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Old December 4th, 2006, 12:29 AM   #421
Cyril
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Some people here keep trying hard(er). Well no fresh news here I'm afraid.
I must be going..bye bye.
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Old December 4th, 2006, 12:51 AM   #422
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3TMK
"And what more interesting do you wish to talk about? How the 15th floor's bathrooms will have lavender scented toilet paper? Or the 41st floor's vending machines will sell minitwix snacks?
So please, if you have nothing interesting to argue, just keep your opinion to yourself, it's getting boring to see you people have nothing to say."

no, u re right i am coming on this website everyday to argue about bullshit. You, the one who think to know everyone opinion, know actually nothing.

I am not a phare lover, as you call them, if u go a the french thread of last monday, you will see my comment about this tower. But, its true i dont like to repeat myself ... 30 times. i prefer to listen...

and actually i think that strong opinions so soon in the project are a little bit prematured ....
u haven't seen all the faces of the towers. ... nothing from inside .... nothing from the building linked with cnit .... nothing from the atrium ... no specificities of the offices .... (everyone would have a vue ???) .... size of the belvedere .... size of the public space ...

these are interesting issues .... then if u have information about that ... i will read ur argument .... but ur bullshit argument about balasko and PPDA ... i can keep it for u ....
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Old December 4th, 2006, 01:55 AM   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnmaddict View Post
this tower will be build.
I know it will, but that doesn't change the fact that I will love to bully it and call it ugly.
I don't see a problem with criticizing the tower, I need to find every little flaw it has. And you can notice I haven't bitched about the back because I actually is great. But I will keep saying that its fat tumor is badly imagined, not to mention the hairs, because I keep finding new ways to hate it. Again, I keep it funky fresh


Europeo, what's wrong with my O'Donnell and Anderson Cooper (to please Kony I use american terms everybody will understand) arguments? I am just saying that just because it's new, it doesn't mean that it isn't repulsive like Rosie O'Donnell is. Just because Anderson Cooper might have talked about it on the news, it doesn't mean it has to be the best. But here's the deal, the people who don't care about skyscrapers would see those images on tv and what the Unibail representatives say about the tower, and believe them! And there is nobody to give them a view of the opposition... that's what amazes me, the nimbys are everywhere in Paris, but for some reason they are muted for both Generali and the Signal. I still can't put my finger on it, I doubt they like the towers, I doubt they care about their meanings, so why do they not complain about them the same way they bitch about every other tower in LD?
Oh, and yes, I have seen all faces of the tower. And even though I've made 50 posts about it, you seem not to know my point, so I just have to repeat it all over again, right? Well I'll give you a short version, if they turn it 180 degress around, they slim it up, fix the top, and not present it as a landmark, then it's good. If they cut it up, downsize it to 200m, not present it as a landmark, put it in a corner of LD, then it's great. But if they take this tower and build it in a lowrise area, then it would be the best, because this tower is not meant to be surrounded by other skyscrapers. It's a loner, it's too freaky to be with others, it looks like the fat weird kid in every teenage movie, it brings down the rest of LD because the contrast it makes is not positive. On the other hand, put it in the middle of a typical haussmanian neighborhood (since people speak about them in the Neuilly part of the Paris thread), then ta-daaaa, it will be almost like Beaubourg.
Because this is a non-tower as Cyril says, and it is asocial with other towers.
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Old December 4th, 2006, 02:11 AM   #424
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BTW: it was the best idea of whole mankind ever to seperate Paris' modern side (La Defense) from the historical inner city district !!! Paris has both, modern and historical, now without destroying the old !!!
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Old December 4th, 2006, 02:13 AM   #425
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Well 3tmk, you accuse of being dictatorial or elitist those who like the tower, and meanwhile you do everything you can to enforce your opinion on others.

Seriously, I've seen no one in here other than you who made so much effort to oppose every single contradicting opinion. Some people don't like it, some other like it, fine for them. It is their own business.

Personally, I find the tower elegant and feminine. And it's not because you'll repeat during 50 lines that I'm wrong that I will change my opinion. Please Fabb, I know you're young and when we're young we love to have contrasted opinion on what's "cool" and what isn't, but open your mind. We aren't robot, and it's not because a building is unexpected that we have necessarily to reject it.

Now this being said, you're totally free to hate it. Simply respect others opinions. In insisting so much, you just annoy everyone, even those who also dislike it.

