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Old January 30th, 2008, 07:27 AM   #2461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZ-II View Post
i think that pic clears up:

[IMG]http://i32.************/16gevr.jpg[/IMG]
what does this 'clear up'? seems like the floor plates change ("get smaller") and the concrete columns and the core get smaller nearer the top.. I don't see the bow/tilt in the columns.
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Old January 30th, 2008, 07:29 AM   #2462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eeerwin View Post
One more reference here

The yellow line is where the tilting start
the yellow line marks the top of the complete floorplates... above that is an illusion.
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Old January 30th, 2008, 08:32 AM   #2463
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Come check out my mini city i made its pretty cool http://surrey-newton.myminicity.com/
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Old January 30th, 2008, 11:54 AM   #2464
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OK. The columns are maybe not tilted, they may only have one side slanted, as Culwulla said. That doesn't change nothing about the fact that the floors are getting smaller and you can clearly see it here.

[IMG]http://i32.************/16gevr.jpg[/IMG]
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Old January 30th, 2008, 04:17 PM   #2465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by main-framer View Post
a tilt of one column on the upper five floors is not the same as a bowing of the outer load-bearing columns all the way up the building like some are suggesting on ICC. So at the largest part of the bow, the columns would only be tied to the core with steel floor plates? no way those stay up.. they collapse under their own weight.. BUT.. it does depend on how they all tie together at the top... if like burj al arab, then maybe the structure has a chance.
Nobody said the columns are tilting all the way up ICC. The tilt starts at around the 85th floor and is connected to steel plates on every floor.

If you have a better sense of structural mechanics you would understand that columns that are load-bearing can be non-vertical. Diagonal axial members can all take axial load, just that you also have to take into account bending stresses. Also, the physical mechanics of a column tilting on the upper floors is exactly the same as a tilting of the outer load-bearing columns all the way up any building. In addition, the outer columns are tied to the core with a steel structure on which steel floor plates rest on.

May I politely ask if you have studied civil engineering or structural engineering?

EDIT: These photo shows another tilt in the outer load-bearing columns at an earlier stage of construction.









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Old January 30th, 2008, 04:22 PM   #2466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by main-framer View Post
or burj al arab.... I understand.. but this is a pure vertical building.. almost 500 meters tall.. it was not designed to 'tilt'.. ( sway maybe ). unless those concrete columns tie together somehow at the top, there is no way they could be even slightly bowed. those columns are out there naked.. tied to the core with steel floor trusses...
The concrete columns are connected on each floor, as I said, to a steel structure on which steel floor plates rest on. There is no problem with outer load-bearing columns designed to tilt inwards for some floors especially when they are tied to the core. Note that we are not talking about a tilt in the core.
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Old January 30th, 2008, 04:23 PM   #2467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by main-framer View Post
those columns must be loadbearing... otherwise, they wouldn't be so massive or they wouldn't exist at all ( see recent photos of 300 N LaSalle in Chicago).
For this type of building, a large portion of the vertical load is distributed to the core and this is backed by my experience in core load calculations.
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Old January 30th, 2008, 10:47 PM   #2468
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Rachmaniov seems to be in the loop about this. I"m going to ask my dad tonight for his opinion (civil engineer). I"ll admit I don't have much experience in the matter, as I went into engineering and found out quickly that I hated it.
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Old January 31st, 2008, 08:32 AM   #2469
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You know, plenty of buildings have slanted supporting columns. I mean, x-ed frames are a major structural feature of many buildings. The Central Plaza building (Hong Kong) has a triangular frame that runs the height of the building, transferring the loads down to the ground. Um, I believe Citicorp in New York uses a similar design. Many buildings also use x-ed frames to counteract wind forces.

Frank Gehry's buildings use all kinds of weird slants and they seem to stand up fine. Let's see...the Guangzhou TV tower, minus the central core which is clearly visible, is nothing BUT a bundle of slanted columns.

There are countless twisted towers throughout the world as well.
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Old January 31st, 2008, 12:30 PM   #2470
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An old file rescued from my old hard disk:



judge for yourself!
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Old January 31st, 2008, 01:10 PM   #2471
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brilliant now we know
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Old January 31st, 2008, 01:48 PM   #2472
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Excuse me, I'm no engineer, but those 4 columns may well be load-bearing AND tilt in their upper part, since said upper part has to bear an increasingly diminishing weight. And that's why the columns section (and the core's, for that matter) gets thinner too. Doh!
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Old January 31st, 2008, 02:42 PM   #2473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krattle View Post
You know, plenty of buildings have slanted supporting columns. I mean, x-ed frames are a major structural feature of many buildings. The Central Plaza building (Hong Kong) has a triangular frame that runs the height of the building, transferring the loads down to the ground. Um, I believe Citicorp in New York uses a similar design. Many buildings also use x-ed frames to counteract wind forces.

Frank Gehry's buildings use all kinds of weird slants and they seem to stand up fine. Let's see...the Guangzhou TV tower, minus the central core which is clearly visible, is nothing BUT a bundle of slanted columns.

There are countless twisted towers throughout the world as well.
Yep. Citicorp in NY uses V shapes instead of Xs to transfer the loads to the midpoints on each side. And maybe you were talking about the Bank of China Tower.
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Old January 31st, 2008, 05:22 PM   #2474
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Ah yeah, I mean Bank of China Tower.

Actually, I don't know what kind of structure Central Plaza uses. It would be interesting to find out.
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Old January 31st, 2008, 05:38 PM   #2475
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Central Plaza uses a reinforced concrete structure. RC columns surround a concrete core and a transfer structure was designed to transfer loads from higher floors to the core.





Sorry for the digression from the topic but I hope it's useful.
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Old February 1st, 2008, 04:40 AM   #2476
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Is there any information around on what kind of facilities will be in Union Square? Aside from the obvious hotels/apartments/metro. Will there be shopping? Restaurants? I mean, if they're going to build a complex that big I would imagine it would include certain amenities.
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Old February 1st, 2008, 07:46 AM   #2477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aboveday View Post
An old file rescued from my old hard disk:



judge for yourself!

aboveday, if the columns were at the very outside of each plate, I'd agree that they tilt.. but they are not... they are setback from the outer edge of each plate... go back up and look at Rach's floorplate layouts..
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Old February 1st, 2008, 07:49 AM   #2478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachmaninov View Post
For this type of building, a large portion of the vertical load is distributed to the core and this is backed by my experience in core load calculations.
of course I agree the core carries load... but surely those concrete columns do too... otherwise it would be built like 300 N LaSalle.. also, I don't remember 2ifc having concrete columns... I would guess it's because of the floorplate size in ICC.
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Old February 1st, 2008, 08:00 AM   #2479
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rach,
I must agree that the columns are not true vertical.. from those early photos, one can clearly see the columns form a wider base.

my bad.

but, I still contend, that after about the 20th floor, they are true vertical... only tapering ( not tilting ) nearer the top because of decreased load.

to me, this is similar to WTC.. where the steel shell around the building carried load and was only 'tied' to the core via weak floor trusses.. same here.. weak floor trusses that tie the core and outer shell together... it doesn't transfer much load back to the core.. that is why the concrete columns should be ( not must be ) vertical.

didn't mean to beat this thing to death.. I agree these things don't need to be vertical to carry load.. didn't mean to dis anyone but I probably did..
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Old February 1st, 2008, 08:11 AM   #2480
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Just for truth's sake, IFC did have perimeter columns - very big ones at that. Two on each side if remember correctly.

I have a photo from gakei.com that shows them but I can't attach it.
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