He suffered from depression as a teenager because he wanted to live in Africa.
Question how do you know all this stuff about Drogba is true, i'm talking about his "depression" (most of what you said is on his wiki page). This is Didier Drogba a professional drama queen. Players say all sorts of things to get sympathy.

Anyway, he spent just 3 of his school aged years outside of France (8-10). He speaks with a French accent, no doubt has a french mentality and owes a lot of what he has and where he is today to France. So I'd say he was French, and would no doubt have played for their national team if he had showed early promise.

Nationality is complex I know... but I would never turn my back on the country that took me in and gave me a life!

I suppose this debate is slightly relevant as it brings up the delicate situation of imperialism (globalisation to some) in football and the fact the FIFA is doing the same thing by giving it's world cup to non deserving countries.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 08:13 PM   #5448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
how is expanding into new markets beneficial for the game? Espeically when those new markets just pump more unecessary money into the game that further distorts it (I'm looking at you ASIA). Football would be fine and make loads of money with just Europe, South america and africa tbf.

If the expansion lead to people watching their own f*cking league and pumping money and support into their own game then fair enough, but football can do without Barry Barstool in Bangkok thankyou very much!
Sounds what's like happening in the states and australia.




Anyhoo, I appreciate your points. But it's not called the world cup for nothing.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 09:16 PM   #5449
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Yes but, like with the Olympics, the "we haven't had it yet" argument isn't enough on its own.

As it happens (you know I support England 2018), I think Australia would be a great choice for 2022 if they can get their stadiums together. But that's not because they haven't had it before (at least not completely, there is some merit in that argument) but because they are a proven quantity when it comes to hosting global sporting events.
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Old December 19th, 2009, 09:46 AM   #5450
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Originally Posted by SSE View Post
They don't, but Africa hasn't had a World Cup yet, which considering African players are amongst the best in the world (Drogba, Essien etc.) needed to happen sometime. People may not be flocking to their local team, but the quality of footballer produced from these countries is improving all the time. FIFA can't ignore a continent that, for the first time, has a realistic chance of providing a semi-finalist or finalist in the next few tournaments. African football is in a transition, in a few years it's teams could be up there with the big boys, which is what makes it different from Asia. Yes South Korea reached the semi-finals, but mainly down to some incredibly poor refereeing in their games against Spain and Italy.

I don't think anyone is saying that Asian nations should never get the World Cup, but that the idea of expanding into new markets shouldn't be the primary concern for the tournaments location.
I wasn't questioning Africa's right to host a world cup, I certainly think its high time the continent won the right to host (infrastructure and logisitical problems is what has prevented the tournament taking place there any earlier).

I was questioning bigbossmans antagonism towards Asian football fans who support English teams, and lack of antagonism towards African football fans who support Enlgish teams.
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Old December 19th, 2009, 10:23 AM   #5451
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Him too, Barry Barstool was just a euphamism for all non-domestic fans!
No shit.

Ive read several comments from you regarding your feelings about Asian fans, but none regarding African ones.
Ironically, Asian leagues get are generally better attended than African ones.


I agree with much of your sentiment, but its just far too idealist to actually expect all of it actualy become reality. Its kinda like trying to stop globalisation... People naturally will be drawn to what they know is superior. When leagues in Europe attract the best players from around the world and produce the most attractive football, its only natural for fans to be drawn to that.
Do all Penarol fans live in that neighbourhood?
40% of Argentines supprt River Plate, what percentage of them live in La Boca or even Buenos Aires?
A sicilian is most likely to support both Palermo and either one of Juventus, AC or Inter. Similar situation occurs in Portugal and many parts of Europe. Fans supporting clubs from other nations is the same thing just on a different scale.


Out of curiosity, how close do you live to Islington? Is there a team in lets say league 1 thats closer to you that you could support?
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Old December 19th, 2009, 11:33 AM   #5452
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Originally Posted by RobH View Post
Yes but, like with the Olympics, the "we haven't had it yet" argument isn't enough on its own.