By the way 3tmk, do you happen to use "Fabb" as a knickname on some other forums ?
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Old December 4th, 2006, 02:21 AM   #426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan View Post
By the way 3tmk, do you happen to use "Fabb" as a knickname on some other forums ?
3tmk suffers from schizophrenia j/k
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Old December 4th, 2006, 02:24 AM   #427
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EDIT: doublepost
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Old December 4th, 2006, 02:25 AM   #428
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Wait, is that to me or to Fabb? Because Fabb is on SSP
I fight fire with fire.
But most of all, and I've said this before, I only criticize the tower when somebody comes to applaud it. They're free to say they like the tower, but I'm free to say that I dislike it as long as I do not act like a child by screaming it over and over. And I don't. I always bring new arguments, and I listen to what the opposition says, and I help them by pointing out the problems.
That is being constructive.
Being childish would be to insult people and say I hate it over and over again without a reason.
But I don't do that. I enjoy reading people's opinions on why this tower is positive, and I try to remind them why in my opinion it isn't.
Think of me as those annoying evangelical groups outside of abortion clinics. I am strongly pro abortion, but I don't mind them scaring teenage girls as long as they don't beat them up.
And I am not beating up anyone, nor am I offending anyone.
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Old December 4th, 2006, 02:26 AM   #429
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now this is what i personally call dégeulasse! no harmony, no structure to follow, looks incomplete. non, merci.
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Old December 4th, 2006, 02:39 AM   #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3tmk View Post
Wait, is that to me or to Fabb? Because Fabb is on SSP

Fabb is also here, that's why I said schizophrenia...
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Old December 4th, 2006, 02:50 AM   #431
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But most of all, and I've said this before, I only criticize the tower when somebody comes to applaud it.
And that's exactly what is silly.

Let people have their opinion, don't enforce yours each time someone is thinking different. The more you bash the tower, the more I love it!


I find the tower fantastic! I love how on the southern leg it seems there is a knee under the dress. I love how that southern foot feels to be in suspension in the air, as if the tower was walking. And this doesn't look fat at all to me! I find the tower gracious and elegant. I find feminine the fact that the tower is all in curve. Even the crown which I used to find disturbing sounds cool to me now. Actually, it remembers Lady Liberty somehow.

And if you automatically answer me to point out how wrong I am, I'll even more love it!
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Old December 4th, 2006, 03:38 AM   #432
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3tmk, apparently not everybody dislike the "tour signal" (aka "tour phare"). I have rarely read such an enthusiastic article about France in the New York Times.

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Towers to transform skylines of Paris and St. Petersburg
By Nicolai Ouroussoff / The New York Times
Published: December 3, 2006

The current mania for flamboyant skyscrapers has been a mixed blessing for architecture. While it has yielded a stunning outburst of creativity, it has also created an atmosphere in which novelty is often prized over innovation.

It is as if the architects were dog owners parading their poodles in front of a frivolous audience.

This mad new world was much in evidence last week when planners announced the results of two major international competitions that included some of the world's brightest architectural luminaries. In each case, a tower design will significantly alter the skyline of one of the world's most beloved cities.

But while the design for the Phare tower near Paris is a work of sparkling originality that wrestles thoughtfully with the urban conflicts of the city's postwar years, the other, the gargantuan Gazprom City in St. Petersburg, is an expression of soulless corporate ego inflated to the scale of the new global economy.

Together, they train a lens on the range of architectural approaches to a daunting problem: the clash between the classical city and a runaway global society. And they suggest how the architect's creative imagination is hobbled when it is detached from historical memory.

Designed by Thom Mayne of Morphosis, a firm based in Los Angeles, the Phare tower will rise amid the office towers of La Défense, the western business district that was conceived in the late 1950s as a way of expanding while protecting the historic center of Paris from overdevelopment. Embedded in this maze of generic towers and blank plazas, the tower will overlook the hollow cube of the 1989 Grande Arche and the elegantly arched concrete roof of Pier Luigi Nervi's 1958 CNIT center.

Given the array of talent involved in this competition, the results over all were surprisingly tame. The lipstick form and vertical gardens of a tower proposed by Jacques Herzog and Pierre de Meuron are virtually a cliché of contemporary architecture at this point. And while Rem Koolhaas and Jean Nouvel made a sincere effort to address the nature of the site, both capped their towers with brutish geometric forms that simply feel tacked on.

By comparison, Mayne dug deeper into the site's convoluted history to create a building of hypnotic power. Viewed from central Paris, the building's weblike skin, draped tautly over the tower's undulating form, will have the gauzy look of fishnet stockings. But as you draw closer, the forms will appear more muscular, with massive crisscrossing steel beams supporting a perforated metal surface.

