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View Poll Results: Which bid should host the FIFA World Cup 2018 / 2022?
Australia - 2018 255 12.32%
Belgium / Netherlands - 2018 247 11.94%
England - 2018 538 26.00%
Indonesia - 2018 68 3.29%
Japan - 2018 35 1.69%
Mexico - 2018 105 5.07%
Qatar - 2018 78 3.77%
Russia - 2018 279 13.48%
South Korea - 2018 16 0.77%
Spain / Portugal - 2018 267 12.90%
USA - 2018 116 5.61%
Australia - 2022 378 18.27%
Belgium / Netherlands - 2022 111 5.36%
England - 2022 114 5.51%
Indonesia - 2022 122 5.90%
Japan - 2022 37 1.79%
Mexico - 2022 149 7.20%
Qatar - 2022 153 7.39%
Russia - 2022 148 7.15%
South Korea - 2022 23 1.11%
Spain / Portugal - 2022 184 8.89%
USA - 2022 249 12.03%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 2069. You may not vote on this poll

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Old October 12th, 2006, 11:16 AM   #1221
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Telstra Dome is nothing like Stadium Australia. It was never built out of the need of a one off event, it was built out of the need of a city.
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Old October 12th, 2006, 02:47 PM   #1222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eureka! View Post
Oh and Melbourne????
Your point? Melbourne could easily host it most likely using the MCG which has a higher capacity than any other Oz stadium or any of the German stadiums used. It's a oval but it is possible for either modificatios or to keep it how it is. We've used it for a practise match verse Greece. Why not the world cup.

And why will Telstra Dome be a white elephant??? It's used every week for AFL plus numerous concerts and events. Plus a bit of soccer and rugby. What are you talking about???
Dude, it was not a stab at Melbourne or the MCG, i forgot about the Telstra Dome and wrote that in at the end of my comment. MCG is not suitable for football, sorry thats the truth. It's a round field, not oval either. It is however, a great stadium.
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Old October 12th, 2006, 02:48 PM   #1223
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Actually were they not just moved in recently for a game or two?
No the didn't move them in after all.
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Old October 12th, 2006, 11:43 PM   #1224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weebie View Post
By the time 2018 and 2022 come along Telstra Dome, Suncorp and Stadium Australia will be old White elephants.
Most english stadiums are 100 years old
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Old October 13th, 2006, 12:35 AM   #1225
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Most english stadiums are 100 years old
you say that like it's a bad thing - historic purpose built football venues, modern purpose built football stadia - beat that, skippy!
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Old October 13th, 2006, 09:18 AM   #1226
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you say that like it's a bad thing - historic purpose built football venues, modern purpose built football stadia - beat that, skippy!
I don't think he was trying to say that as a bad thing mate. There is nothing wrong with older venues, as long as they're up to scratch!
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Old October 13th, 2006, 11:25 PM   #1227
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Ummm, you do realise that the Berlin Olympiastadion in the 2006 WC was from the 1936 Berlin Olympics? Sheesh, how long do you think stadiums last for? 5 minutes?

Yes, but they currently don't use the feature.
well, they are actually are about to use this feature for the first time since 2001, so if need be telstra dome is able to convert into football mode.
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Old October 14th, 2006, 03:25 AM   #1228
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I don't think he was trying to say that as a bad thing mate. There is nothing wrong with older venues, as long as they're up to scratch!
You're right. I like stadiums that have some heritage as long as they are up to scratch as far as facilities go.
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Old October 14th, 2006, 04:34 AM   #1229
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I think it would be arrogant to dismiss the chance of Australia hosting a World Cup. If it doesn't happen in 2018, then it will happen in 2022. If not in 2022, then 2026. If not 2026, then 2030. Either way, I'm certain (and pretty optimistic) that Australia will host the World Cup in the future and do a great job of it!