As it happens (you know I support England 2018), I think Australia would be a great choice for 2022 if they can get their stadiums together. But that's not because they haven't had it before (at least not completely, there is some merit in that argument) but because they are a proven quantity when it comes to hosting global sporting events.
Well in that, case......."the US just had it in 1994" isn't enough to disqualify it either. Because the US is just as competent when it comes to throwing large sporting events. Just on that alone, the US, Australia and England are by far the front runners. Although, honestly.....as a supporter of the USNT, I wouldn't ming waiting for 2026 or 2030. When the team is stronger and we have an actual chance of making the final.
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Old December 19th, 2009, 12:17 PM   #5453
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No, it's not good enough reason to disqualify it, but it is a factor in the same way the "we haven't had it argument" is.
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Old December 19th, 2009, 06:25 PM   #5454
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Originally Posted by woozoo View Post
No shit.
well why did you get all ancy because I only "picked" on asians"2 then!

Quote:
Ive read several comments from you regarding your feelings about Asian fans, but none regarding African ones.
Yeah because Asian fans (ones from the South East particular) contribute more unnecessary money into the English game than African fans, doy!

Quote:
Ironically, Asian leagues get are generally better attended than African ones.
generally better attended have you got evidence to back that up? Thought not...

Quote:
I agree with much of your sentiment, but its just far too idealist to actually expect all of it actualy become reality. Its kinda like trying to stop globalisation...
This isn't globalisation though is it, or not positive globalisation. It's sporting imperialism, Europe stealing the wealth and resources (football players) of the rest of the world, like the 19th century?

You can argue that the rest of the world get to watch the best players on television in return, but I hope that you know that Football (like most sports) is best witnessed in the flesh thus you are giving people something inferior for their money and secondly football isn't about dream teams as it creates something ugly, elitest and pompous.

You can call me an idealist but there are a lot of us!

Quote:
People naturally will be drawn to what they know is superior. When leagues in Europe attract the best players from around the world and produce the most attractive football, its only natural for fans to be drawn to that.
Not really... it's only natural for insecure people to be drawn to that, hence why Manchester United have so many fans!

I support Arsenal because everyone (well the majority) in my class did (aged 7), including my teacher who used to rock up to school in a big Arsenal jacket!

Quote:
Do all Penarol fans live in that neighbourhood?
40% of Argentines supprt River Plate, what percentage of them live in La Boca or even Buenos Aires?


What are you talking about, are you deliberately being dumb to prove a point?

Firstly River Plate don't play in La Boca, that would be Boca Juniors, they moved out some time ago and now play in Belgrano!

Secondly, i'm unaware that Argentina was a different country to buenos Aires... and that Penoral was an indepent republic enclave surrounded entirely by the city of Montevideo... thanks for clearing that up..

Anyway let me give you a little story, before the war Cambridge had two teams Cambridge Town and Abbey united, in 1951 the queen bestowed city status on the Town of Cambridge and both clubs applied to the FA to change their name to Cambridge city. Because Cambridge Town's application was received first they won the right, however Abbey united became Cambridge united and within 20 years were in the football league and had over taken their rivals...

Now you may be wondering what is the relevance of this story. Abbey United may have played in the abbey district of Cambridge but they didn't consider themselves the club of Abbey but a club representing Cambridge, just like River Plate do for Buenos Aires and Penarol do for Montevideo they just didn't feel the need to change their names to prove it

Quote:
A sicilian is most likely to support both Palermo and either one of Juventus, AC or Inter.Similar situation occurs in Portugal and many parts of Europe. Fans supporting clubs from other nations is the same thing just on a different scale.
Not either one, very much more likely to be Juventus... then again another weak point

See you're getting worse now, you're trying make as if Southern Italy and say South East Asia or Austalia are one in the same in relation to Turin or Milan. But I think you know that's laughable.

If you live in Sicily you've grown up in Italy, with the Italian media, the Italian league and the wider Italian culture. If you grow up in Australia you grew up with the Aussie media, the aussie league and the wider Australian culture which gives you an outside view of the Italian media, the Italian league and the wider Italian Culture. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

Quote:
Out of curiosity, how close do you live to Islington? Is there a team in lets say league 1 thats closer to you that you could support?
You're are unbelievable, you think because you've written a whole bullshit trying to prove how Bangkok is "the same" as Manchester that now you can prove that because I'm from South East London that i'm somehow the same as Barry Barstool... unfortunately for you WRONG.

anyway I went through this with your River Plate/Penarol argument

Arsenal are a London club not a Islington club or a North London club, they play in the London Borough of Islington in the inner North of the city but represent London, nationally and Internationally. In fact the reason why they chose to move to Higbury in the first place is so they could be more accesible to more people by public transport (Gillespie Road underground station was right outside the ground), which they weren't in Plumstead (ironically where I grew up).

