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View Poll Results: Which bid should host the FIFA World Cup 2018 / 2022?
Australia - 2018 255 12.32%
Belgium / Netherlands - 2018 247 11.94%
England - 2018 538 26.00%
Indonesia - 2018 68 3.29%
Japan - 2018 35 1.69%
Mexico - 2018 105 5.07%
Qatar - 2018 78 3.77%
Russia - 2018 279 13.48%
South Korea - 2018 16 0.77%
Spain / Portugal - 2018 267 12.90%
USA - 2018 116 5.61%
Australia - 2022 378 18.27%
Belgium / Netherlands - 2022 111 5.36%
England - 2022 114 5.51%
Indonesia - 2022 122 5.90%
Japan - 2022 37 1.79%
Mexico - 2022 149 7.20%
Qatar - 2022 153 7.39%
Russia - 2022 148 7.15%
South Korea - 2022 23 1.11%
Spain / Portugal - 2022 184 8.89%
USA - 2022 249 12.03%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 2069. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 23rd, 2005, 06:47 PM   #121
JimB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eomer
No: from a book about France 98.
Presumably a book about France 98 which says that further increases in capacity would be required at two or three stadia if a future French bid was to meet the new guidelines?
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 07:43 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimB
I can't see either FIFA or the Spanish being keen on a joint bid with Portugal. FIFA would rather not have any joint hosts, if at all possible. And Spain are quite capable of hosting a World Cup (as they already have, in 1982) without the help of any other country.

And as regards increasing capacity at any of Portugal's 30,000 seat stadia, as I said before, there would really be no point. The extra capacity would only be required for the five weeks of a World Cup, with perhaps as few as three games at some stadia. Furthermore, even if Portugal did upgrade each of its 30,000 seat stadia to 40,000, they would still not be remotely able to compete in terms of stadium capacity with England and Spain.

Anything's possible, of course, but I simply can't imagine that a Portuguese bid for the World Cup in 2018 would be successful.
Indeed it is hard to see Spain needing Portugal's stadiums so badly(although obviously the number and standard needed has increased since 1982) they'd risk the disadvantage of a joint bid and its harder still to see either bid beating England if we go for 2018. Spain are IMHO much more likely to get the european championships before they see the world cup again and such a bid would obviously not inclue Portugal.

There would I agree be no long term reason to increase the capacity of the 30 k stadia but if only one or two needed to be increased rather than half a dozen in order to secure a joint bid it wouldnt be an unreasonable cost. As I said something like the Algarve could easily have telstra style temp seats added.

Quote:
You can have 3 stadium with less than 30 000 but you need at least:
- 80 000 for opening match and final
- 60 000 for each semi-finals
- 50 000 for each 1/4 final
They havent stuck to those guidelines very well then as neither Korea/Japan nore Germany have an 80 k stadium for the opening match/final.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 08:14 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimB
I'm not underestimating Portugal at all.

But the simple truth is that its stadia - other than those of Benfica, Sporting and Porto - are not big enough to stage a World Cup.

Now you can say, of course, that they will build bigger stadia. But what would be the point of that? Here's an analysis of this season's and last season's average attendances for the best supported clubs in Portugal's top league (figures rounded down to the nearest 1000):

Benfica - capacity 65,000; average attendance 2004-5: 35,000; average attendance 2005-6: 30,000.

Porto - capacity 50,000 plus; 2004-5: 36,000; 2005-6: 41,000.

Sporting - capacity 50,000 plus; 2004-5: 29,000; 2005-06: 33,000.

So, at best, Portugal's top three clubs are operating at only 80% of capacity. At worst, they are operating at less than 50% of capacity.

And the picture is even bleaker for the smaller clubs.

Next best supported club over the past two years has been Guimares. I don't know what their capacity is (30,000?) but they have averaged 15,000 and 14,000 last season and this. Then Braga - 11,000 and 10,000; Coimbra - 9,000 and 10,000; and Boavista - 9,000 and 5,000.

No other club in Portugal has managed to maintain an average attendance over the past two years of over 5,000. So I ask you (without any antipathy to Portugal at all - it's a great country!), why on earth would Portugal want a minimum of ten stadia with a capacity of more than 40,000? There simply isn't the requirement. Even the three biggest clubs can rarely average more than 40,000 and the rest are nowhere near EVER needing that sort of capacity.

