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Old April 3rd, 2011, 04:47 AM   #20901
Traynor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zensteeldude View Post
I think you underestimate the average intelligence of a bird.

I have seen ZERO proof that such towers kill birds.
Just because you haven't cared about birds and haven't bothered to look it up. That is why you have never found proof. You never looked for it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4134773/...s-environment/

An excerpt from the link:

Quote:
Plate glass blamed for billion bird deaths a year
Expert says a single skyscraper can kill 200 birds in a day


The culprit is the plate glass used in windows, skyscrapers and other structures, which the birds strike because they cannot see it.

“Glass is ubiquitous and it’s indiscriminate, killing the fit and the unfit,” said Klem, a Muhlenberg College ornithologist who estimates that collisions with glass kill up to 1 billion birds a year in the United States alone.
There are hundreds of other websites with similar information. A good place to start would be the New York City Audubon. They have 30 years of protecting birds in NY and are the implementers of "Lights Out New York" which is a light-dimming campaign for NY skyscrapers during peak migrating times.

Link to NY Audubon: http://www.nycaudubon.org/home/lightsout.shtml

In the future, do some Google work before you summarily dismiss something. It just makes you look like a closed-minded fool.
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 07:31 AM   #20902
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Let's stay on-topic.

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Timbo in the Apple (March 25th & 26th,2011)

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Old April 3rd, 2011, 07:53 AM   #20903
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Thank you cuz that bird shit was killing me. Where's my April pictures at? Guest I got to go out and take them.
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 11:33 AM   #20904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uaarkson View Post
Yes. Have you never seen a U/C building at night before?
thanks, but why answer the question with a question? If i'd known the answer I wouldn't have asked
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 02:37 PM   #20905
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The video by movie4u2c is extraordinary, what a professional job, many thanks to him & to Dave for posting the link!
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 02:48 PM   #20906
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Everybody knows that New York sends secret armies of street cleaners out to remove the million dead birds a day from beneath it's skyscrapers.
Or, maybe they're invisible birds, so nobody has ever noticed up to 200 of them a day falling from the sky around each building.
I saw it on the internet so it must be true.
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 03:02 PM   #20907
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Really nice cladding!
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 03:31 PM   #20908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zensteeldude View Post
I think you underestimate the average intelligence of a bird.

I have seen ZERO proof that such towers kill birds.
Besides the other post that disprove your point, I have seen it lots of times myself. And I'm living in Amsterdam where there are no skyscrapers at all. In the past years I've seen at least 10 birds trying to fly into a building and crash into the glass. Most of the time I'm in the building itself and hear a loud *POK* and see a bird falling down.

I sure can imagine that a building like WTC7, which on some days almost looks like the sky itself, can kill many birds during migration periods. Albeit it's reflective glass. I think most of the birds get killed because of large transparent windows. Sometimes even humans can walk into a glass door when it has just been cleaned.
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 04:13 PM   #20909
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I didn't know about such and am sure the windows light reflections too do play an important role into such sad events occuring. I 've always hated all these translucent blue glass claddings and windows and can tell how ugly Toronto for example starts to become with such towers popping up everywhere these days and now the same architects are started to take the trend in effect across NYC as well.
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 07:33 PM   #20910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otie View Post
Let's stay on-topic.
I believe expressing a point of view or concern of the outcome of the building in question of this thread is as on topic as possible. I really hope this thread doesn't turn into the style that is Dubai's where any inherent problem with the design is shot down because of massive amounts of jaded pride. The fact of the matter is, the World Trade Complex alone will be responsible for hundreds even thousands of bird deaths every year. And that is as on topic to this here building as anyone can possibly be.
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 07:42 PM   #20911
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Wow. Seeing that video just makes me appreciate even more... This is very like THE largest construction project going on anywhere in the world, and we get to be a part of watching it grow up
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 08:13 PM   #20912
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Thanks to a few, impatient, loud-mouth louts, most of these threads devolve into nothing more than slack-jawed Oohs and Ahhhs at the latest pictures. Any real debate, or intelligent conversation about the overall impact of their design, implementation or ramification of their construction, is construed as off-topic.

These threads are meant to spark conversation about the building, in its entirety, not just a few remarks about the latest column that was installed.