The aura of the veil has a titillating vibe, but there is nothing superficial about this design. Drawing on the energy of the site - a tangle of roadways and underground trains - the tower transforms La Défense. Supported by a series of gargantuan steel legs evoking a tripod, the tower straddles the site, allowing pedestrian and train traffic to flow directly underneath. The gauzy skin lifts up to envelop a nearby plaza, linking it to the CNIT center. Beneath this perforated metal skirt, gigantic escalators shoot up 10 stories to a lobby packed with restaurants and cafés.

The approach recalls the machine-age fascination with physical and social mobility that yielded masterpieces like the Gare de Lyon in Paris and Grand Central Terminal in New York. Pushing the idea further, Mayne rips the top off an existing plaza to reveal the trains and freeway passing underneath. As you ride up escalators linking the plaza to the lobby, seams open up in the building's skin, creating vertiginous views of an underground world of shadowy figures and the monuments of the beloved city past the Arc de Triomphe to the east.

The notion of building as machine is tempered by the structure's earnest environmental agenda. Double-layered skin on the south side of the building will deflect the harshest sunlight. On the north side, the surface peels apart to reveal transparent glass skin. The tower's peak, conceived as an extension of the skin, seemingly fraying in the breeze, actually consists of a cluster of antennas and a wind farm that will generate electric power.

By embracing a populist lineage that stretches back through the Georges Pompidou Center to Charles Garnier's Paris Opéra, Mayne extracts unexpected beauty from this psychologically isolated site. In so doing, he redeems a scorned area of the city while forging one of the most powerful works Paris has seen in a generation.

If the Phare tower demonstrates architecture's potential as a civilizing tool the design for the Russian energy conglomerate Gazprom matches Paris's catastrophic 1972 Montparnasse Tower in its disdain for the architectural legacy of a world city.

The competition, won by the London- based RMJM, involved many of the same architects as the competition for the Phare tower, from Koolhaas to Nouvel to Herzog and de Meuron, but its scale dwarfs that of the Paris site. It might well have pleased Stalin. Dominated by a 77- story tower, the project is on a site at the edge of the Neva River overlooking the baroque domes of Smolny Cathedral. Gazprom, a government-controlled oil and gas conglomerate, plans to triple the size of its development there in subsequent phases of construction.

RMJM's design is conceived as a pentagon that twists as it rises, culminating in a point akin to a spire. A second skin is wrapped around this structure with the goal of giving it a sleeker, more organic appearance. The tower rests a banal corporate lobby covered by a rooftop garden that slopes down to meet the ground at each end, in an intended echo of the classical gardens of St. Petersburg.

The architects claim that the form of the tower echoes the glorious baroque spires that puncture the city's skyline; they compare the second skin to a fur coat that would create a buffer zone insulating the interior from the city's harsh winters. No matter how they seek to mask it in metaphors, however, this is a conventional corporate tower of the sort that can be found in abundance in Dubai, Singapore and Beijing. The mixed metaphors are a painful trivialization of history - and a sorry attempt to hide uncomfortable realities behind postcard images and trite advertising.

But RMJM was not the only culprit in this regard. Nouvel submitted a design for a row of slender towers encased in a transparent glass shell - a skyline frozen in a block of ice. And Libeskind's proposed two asymmetrical towers whose swooping golden forms join to form a "welcoming gateway" for the city.

Koolhaas was more willing to acknowledge and exploit the project's gargantuan scale. He proposed a cluster of towers of uneven heights, some of which seeming to hover several stories above the ground, a project churning with all the desires and fears of the traditional city. Huge floor plates that connect the towers at midpoint are conceived as vast social mixing chambers packed with auditoriums, cinemas, restaurants and bars. A series of smaller office structures are scattered around the building like stacked ice cubes.

The design is also derived from an unblinking analysis of St. Petersburg's darker history - not just regimental architectural planning under the tsars, underlining the barracks mentality of a series of despots, but the city's complete detachment from Modernism after power shifted to Moscow during the Soviet era. Koolhaas's cubes, for example, arranged in a neat grid at the center of the development and more haphazardly along its edges, are a nod to the Soviet- era housing slabs that flank the site to the north.