The World Cup is a great and prestigious event. But it should never become a reason for countries (and cities and football clubs) to build costly white elephants that will never be used once the World Cup month has been and gone.
No, you've got it all wrong. We're not going to build any more stadiums - we've had enough of them already. The idea is to upgrade them by 2014/2018. They can easily accomodate 40.000.
All new stadiums have a capacity of more than 35.000 and I'm not sure about that rule regarding capacity requirements.

Besides that, FIFA authorities have always refered that Portugal can easily hold a world cup, especially taking into account two main demands (since stadiums are not a problem): security (which Portugal offers) and organization merit, which we gained with Euro2004. Our method of organising this event was studied and will be introduced in Euro2008 mainly due to its outstanding results and obviously the big profits it made.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 08:53 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo2004
No, you've got it all wrong. We're not going to build any more stadiums - we've had enough of them already. The idea is to upgrade them by 2014/2018. They can easily accomodate 40.000.
All new stadiums have a capacity of more than 35.000 and I'm not sure about that rule regarding capacity requirements.
According to the following two websites, only the big three stadia have a capacity of more than 30,000. The other seven are, to the nearest thousand, just above or just below 30,000.

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium...euro2004.shtml

http://www.stadiumguide.com/euro2004.htm

Quote:
Besides that, FIFA authorities have always refered that Portugal can easily hold a world cup, especially taking into account two main demands (since stadiums are not a problem): security (which Portugal offers) and organization merit, which we gained with Euro2004. Our method of organising this event was studied and will be introduced in Euro2008 mainly due to its outstanding results and obviously the big profits it made.
That may well be true - and Portugal did a great job for Euro 2004 - but the problem will be that Portugal simply cannot begin to compete with England and Spain for the size of their stadia and, therefore, the potential profit for FIFA. By 2018, England will have:

1. Wembley, London (90,000)

2. Old Trafford, Manchester (at least 75,000 but maybe as much as 90,000+ by 2018)

3. The Emirates stadium, London (60,000)

4. Liverpool's new stadium (60,000)

5. St James' Park, Newcastle (now 52,000 but sure to be increased to over 60,000 by 2018)

6. City of Manchester stadium (48,000)

7. Stadium of Light, Sunderland (48,000 but, again, might well have increased by 2018)

8. Villa Park, Birmingham (currently 43,000 but there are plans to increase to 50,000)

9. Stamford Bridge, London (42,000 but Chelsea will either increase capacity to 50,000+ or build a new 50,000+ stadium long before 2018)

10. Elland Road, Leeds (currently 40,000 but, with Ken Bates as Leeds chairman, sure to redevelop and increase capacity once they return to the Premiership and sound financial footing)

In addition, it is probable that Tottenham and Everton will finally have done something with their stadia by 2018, with a 50,000+ capacity likely for both.

And Birmingham City are currently working on a new proposal for a new 50,000 seat stadium. And the likes of Southampton, Middlesbrough, Derby and Leicester could all redevelop their stadia to over 40,000 with relative ease. Sheffield Wednesday also have a 40,000 seat stadium, though it would require significant upgrading.

Finally, it is also possible (though unlikely), that rugby's Twickenham stadium (capacity 82,000) could be used for the World Cup.

It's hard to see how Portugal could beat that lot. But stranger things have happened, I suppose.
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Old November 23rd, 2005, 09:19 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimB
Finally, it is also possible (though unlikely), that rugby's Twickenham stadium (capacity 82,000) could be used for the World Cup.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 12:19 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephisto
In regards to the stadia not being true football grounds... out of the ones I have listed in my previous post, only the MCG is a circular stadium. The rest are or can be configured to be rectangular grounds. So thats 8 stadiums ready to go with upgrades on a couple of them with 2 new rectangular stadiums built. Stadium wise Australia has no problem.

Australia can get 10 high quality stadiums over 40,000 without much hassle. Theres already 6 quality stadiums over 40,000.
i dont see it. we dont have 8 ready to go now over 40000. converting a 15000 seat stadium to 40000 is not an upgrade, its a rebuild.
this also assumes Perth and Adelaide will build complete new stadiums by this time. a 40000 seat stadium these days costs around $400 million. Who'll pay for these?
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Old November 24th, 2005, 12:52 AM   #127
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This stadium cost £59 million. Capacity is 53466 for German league games and 45600 for internationals.
















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Old November 24th, 2005, 01:29 AM   #128
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You never know by 2018 there could be a 'smoky' going for the hosting of the World Cup.

Russia, Ukraine, Poland or even places like Turkey could have a crack. It is a long way off.