These threads naturally return to the topic, if left to their own devices and are not even moderated.
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Last edited by Traynor; April 3rd, 2011 at 10:24 PM.
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 09:04 PM   #20913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traynor View Post
Thanks to a few, impatient, loud-mouth louts, most of these threads devolve into nothing more than slack-jawed Oohs and Ahhhs at the latest pictures. Any real debate, or intelligent conversation about the overall impact of their design, implementation or ramification of their construction, is construed as off-topic.

These threads are meant to spark conversation about the building, in it's entirety, not just a few remarks about the latest column that was installed.

These threads naturally return to the topic, if left to their own devices and are not even moderated.
true and I support that in you dear Traynor. Can't wait to see you renderings on such.
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 09:16 PM   #20914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traynor View Post
Thanks to a few, impatient, loud-mouth louts, most of these threads devolve into nothing more than slack-jawed Oohs and Ahhhs at the latest pictures. Any real debate, or intelligent conversation about the overall impact of their design, implementation or ramification of their construction, is construed as off-topic.

These threads are meant to spark conversation about the building, in it's entirety, not just a few remarks about the latest column that was installed.

These threads naturally return to the topic, if left to their own devices and are not even moderated.
Well put, I stand by this fully. If a building can stand the test of argument and speculation, then it can truly be a gem. Holding it in such high standards "just because", and let's be honest lots of patriotism (which is fine), doesn't make the building so.
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Old April 3rd, 2011, 10:21 PM   #20915
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This is looking better every second. The new WTC is just going to be awesome looking. I love it

They are going up pretty fast with it. The cladding is going at a good pace
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Old April 4th, 2011, 12:48 AM   #20916
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Over this bird's issue, found a note publicated on November 8th, 2000 (cryptome.org)

Quote:
PORT AUTHORITY TAKES STEPS TO PROTECT MIGRATORY BIRDS AROUND WORLD TRADE CENTER

Floodlights on the roof of 1 World Trade Center will be turned off at night, and other non-essential lights will be dimmed to protect migratory birds from becoming disoriented and crashing into the side of the 110-story skyscrapers.

Skyscrapers present a twin hazard to migrating birds: light and glass. After circling an illuminated building for hours, the birds land on shrubs and trees in planters on the Austin J. Tobin Plaza at the base of the World Trade Center. Trapped inside the glass-and-steel maze of the trade center complex, the birds are vulnerable to collisions with low-level windows. In general, windows reflect the surrounding environment, showing a tree inside the building or paired with another outdoor tree to create an open sight line.

At the recommendation of the New York City Audubon Society, the Port Authority this month has taken several measures to protect migratory birds. They are:

� Floodlights that illuminate the TV masts on the roof of 1 World Trade Center have been turned off at night. The floodlights not only attract birds to the area, but they also are likely to cause many injuries as disoriented birds circle the lit-up communications tower.

� Tenants in the World Trade Center were asked to turn off non-essential lights at night or to close their blinds whenever possible.

� Netting was installed in front of ground-floor windows on the east side of 2 World Trade Center. This wall - located directly across from a planter offering the best habitat within the complex - has been identified as being particularly deadly to birds.

"The Port Authority has consistently worked to be good stewards of the environment, and this initiative is part of that commitment," said Alan Reiss, Director of the World Trade Center. "Helping the Audubon Society try to protect the lives of these birds is the right thing to do. We will continue to work closely with the group in search of other steps we can take to help them achieve their goals."

"Collisions with glass is a major bird conservation issue that's received little attention to date," said Rebekah Creshkoff, a volunteer with the New York City Audubon Society. "Populations of many bird species are in serious decline due to human activity, such as habitat loss and fragmentation, cats, pesticide poisoning and collisions with cars as well as with glass. Steps to reduce the toll on any front are welcome and could significantly help to stem the tide."

Nobody knows exactly how many night migratory birds are disoriented by lit-up skyscrapers, or collide with skyscrapers. But New York City Audubon Society volunteers have discovered nearly 500 dead and injured birds outside the World Trade Center and neighboring skyscrapers since September 5.