If South Africa can host it in 2010, then who's to say Australia can't? I don't seem to recall South Africa having a giant football culture either, but I'm sure they have one! And the USA has hosted one before in the past also and I'd say football culture lacks even more there, but I guess that decision was made because of economic reasons. (Big population, money, etc).

In Australia, the football culture is growing (due to the World Cup, the A-League, and so on) and it's in the top 3 sports played by young boys in this country. (Along with Cricket, and I think Basketball?). This week I walked past a park near my house and they were playing, (surprise surprise), football (soccer)! So it's fairly present in this country!

If Australia put up a bid, I think they'd be constructing more stadiums as a result, and I'm sure there'd be a lot of excitement here anyway. So I don't think that is our main obstacle, but I do think (as someone else pointed out), the obstacle is probably more from other more influential countries. Internally, the problems here can be mended, but externally, it's completely out of our hands.
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Old October 14th, 2006, 04:42 AM   #1230
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The point, lostboy, was that Australian history goes further back than colonisation. Yes, literacy and the English language came with colonisation but to dismiss tens of thousand of years of aboriginal civilisation, their thousands of dialects, their traditions and ability to live in this hostile land because there was no literacy is a tad arrogant. In fact its the kind of arrogance towards indigenous Australians that led to their dispicable treatment at the hands of the colonisers. The ideals of nationhood, institutions and government are western concepts, to argue that Australian history does not pre-date colonialisation because of a lack of these concepts is pure arrogance.

I have lived for many years in Europe and I love Paris, Prague, Amsterdam etc. But for you to say that Australia is bland clearly demonstrates that you have never been here. Australia is consistantly voted as a favoured destination for immigrants and tourists alike. It has an amazing diversity of cultures and, while its not perfect, it has clean, safe cities.

Are you just pissed that the Ashes will soon be won back by Australia? (Thats just friendly banter by the way, not anti-English sentiment)
Very nicely stated and I agree with everything you've said! I think it's fairly ignorant to have a "These people are superior, and these people are inferior" sort of stance on things, so his comments should be taken lightly.
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Old October 14th, 2006, 04:49 AM   #1231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valeroso View Post
I think it would be arrogant to dismiss the chance of Australia hosting a World Cup. If it doesn't happen in 2018, then it will happen in 2022. If not in 2022, then 2026. If not 2026, then 2030. Either way, I'm certain (and pretty optimistic) that Australia will host the World Cup in the future and do a great job of it!

If South Africa can host it in 2010, then who's to say Australia can't? I don't seem to recall South Africa having a giant football culture either, but I'm sure they have one! And the USA has hosted one before in the past also and I'd say football culture lacks even more there, but I guess that decision was made because of economic reasons. (Big population, money, etc).

In Australia, the football culture is growing (due to the World Cup, the A-League, and so on) and it's in the top 3 sports played by young boys in this country. (Along with Cricket, and I think Basketball?). This week I walked past a park near my house and they were playing, (surprise surprise), football (soccer)! So it's fairly present in this country!

If Australia put up a bid, I think they'd be constructing more stadiums as a result, and I'm sure there'd be a lot of excitement here anyway. So I don't think that is our main obstacle, but I do think (as someone else pointed out), the obstacle is probably more from other more influential countries. Internally, the problems here can be mended, but externally, it's completely out of our hands.
you make a good point. I look across the road and i see a football match go on. Many teams in the a-league are getting 25000+ attendances, and with some more big-names like Romario and many World Cup players coming to Australia, things look good for the sport here. 2018 is 13 years away, so attendances in the a-league could well reach 50000 consistently by then, which would be awesome. If this happens than Australia would have no problems permanently expanding their stadiums.
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Old October 14th, 2006, 05:20 AM   #1232
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The topic should have read:

"In what year will Australia host the World Cup?" For that is a given!
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Old October 15th, 2006, 01:08 AM   #1233
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you are right BobDaBuilder
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Old October 15th, 2006, 05:50 AM   #1234
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Originally Posted by Valeroso View Post
I think it would be arrogant to dismiss the chance of Australia hosting a World Cup. If it doesn't happen in 2018, then it will happen in 2022. If not in 2022, then 2026. If not 2026, then 2030. Either way, I'm certain (and pretty optimistic) that Australia will host the World Cup in the future and do a great job of it!