Not sure if England is a great choice though. Sure its stadiums are wonderful but there is more to hosting a World Cup than that. It is a very costly place, very poor hotel accomadation(also costly and most make Fawlty Towers appear like a luxurious 5 star hotel) not to mention the xenophobia factor from British citizens with potential attacks on foreigners. Their hooligans would only need a Tube ticket.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 01:32 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobDaBuilder
Not sure if England is a great choice though. Sure its stadiums are wonderful but there is more to hosting a World Cup than that. It is a very costly place, very poor hotel accomadation(also costly and most make Fawlty Towers appear like a luxurious 5 star hotel) not to mention the xenophobia factor from British citizens with potential attacks on foreigners. Their hooligans would only need a Tube ticket.
I think you're worrying needlessly. The IOC seemed satisfied with London for the Olympics.

Since Sepp Blatter siad it would be great for England to bid for 2018 I think it'd be fair to say it'll come to Europe and since our facilites are so far ahead of the competition I personally think we're pretty much home and hosed.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 01:36 AM   #130
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i believe sepp blatter actually invited england to create a bid... basically his way of saying "we'd like to host the world cup in your nice stadiums in 2018 please". given the massive gulf in quality between english stadiums and other countries hosting the world cup wouldnt be a problem, infact london could host it by itself.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 01:39 AM   #131
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Thats right gothic.

One of the things FIFA will like the most are the English ticket prices. parhaps 3million tickets at £100 a pop!
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Old November 24th, 2005, 01:58 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobDaBuilder
Not sure if England is a great choice though. Sure its stadiums are wonderful but there is more to hosting a World Cup than that. It is a very costly place, very poor hotel accomadation(also costly and most make Fawlty Towers appear like a luxurious 5 star hotel) not to mention the xenophobia factor from British citizens with potential attacks on foreigners. Their hooligans would only need a Tube ticket.
Whoah! Steady on with the stereotypes, there, you cork hat wearing convict.

But seriously, British hotels are not what they once were, when Fawlty Towers was made. I'm not saying that they're all great but they're no worse than most other places you'll go to in the western world. As to expense, well Japan is hardly a bargain basement country. If Japan isn't too expensive for FIFA, then neither is England.

And, without becoming complacent, English hooliganism is much more under control now than it was even five years ago. England travelled in far higher numbers than other countries to both Japan in 2002 (where we had over 20,000) and Portugal (where we had up to 100,000) and there was hardly any trouble at all. Besides, English hooliganism was always more of a problem when England travelled abroad. It never happened on anything like the same scale in England.

And, just for the record, the English are no more xenophobic than any other nation.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 02:08 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimB
Whoah! Steady on with the stereotypes, there, you cork hat wearing convict.

But seriously, British hotels are not what they once were, when Fawlty Towers was made. I'm not saying that they're all great but they're no worse than most other places you'll go to in the western world. As to expense, well Japan is hardly a bargain basement country. If Japan isn't too expensive for FIFA, then neither is England.

And, without becoming complacent, English hooliganism is much more under control now than it was even five years ago. England travelled in far higher numbers than other countries to both Japan in 2002 (where we had over 20,000) and Portugal (where we had up to 100,000) and there was hardly any trouble at all. Besides, English hooliganism was always more of a problem when England travelled abroad. It never happened on anything like the same scale in England.

And, just for the record, the English are no more xenophobic than any other nation.
I would go so far as saying we are one of the least xenophobic nations in Europe, even though there are still problems. Britain is a far more tolerant country when it comes to the treatment of asylum seekers than Australia has ever been. The only surprise to me is that it's been so long since we last hosted the world cup. However, i do think in 2018 we will be far more ready and prepared than we would have been in 2006 so maybe it could be a blessing.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 02:12 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easysurfer
However, i do think in 2018 we will be far more ready and prepared than we would have been in 2006 so maybe it could be a blessing.
Rooney could still be playing in 2018

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Old November 24th, 2005, 06:43 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loopy70
i dont see it. we dont have 8 ready to go now over 40000. converting a 15000 seat stadium to 40000 is not an upgrade, its a rebuild.
this also assumes Perth and Adelaide will build complete new stadiums by this time. a 40000 seat stadium these days costs around $400 million. Who'll pay for these?
Well, we don't have 8 ready to go with over 40,000.. but we do have 5. Telstra 85k, MCG 100k, Dome 55k, Suncorp 55k, Aussie 43k. That's half the stadiums needed right there. Should Australia win the World Cup bid, you can bet your ass that Aussie will be increased to 55k, as there were plans a couple of years ago to increase the capacity to attract bigger events but for some reason they were put on hold. So they are all the big stadiums which will be used for the finals too so thats a bonus.