Aston Villa play in North Birmingham, does it mean people in South Birmingham should support Birmingham City only, of course it ******* doesn't. Everton don't bare the name Liverpool does it mean if you don't live close to the Everton district you should support Liverpool FC... NOT AT ALL

Maybe you'd feel better if London was like Moscow and we had London Gunners, London Hotspur, London Park Rangers, London United, London Palace etc, a club doesn't have to take the name of that city to represent that city.

To conclude, you Woozoo seem to think that if you don't support a club geographically closest to you then that puts you in the same boat as everyone no matter how far. There is no difference between a United fan in Bangkok and one in London, well yes there is. As morally deplorable as Cockney Reds are at least they have sort of cultural connection to Manchester and Manchester United and that is all I ask.

This is an ideological debate, it's not gonna happen and it's not gonna change anything but it's a debate about what is morally right!
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Old December 19th, 2009, 08:16 PM   #5455
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I was questioning bigbossmans antagonism towards Asian football fans who support English teams, and lack of antagonism towards African football fans who support Enlgish teams.

Ive read several comments from you regarding your feelings about Asian fans, but none regarding African ones.
Ironically, Asian leagues get are generally better attended than African ones.
Ah come on! You're not comparing like with like and you have to factor in the important non-footballing issues before making statement's like that.

Asia is a vastly wealthier continent than Africa. If you are just talking about the Eastern countries (which appears to be the case) this is even more apparent. There is no Japan or South Korea in Africa. GDP per capita in nations such as Nigeria, Ghana and the Ivory Coast is about $2600, $1200 and $1500 respectively. About a fifth of African countries have a GDP per capita of less than a $1000. Compare this to Singapore ($50,000), Malaysia ($13,400) and Thailand ($8,000). I chose these countries because I believe they are all places where football is passionately followed (apologies if that is not the case!)

But this doesn't really tell the whole picture. South Africa is Sub-Saharan Africa's most developed country (using a wide measurement of development). It is on the same level as somewhere like Brazil in terms of economic and social development. However, wealth is concentrated in the hands of the relatively few which skews its statistics. The reason why the most popular sport (football) gets less crowds than Rugby (by and large) is because football is followed by the masses who are mainly poor. How can you expect people who live in Townships to go and regularly watch live games? Itís not just money in many cases people don't have the time! It is not a surprise that the best supported leagues in Asia belong to Japan, China, South Korea and Australia; the wealthiest and most developed nations in the region (although Argentina, Mexico and Egypt [Africa!] all boast higher figures). Similarly, Egypt and South Africa are the only nations that I can find which have decent average attendances for their football leagues, again countries which are at the higher end of their regionís development table.

As such it is silly to expect (most) African leagues to be on the same level as (most) East Asian leagues. The latter should look at Latin American countries that are on a similarly level of development. Despite having their best players taken from their countries at a young age, the Brazilian, Argentine and Mexican leagues boost respectable average attendances for their leagues. No Asian country on a similar socio-economic development level compares.
When Liverpool played the Thai national team in a friendly last summer in Thailand, I read that more people in the stadium were supporting Liverpool than their own national team! There was even an end that was meant to resemble the Kop. If this is actually true it tells me that something is wrong with the game in some parts of Asia. I donít think you would ever get that anywhere in Africa.
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Old December 19th, 2009, 08:24 PM   #5456
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Regarding the World Cup, I have no problem with using it to spread the game, so-to-speak, but football has to be at least pretty popular in said nation and there has to be a league which is decently attended. With this in mind I would have no problems with Australia being given the WC: it boasts a growing league and football is relativity popular, plus Aussies are sport mad. However, what happened in the US where no league existed at the time of rewarding the competition and the hope was to just plant a seed and hope it grows, is/was just plan wrong and kind of distasteful.