If South Africa can host it in 2010, then who's to say Australia can't? I don't seem to recall South Africa having a giant football culture either, but I'm sure they have one! And the USA has hosted one before in the past also and I'd say football culture lacks even more there, but I guess that decision was made because of economic reasons. (Big population, money, etc).

In Australia, the football culture is growing (due to the World Cup, the A-League, and so on) and it's in the top 3 sports played by young boys in this country. (Along with Cricket, and I think Basketball?). This week I walked past a park near my house and they were playing, (surprise surprise), football (soccer)! So it's fairly present in this country!

If Australia put up a bid, I think they'd be constructing more stadiums as a result, and I'm sure there'd be a lot of excitement here anyway. So I don't think that is our main obstacle, but I do think (as someone else pointed out), the obstacle is probably more from other more influential countries. Internally, the problems here can be mended, but externally, it's completely out of our hands.
football is south africa's most popular sport although it doesnt always appear to be so in terms of crown numbers
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Old October 15th, 2006, 11:34 AM   #1235
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it's in the top 3 sports played by young boys in this country. (Along with Cricket, and I think Basketball?).
Actually is number one with almost double the players compared to Aussie Rules.
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Old October 15th, 2006, 02:30 PM   #1236
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The point, lostboy, was that Australian history goes further back than colonisation.

History by its very definition is recorded and therefore requires a literate society.

Yes, literacy and the English language came with colonisation but to dismiss tens of thousand of years of aboriginal civilisation, their thousands of dialects, their traditions and ability to live in this hostile land because there was no literacy is a tad arrogant.

I have nothing but pure respect for the Aboriginal People, and dismay at the way they hjave been handled by white people throughout the contact period. If everyone lived like Aborigines we would not be in the environmental mess that we are currently in, thanks to our greed. A pity that both New World nations of Australia and America have ignored the Kyoto agreement, which itself was far below the minimum of what we need to do to divert global climate change.

That said, Aboriginal People of Australia did not have a civilisation (there were no urban areas) despite whatever rich cultural traditions they may have had. We simply don't know how far back their traditions go without a literate tradition, we don't know of major important dates in their past, or anything about them, except what their modern (post-European arrival) descendants have told us. Like most hunter-gathering peoples they leave little archaeological trace. As far as is practical, whatever great past and Aboriginal Reasoning which may have occured is as good as dead to us.

In addition, the Aboriginal People both through so thinly populating Australia, and through European (White Australian) Intrusion have had little chance to pass on their heritage to Australia. Whatever too little, too late, token stances the Australian Government might be making, they have had little impact on modern Australia, they have always lived in tandem, not as a mix in Australia with the colonisers (as opposed to Perú or Mexico and even to a far lesser extent your more progressive neighbours the New Zealanders) and for all intents and purposes, Australian's are culturally New World Europeans. There is no continuous Australian History that links whatever known tens and thousand of years of history to you at all.

Your argument is intellectually stunted. Your White Australian attempt at trying to turn me into some kind of pseudo-racist is beyond low. I have nothing but respect for the Aboriginal People of Australia, but I live in a reality not a White Australio-Centric view of the world, which whitewashes the past and present, Aboriginal Culture simply plays no part in modern Australia.

In fact its the kind of arrogance towards indigenous Australians that led to their dispicable treatment at the hands of the colonisers. The ideals of nationhood, institutions and government are western concepts, to argue that Australian history does not pre-date colonialisation because of a lack of these concepts is pure arrogance.

The idea of history is also a fairly Western Concept (or at least Eurasian one) if you are going to make that argument (not unfairly) then be consistent - instead of arguing the tens of thousands of years of Aboriginal History (which of course doesn't exist otherwise we would know about it). Of course the ideas of nationhood, government and institutions in the form we know them today, are mostly (whilst not entirely) Western Ideas and Concepts, but unfortunately or otherwise that is the deck that we are dealing with today, and that is what organisations such as FIFA are composed as.