Dr. Daniel Klem, an ornithologist at Muhlenberg College in Allentown, Pa., has studied the problem for two decades. His conservative estimate: Glass kills at least 100 million to a billion birds in the United States each year.
This tell us three things:
1) Of course glass towers confuse and kill birds
2) The PA has bioethical values, so we should expect that spire's lightning as well as unnecesary office lightning will be shutten down during birds-migration days.
3) It's a fact that the World Trade Center towers will bring thousands of dead birds to street level, there's no way to solve it. The main question is what are cleaners going to do with many dead bodies.

2nd edit: A second note much interesting than last one

Quote:
Freedom Tower May Be Lifesaver for Birds
Bird-watching is a classic American pastime; over $30 billion a year is spent on the hobby. We love to watch birds when they are in our backyards - their native habitats - but few of us realize the dangers the birds face during their seasonal migrations.
Between 100 million and one billion birds are killed every year in the U.S. when they crash into glass windows. And even one billion deaths might be a conservative estimate, says ornithologist Daniel Klem Jr. of Muhlenberg College in Allentown, PA.

At that upper estimate, it would take approximately 3,000 Exxon Valdez oil spills to match one year's death toll due to glass collisions, says Dr. Klem, who has studied the causes of bird fatalities for over thirty years.

And until recently, he says, the conservation community has not paid attention to the problem "because there's no easy solution."

"There are billions of dollars spent on bird watching," Klem told ABC News. "Acquaintances that I know that are so avid and so knowledgeable about birding - they're totally clueless about this. It's like our populations are bleeding away, and they're not able to be replenished."

Migration Season is Deadly

Most of the fatalities come during the spring and fall migrations, when billions of birds cross the country as they travel great distances - sometimes as far as from Central America to Canada.

The problem is that the glass in buildings is as invisible to birds as it is to people. "By day, birds see sky, clouds and trees reflected in glass facades and they 'think' that they can fly into it," explains industrial ornithologist Richard Podolsky.

"And by night, especially foggy nights when the top of the Empire State Building is draped in fog, birds fixate on lights and fly towards them or around them and crash into buildings."

"We now are building these all-glass buildings everywhere," said New York architect Bruce Fowle. By adding more trees to our cities, says Fowle, "We're enhancing the bird habitat ... At the same time we're creating these killers."

The Freedom Tower

Dr. Podolsky has been advising the developers of New York's 1,776-foot Freedom Tower, which will be built on the site of the World Trade Center and will incorporate innovative designs to reduce bird deaths.

His recommendations: use as little reflective glass as possible at lower levels; position trees and vegetation to minimize their reflections in the glass; and avoid planting trees in atriums with a clear facade.

Podolsky has also proposed a "collision mitigation system" to deter birds from striking the tower at night.

"We hope to have a system in place that will use radar to detect birds approaching the upper floors of the Freedom Tower, and indeed other tall buildings in Lower Manhattan, and dim down the lights that will be used to illuminate the antenna and sculpture at the top of the building," Podolsky told ABC News.

"In this way, birds migrating down the Hudson or East Rivers or along the Atlantic Flyway will not be attracted to the lights of the Freedom Tower ... This is especially important during the fall and spring migrations when many birds are flying north or south over Manhattan."

The Tower's developers have already integrated Podolsky's advice into its plans. The first 186 feet will have wavy textured window glass that will use prisms to "look as solid as stone to a bird," says Jeffrey Holmes of the architecture firm Skidmore, Owings, and Merrill.

It's fitting that the Freedom Tower is taking these steps, because the twin towers of the World Trade Center caused so many bird collisions that in 1997 the New York City Audubon Society created Project Safe Flight to monitor bird collisions at the site.

A Case Study

ABC News recently joined Nicole Delacretaz, manager of Project Safe Flight, as she looked for downed birds at the U.S. Postal Service's Morgan Mail Processing building on Manhattan's West Side, considered by NYCAS to be the deadliest site for birds in the city. NYCAS has documented more than 300 bird fatalities outside the building during this fall's migration season.

The building attracts so many birds because of the trees on the sidewalk around the building and in a park across the street. The building is only six stories high, but its windows are opaque and highly reflective of the vegetation and sky.

The U.S. Postal Service is eager to resolve the problem, according to Yigal Gelb, Project Director of NYCAS. The USPS plans to hire a contractor to etch or sandblast the windows to make them less reflective.