Throw in the new Gold Coast stadium which is going to be a 25,000 stadium, however plans allow it to add a second tier and be increased to 40,000 should the need arise.

Canberra Stadium holds 26,000, and Newcastle's newly renovated stadium will hold 30,000. Both these can be upgraded to 40,000. So they're not small 15,000 stadiums which need to be rebuilt.

Thats 8 stadiums.

Now it's been often mentioned that Perth want to build a new multipurpse rectangular stadium. With Perth Glory, the new Force rugby team and in the next 10 years probably a new Perth rugby league team, you can see why they would want to build a big one which can also be used for other events.
50,000 would be the ideal capacity of such a stadium.

Only Adelaide will have a bit of a problem regarding a stadium. If Hindmarsh (18,000) can be upgraded to 35,000, then that would be fine.

Also a stadium neednt cost that much to build. $200 million would be enough to build a high quality 50,000 stadium. Melbourne and Gold Coast are building 25,000 stadiums for less than $100 million that are going to be state of the art.

So really, I don't think stadia would be holding back Australias bid at all. 5 stadiums ready, with 4 upgrades (10,000-15,000 additional seats per stadium) and 1 new stadium in Perth (which is already on the cards regardless of a world cup bid).

Training stadia are a non issue as there are plenty of good 20,000 seat stadiums with good facilities across the country, particularly in Sydney which has about 7.

Last edited by Mephisto; November 24th, 2005 at 07:38 AM.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 07:33 AM   #136
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This has been discussed on a number of forums that I visit. One excellent point was made, 2018 is 13 years away. Go back 13 years (1992) and look at the stadia that was around in Australia then:

MCG - Was just being redeveloped to add the Southern Stand
Telstra Stadium - Was not even thought of
Telstra Dome - Not even thought of
Suncorp - Was still the old Lang Park
Hindmarsh Stadium - Was a small stadium in Adelaide
MES - Was Perth Oval hosting WAFL matches
Gold Coast Stadium - Not even thought of

If you look at that, who knows what stadia may be developed in 13 years time. The ones we know of are the Gold Coast Stadium, a new Olympic Park Stadium in Melbourne, which by 2018 will probably be around 35-40k stadium giving Melbourne 3 stadiums if need be.

Perth will have a new stadium that will seat around 50-60,000, Aussie Stadium will be upgraded.

I certainly dont think the stadia is an issue. Canberra Stadium can easily be upgraded as well, so there is no shortage of stadiums! Enter FIFA politics...
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Old November 24th, 2005, 07:41 AM   #137
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This is my dream of the World cup in Australia to finally finish off the inferior Aussie Rules. I disagree with Adelaide getting a new stadium. It would be a total white elephant at 45k. An upgrade of a second tier at hindmarsh would be plausable.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 09:03 AM   #138
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Worst case scenario for adelaide is that there always is AAMI stadium
which at the moment seats 50,000

If they can somehow temporarily make it more rectangular it would be good.
No doubt Perth will have a stadium built by 2018.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 09:51 AM   #139
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They are looking at building a 60,000 multi-purpose stadium in Perth replacing the WACA and Subiaco as we speak....

You already have today:

MCG 100,000
Homebush 84,000
Docklands 55,000 (with retractable seating)
Lang Park 55,000
The SFS 44,000
Newcastle 30,000 (2 10,000 seat grandstands at either end could up the capacity)
Canberra 30,000 (as above)
Gosford 25,000 (as above)
Gold Coast @Robina 30,000 ???? may be too small
Adelaide has Footy Park 55,000. In 10 years they will upgrade that to hold 65,000 you would think. Too much money to be made.
Perth 65,000 to be built for AFL, S14 and international soccer.

You could easily add Wollongong, Northern Queensland, and Geelong if push came to shove.

Plus we have accomodation for tourists that is of world class standards, and flights to Oz are not too bad nowadays and getting cheaper. Not to mention flights within Oz are almost cheaper than driving.

England won't be Oz's biggest threat for the 2018 World Cup finals, it will be China. FIFA wants it there, that is where the super big money will be in 10-15 years time.

Only time will tell.

First we gotta host the Asian Nations, probably 2011 by the sounds of the words coming out of John O'Neills office.
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Old November 24th, 2005, 10:09 AM   #140
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Another thing, why is it that stadiums that are rectangular have preference to host? Look at many stadiums in Asia and South America etc, who have running tracks around the pitch etc. Hell, the game played in Uruguay even had enough room for a track between the pitch and the stands.
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