I have lived for many years in Europe and I love Paris, Prague, Amsterdam etc. But for you to say that Australia is bland clearly demonstrates that you have never been here. Australia is consistantly voted as a favoured destination for immigrants and tourists alike. It has an amazing diversity of cultures and, while its not perfect, it has clean, safe cities.

I'm sure Australia, with good weather, relatively good prices, English-Speaking people would offer the pasty white Englishman who wishes to do little more than get a tan, and avoid anything where he might actually learn something about another people (as opposed to transplanted English Speaking Europeans) and another culture. To me an English Speaking Country with no cultural tradition of its own is bland. Give it time, and you'll probably not be.

Are you just pissed that the Ashes will soon be won back by Australia? (Thats just friendly banter by the way, not anti-English sentiment)

Well thats good. And I'd like to think there is nothing Anti-Australian in what I have said. It's not Australia's fault that they are lacking in their own culture or traditions or heritage, it's an accident of fate, and in time it will change, but for the present century, Australia won't have a rich, vibrant or unique culture which can compensate for it's lack of suitable venues for the world cup, it's passionless indifference to the world game, it's very small population (find me another country with just 20 million that has hosted the World Cup anytime in the last forty years, since the World Cup has been anything near the size, in terms of both the number of teams and facilities as well as viewership that it has now) and relatively few suitable venues (I'm sorry but you have some of the greatest stadia for cricket, they would however be poor venues for football).

Try your hand at something else. It's hardly as if Australia hasn't hosted many other competitions, or doesn't have a rich sporting tradition in every sport save Association Football and Athletics.
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Old October 15th, 2006, 09:53 PM   #1237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valeroso View Post
I think it would be arrogant to dismiss the chance of Australia hosting a World Cup. If it doesn't happen in 2018, then it will happen in 2022. If not in 2022, then 2026. If not 2026, then 2030. Either way, I'm certain (and pretty optimistic) that Australia will host the World Cup in the future and do a great job of it!
If we are logical, Australia should get it in 2022.
- 2010 will take place in South Africa
- 2014 in South America: Brazil is the only SA country that could host alone a WC with 32 teams. I think that Brazil will do everything to achieve it (and to win the WC again but that's another story).
- 2018 in Europe because Europe can let 3 WC outside. England (or UK) will be the front runner.
- So, a WC in Australia in 2022 could be great.
- 2026: I hope a WC in Canada but USA and Mexico will try to get it too.
- 2030: Uruguay for the 100th or a big country in Asia (China, India...) or a European country (Spain ?, Portugal ?, Russia ?, Turkey ?, European Union ?)
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Old October 16th, 2006, 04:33 AM   #1238
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well, they are actually are about to use this feature for the first time since 2001, so if need be telstra dome is able to convert into football mode.
There was talk of them moving the stands in for the rest of the a-league season, but they haven't done it yet. I can't imagine it happening, because they will have to keep moving them in and out so the grass underneath can be watered & get some light on it. It will end up being too costly for them.
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Old October 16th, 2006, 06:06 AM   #1239
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Originally Posted by BobDaBuilder View Post
The topic should have read:

"In what year will Australia host the World Cup?" For that is a given!
Nothing like it.

The suggestion seems to be that Australia are good at hosting sporting events, and have/can develope the stadiums/infrastructure to deal with hosting a world cup...

Here's a list of nations with higher populations and greater footballing traditions (in terms of participation and national interest) than Australia, none of which have hosted a world cup finals tournament...

Europe:
Russia (148 million)
Turkey (62 million)
Ukraine (52 million)
Poland (39 million)
Romania (24 million)
(all of whom will struggle to get a finals in the face of bids from England, Spain, Italy, France, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, etc.)