The World Cup shouldn't be used just to expand into 'markets'; it should be used to help those nation's which already have a functioning league and passionate support move to the next level (like what will hopefully happen in South Africa).
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Old December 19th, 2009, 08:59 PM   #5457
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Originally Posted by kerouac1848 View Post
Regarding the World Cup, I have no problem with using it to spread the game, so-to-speak, but football has to be at least pretty popular in said nation and there has to be a league which is decently attended. With this in mind I would have no problems with Australia being given the WC: it boasts a growing league and football is relativity popular, plus Aussies are sport mad. However, what happened in the US where no league existed at the time of rewarding the competition and the hope was to just plant a seed and hope it grows, is/was just plan wrong and kind of distasteful.
Yeah, but it worked.....didn't it? MLS is still a work in progress, but at least it's a league, mediocre or not.
Which is why I'm sure FIFA will try the same thing in China sooner or later.

Oh and Kerouac......Mexico doesn't really lose many of it's players (unlike the brazilian and argentine leagues)and actually imports a lot of talent. Which further proves your point, actually. Since it's one of the wealthiest/stable countries in Latin America. But they actually buy more than they sell.
It's different in Latin America, the game developed in a vacuum for most of the 20th century and therefore deeper roots. They didn't have to deal with the whole colonial BS. Even 50 years ago, european teams were snatching up the best African talent. Like Eusebio and claiming him as one of their own.
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Old December 19th, 2009, 09:20 PM   #5458
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two things

I swear the Mexican league is only so wealthy because of the TV deals that FMF can do with spanish language television in the USA. So basically the mexican league TV market is Mexico and Mexican Americans!

Secondly Portugal when Eusebio played for them included Mozambique (where eusebio was from). The Mozambique football association wasn't founded until 1976 (a year after indepenence) therefore no national team, thus who was Eusebio to play for?
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Old December 19th, 2009, 09:21 PM   #5459
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Oh and on the carrot, FIFA gave it to you because all they see is Dollar signs when they think of the USA. It was wrong there were far more deserving nations!
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Old December 19th, 2009, 09:55 PM   #5460
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Yeah, but it worked.....didn't it? MLS is still a work in progress, but at least it's a league, mediocre or not.
Which is why I'm sure FIFA will try the same thing in China sooner or later.

Oh and Kerouac......Mexico doesn't really lose many of it's players (unlike the brazilian and argentine leagues)and actually imports a lot of talent. Which further proves your point, actually. Since it's one of the wealthiest/stable countries in Latin America. But they actually buy more than they sell.
It's different in Latin America, the game developed in a vacuum for most of the 20th century and therefore deeper roots. They didn't have to deal with the whole colonial BS. Even 50 years ago, european teams were snatching up the best African talent. Like Eusebio and claiming him as one of their own.
I didn't argue that it didn't work and I didn't say anything about the MLS. My point was that I don't think it is something FIFA should use the WC for. Australia has developed a league which is growing and becoming self-sustainable. This despite not having had an advantage of staging a WC and being in a country of just over 20 million with 4 major team sports already (Rules, Union, League and Cricket). Countries like this should be encouraged to have the WC so football can move to the next level. Nation's shouldn't get the WC so it acts as a kind of 'big bang' process (and because FIFA seeís wads of cash). The WC is only every 4 years and if you give it to countries that don't have a decent football culture you're essentially smacking the face of those that do and want to hosts the thing.

Regarding Mexico, I don't see your point. Whilst I know that they don't lose as many players as in Argentina or Brazil, many of their best players play in Europe. They're even losing good kids like Dos Santos and Vela now. The difference is that Mexico doesn't produce anything like the number of high quality footballers as Brazil or Argentina so the net effect is less.

Also, I wasn't comparing Africa with Latina America; I was comparing it with Asia and highlighting reasons why comparing league strengths is silly when you consider the situation of Africa vis-a-vis Asia. In fact, Imperialism and colonisation further adds to that point (i didn't want to turn my post into a massive essay!). Ditto issues such as civil war and conflict amongst much of the region. It's not really surprising that West and North Africa have been much stronger than East Africa over the past 2 decades when you consider the greater problems that that section of the continent has had to deal with relative to the others.
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