RMJM's winning design bypasses that history in favor of the banal reductivism of the global marketplace. If Paris's future tower shows us how a big building can lend new meaning to the past, the Gazprom tower suggests a local history eclipsed by the grinding wheels of world capitalism.
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Old December 4th, 2006, 03:55 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
The approach recalls the machine-age fascination with physical and social mobility that yielded masterpieces like the Gare de Lyon in Paris and Grand Central Terminal in New York. Pushing the idea further, Mayne rips the top off an existing plaza to reveal the trains and freeway passing underneath. As you ride up escalators linking the plaza to the lobby, seams open up in the building's skin, creating vertiginous views of an underground world of shadowy figures and the monuments of the beloved city past the Arc de Triomphe to the east.
A very good article and from the paragraph above it is clear that the renders don't make us fully appreciate all the attractions of the design. I want to ride up these escalators!!!
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Old December 4th, 2006, 04:41 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Given the array of talent involved in this competition, the results over all were surprisingly tame. The lipstick form and vertical gardens of a tower proposed by Jacques Herzog and Pierre de Meuron are virtually a cliché of contemporary architecture at this point. And while Rem Koolhaas and Jean Nouvel made a sincere effort to address the nature of the site, both capped their towers with brutish geometric forms that simply feel tacked on.
[...]
By embracing a populist lineage that stretches back through the Georges Pompidou Center to Charles Garnier's Paris Opéra, Mayne extracts unexpected beauty from this psychologically isolated site. In so doing, he redeems a scorned area of the city while forging one of the most powerful works Paris has seen in a generation.

If the Phare tower demonstrates architecture's potential as a civilizing tool the design for the Russian energy conglomerate Gazprom matches Paris's catastrophic 1972 Montparnasse Tower in its disdain for the architectural legacy of a world city.
.
First of all.... wow, so the other projects must have leaked out, I'll check their websites.
Secondly, how is this tower even trying to embrace a populist movement? It's the whole opposite, this tower is cold, remote, fading away yet not leaving us in peace, it's soft, it's basically a useless lowrise.
Third and final point, the TM, all the asbestos and the unwashed windows aside, is in the top 3 of 20th century architecture in Paris (after Beaubourg and the Trocadero).

Now you challenge me to say you're wrong. You aren't. It is exactly what you say, except that instead of a graceful lady under the dress, it's an asocial fat old maid, because no male tower would ever want to even touch it. So yes, you are right, it is a woman under the dress, it's just that somebody has put beer goggles on. How many drinks have you had tonight?
Honestly, I have to say, if there is one part I love about this tower, it's that I can't stop thinking ways to ridicule it
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Old December 4th, 2006, 04:51 AM   #435
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Nope, couldn't find anything on their websites, I guess we'll have to wait longer to see what LD could have had.
Nouvel says he would have presented the project by the end of November, while Gautrand says she will present it soon

Anyway, I have something fun, who can guess what is most likely to change in the final design?
Personally, I'm sure they'll straighten out the hairs, I just don't see that mess happening into open air at 300m high. They might even get rid of some of the wind turbines to get more open space for tourists.
I doubt they'll change the base, unless if it's to get a better foothold, so they'll probably widen it up
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Old December 4th, 2006, 02:16 PM   #436
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Honestly, I have to say, if there is one part I love about this tower, it's that I can't stop thinking ways to ridicule it
Seek professional help!
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Old December 4th, 2006, 05:27 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Towers to transform skylines of Paris and St. Petersburg
By Nicolai Ouroussoff / The New York Times
Published: December 3, 2006

[...]

The approach recalls the machine-age fascination with physical and social mobility that yielded masterpieces like the Gare de Lyon in Paris and Grand Central Terminal in New York. Pushing the idea further, Mayne rips the top off an existing plaza to reveal the trains and freeway passing underneath. As you ride up escalators linking the plaza to the lobby, seams open up in the building's skin, creating vertiginous views of an underground world of shadowy figures and the monuments of the beloved city past the Arc de Triomphe to the east.

[...]
These views illustrate what the New York Times is referring to:



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Old December 4th, 2006, 06:59 PM   #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metropolitan View Post
I find the tower fantastic! I love how on the southern leg it seems there is a knee under the dress. I love how that southern foot feels to be in suspension in the air, as if the tower was walking.
Hum, exactly what kind of substances do you make use of?
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Old December 4th, 2006, 08:04 PM   #439
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Hum, exactly what kind of substances do you make use of?
Strictly natural products.

Anyway, check out that picture, when I've seen it, I've directly thought about the leg of a walking giant getting ready to squeeze the little smiling human ants.



By the way, this image shows well how the main curb of the building emphasized the impression of height !

Last edited by i_am_hydrogen; June 13th, 2007 at 12:26 AM.
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Old December 4th, 2006, 09:22 PM   #440
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Do not put words into my mouth.
I only lecture those who try to give me lessons
Plus, in this case, I completely agreed that it is a woman under a dress, I just specified what kind of lady I see in there

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