Americas:
Colombia (35 million)
Canada (29 million)
Peru (23 million)
(all of whom will struggle to get a finals in the face of bids from Argentina, the USA, Mexico and Brazil (by the time the others have had a shot it'll be another 50 years since 2014!)

The Rest (those Australia would be bidding against):
China (1.2 billion) - huge population and interest in football
Indonesia (160 million) - huge population and interest in football
Philippines (70 million) - huge population and interest in football
Iran (63 million) - huge country, regular competitors in WC finals, good timing for Euro tv
Egypt (60 million) - huge country, good timing for Euro tv
Morocco (27 million) - lost out narrowly to S.A. for 2010, good timing for Euro tv
Iraq (19 million) - rebuilt and waving the US flag for democrasy, good timing for Euro tv
Plus other '3rd world' nations which in 50 years time may have gone some way to sorting out their finances (Nigeria, India, Pakistan)
(plus the probable future bid by Japan to rehost the tournament alone, and the possibilty of an 'insider' bid by the Emirates)
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Old October 16th, 2006, 07:36 AM   #1240
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Lostboy, someone had posted a warning a few pages back not to respond to your posts, I should have listened....


History by its very definition is recorded and therefore requires a literate society.

Your post on page 3 links history to culture, culture does not require a literate society, hence my argument that Australian history pre-dates colonialisation.

I have nothing but pure respect for the Aboriginal People, and dismay at the way they hjave been handled by white people throughout the contact period. If everyone lived like Aborigines we would not be in the environmental mess that we are currently in, thanks to our greed. A pity that both New World nations of Australia and America have ignored the Kyoto agreement, which itself was far below the minimum of what we need to do to divert global climate change.

Agree 100%

Your argument is intellectually stunted. Your White Australian attempt at trying to turn me into some kind of pseudo-racist is beyond low.

I have not attempted to make anyone out to be a pseudo-racist. It is your view on what constitutes history that discounts the aboriginal experience.

I have nothing but respect for the Aboriginal People of Australia, but I live in a reality not a White Australio-Centric view of the world, which whitewashes the past and present, Aboriginal Culture simply plays no part in modern Australia

Once again the arrogance is astounding! Your 'reality' is somehow a more realistic view on the world than mine! And then you call me intellectually stunted. Get a grip. I am not going to explain my background/areas of expertise but they range far beyond a 'White Aistralio-Centric view of the world'.


The idea of history is also a fairly Western Concept (or at least Eurasian one) if you are going to make that argument (not unfairly) then be consistent - instead of arguing the tens of thousands of years of Aboriginal History (which of course doesn't exist otherwise we would know about it).

So you are essentially still denying the existance of Aboriginal history, not only whether it can be defined as a history but whether their culture existed?


Of course the ideas of nationhood, government and institutions in the form we know them today, are mostly (whilst not entirely) Western Ideas and Concepts, but unfortunately or otherwise that is the deck that we are dealing with today, and that is what organisations such as FIFA are composed as.

My argument was against your statements of Australia having no history and being a bland mono-culture, no criticism of FIFA.


I'm sure Australia, with good weather, relatively good prices, English-Speaking people would offer the pasty white Englishman who wishes to do little more than get a tan, and avoid anything where he might actually learn something about another people (as opposed to transplanted English Speaking Europeans) and another culture. To me an English Speaking Country with no cultural tradition of its own is bland. Give it time, and you'll probably not be.

You need to learn some tact my man. You are essentially dismissing the entire country as a void where one cannot learn anything about other cultures.



Well thats good. And I'd like to think there is nothing Anti-Australian in what I have said. It's not Australia's fault that they are lacking in their own culture or traditions or heritage, it's an accident of fate, and in time it will change,

Once again you dismiss all of Australia's culture through generalisations. You clearly know very little about the subject and your flippant generalisations over the last few posts have demonstrated your intellectual incapacity.

Last edited by andypandy; October 16th, 2006 at 11:21 AM.
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