ABC News got an advance look at a study prepared by NYCAS that examines the role of windows and vegetation in bird collisions. The study found that the further the vegetation is from the window, the more lethal the site becomes because the increased distance allows the bird to gain momentum and hit the window with greater force.

Street-Savvy "Urban Birds"

While many people think that most bird collisions occur at night, "It's exactly the reverse," said Gelb. "Light might be playing a role in attracting the birds to the city but the collisions really happen the day after, when they wake up and start feeding and collide into these death traps."

Interestingly, home grown "urban birds" like pigeons, sparrows and starlings seem to have figured out how to safely navigate the glass canyons of New York; the top 20 bird species involved in collisions were all migrants. The top five species involved in collisions are White-throated Sparrow, Common Yellowthroat, Ovenbird, Dark-eyed Junco, and Ruby-crowned Kinglet.

Although the city birds were abundant in the areas surveyed, Audubon found only eight pigeons and 17 sparrows were involved in collisions.

While it's possible that natural bird behavior may keep these "urban birds" out of trouble, some ornithologists believe that these street-savvy birds may have developed a way to avoid colliding with windows. But no one knows for sure.

Last edited by Otie; April 4th, 2011 at 01:37 AM.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 12:55 AM   #20917
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I can guarantee you that a single skyscraper does not kill 200 birds a day.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 01:16 AM   #20918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traynor View Post
Just because you haven't cared about birds and haven't bothered to look it up. That is why you have never found proof. You never looked for it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4134773/...s-environment/

An excerpt from the link:



There are hundreds of other websites with similar information. A good place to start would be the New York City Audubon. They have 30 years of protecting birds in NY and are the implementers of "Lights Out New York" which is a light-dimming campaign for NY skyscrapers during peak migrating times.

Link to NY Audubon: http://www.nycaudubon.org/home/lightsout.shtml

In the future, do some Google work before you summarily dismiss something. It just makes you look like a closed-minded fool.
I was too casual and dismissive about a real concern.

I gave up hunting (Deer and bear) about 20 years ago because I thought it was unfair to kill such animals with such an obvious advantage. (I took up target shooting instead and found it to be far more rewarding.)

I am enligtened, and am a better person for it.

Thank you Traynor.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 01:38 AM   #20919
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I am delighted that so many building owners in recent years have taken steps to mitigate the bird-death solution by dimming their lights at night, however this does not change the effect of mirrored, blue glass during daytime hours.

The old WTC appeared as large shiny metal cubes from a distance and many birds still died. The new towers will be almost invisible from any distance and the bird deaths will be many times worse.

Keep in mind that most birds (except birds of prey, like owls and hawks) do not have binocular vision. They have eyes on either side of their head and therefore have a blind spot in front of them while they fly. They only turn their heads before a landing, to see the perch.

I was disturbed when I saw the glass choice for these towers. Studies have shown that that colour has been the deadliest of all to birds. The complex would have looked different, however Black glass like the Millenium Hotel has, is far less deadly to birds and could have been used.

Notice all the buildings in this picture, especially the Millenium Hotel on the far right and then look how WTC1 is vanishing before your eyes as they put up the cladding. Also 7WTC is practically invisible behind 1WTC.

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(Screen capture from the Discovery Webcam March 16 found here: http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/the-risi...-pictures.html )
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Old April 4th, 2011, 01:52 AM   #20920
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I'm an ignorant in bird's issues. But what I can tell is that the glass of the office floors does not have an own color. The panels may be slightly blue, but what gives that bluish color is the reflection of the sky. If this migrating birds fly realy high, they'll see the glass darker than what we see on street level, they'll see the reflection of the streets and other towers in the surround, hopefully they won't confuse the tower with the sky. If this birds fly in different altitudes, well, the ones who fly in an interval of 10-600 meters (~33ft-~1960ft) above the ground, they'll have a mayor risk to crash into the curtain wall. Also, it depends on what direction are they flying, the tower reflects many colors in different angles.

edit: Another mayor concern is that the National September 11 Memorial will atract hundreds of birds day and night. What will happen when they wake up the next morning while surrounded with too much glass (2WTC, 3WTC and 4WTC)?

Last edited by Otie; April 4th, 2011 at 02:01 AM.
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