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Old April 4th, 2011, 02:04 AM   #20921
STR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otie View Post
But what I can tell is that the glass of the office floors does not have an own color. The panels may be slightly blue, but what gives that bluish color is the reflection of the sky.
Yep. There's the slightest hint of a blue tint to the glazing, caused mostly by the low-iron glass. As for the birds, to hell with them. Plant two giant opaque boxes in their way and they still fly into them. Either stop building upwards, or accept the fact you're going to play a small hand in natural selection for the forseeable future.

There's too damn many birds in urban areas anyway. God help you if you ever park under a tree.



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Old April 4th, 2011, 03:08 AM   #20922
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Some shots i took today in Jersey City...

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DSCN0829 by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

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DSCN0832 by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr
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Old April 4th, 2011, 03:14 AM   #20923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STR View Post
Yep. There's the slightest hint of a blue tint to the glazing, caused mostly by the low-iron glass. As for the birds, to hell with them. Plant two giant opaque boxes in their way and they still fly into them. Either stop building upwards, or accept the fact you're going to play a small hand in natural selection for the forseeable future.

There's too damn many birds in urban areas anyway. God help you if you ever park under a tree.
Your arrogant, insensitive comments aside, they are not opaque, that is the entire point. They appear mirrored to the eye and reflect the sky nearly perfectly.

No one said don't build tall. Did you even read the part about dark-coloured glass? These towers with their highly reflective surfaces (Particularly 1WTC and 4WTC with almost no window mullions to give the birds a fighting chance) are glazed with a style that throws a giant middle finger to known ecological standards of the day.

That kind of brutal "Man Dominating Nature" thinking was typical of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Remember the hubris of the unsinkable Titanic? Even God himself was not supposed to be able to sink her.

Thankfully most people today have accepted the fact that we must take better stewardship of our planet and the environment. Including many building owners that spend millions in anti-bird collision technology. I am glad they are more progressive thinking than you.

All I was lamenting was the choice for the glass. It is very insular-thinking to strive for a look without considering the greater impact it will have.

Furthermore, when this complex is complete and windows are damaged over and over again by bird strikes, the owners will have to somehow retrofit or add anti-bird strike technology anyway. Mark my words, You will read about the expense the PA will have to go to by 2015 at the latest. When all that money and thousands of dead birds could have been saved from the beginning.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 03:15 AM   #20924
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wow, it has shot up so fast. Year of completion?

Plus, chill, Surely the bird splatting issue is just a problem you will inevitably get with all tall buildings, not just 1WTC.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 03:30 AM   #20925
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wow, it has shot up so fast. Year of completion?

Plus, chill, Surely the bird splatting issue is just a problem you will inevitably get with all tall buildings, not just 1WTC.
Yes it really has picked up the pace. Cool
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Old April 4th, 2011, 03:48 AM   #20926
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(Original courtesy Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr )
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Old April 4th, 2011, 04:07 AM   #20927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traynor View Post
Your arrogant, insensitive comments aside, they are not opaque, that is the entire point. They appear mirrored to the eye and reflect the sky nearly perfectly.

No one said don't build tall. Did you even read the part about dark-coloured glass? These towers with their highly reflective surfaces (Particularly 1WTC and 4WTC with almost no window mullions to give the birds a fighting chance) are glazed with a style that throws a giant middle finger to known ecological standards of the day.

That kind of brutal "Man Dominating Nature" thinking was typical of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Remember the hubris of the unsinkable Titanic? Even God himself was not supposed to be able to sink her.

Thankfully most people today have accepted the fact that we must take better stewardship of our planet and the environment. Including many building owners that spend millions in anti-bird collision technology. I am glad they are more progressive thinking than you.

All I was lamenting was the choice for the glass. It is very insular-thinking to strive for a look without considering the greater impact it will have.

Furthermore, when this complex is complete and windows are damaged over and over again by bird strikes, the owners will have to somehow retrofit or add anti-bird strike technology anyway. Mark my words, You will read about the expense the PA will have to go to by 2015 at the latest. When all that money and thousands of dead birds could have been saved from the beginning.
There are a few points to answer to:

1- In a general perspective, dark tinted glass does kill less birds, but not an overwhelming amount. The old twin towers were extremely dark and could be seen perfectly in the sky, but they still averaged hundreds of bird kills a day. Therefore even if you construct a building with a dark surface, you will still kill a good amount of birds. So even though you can focus your design process to minimize bird deaths, you will be sacrificing (possibly) a good design. Because a skyscraper that reflects and blends into the sky, has a smaller visual impact on the landscape. And 1 WTC with dark glass, would look, in my opinion, absolutely hideous. Therefore you would be building a much uglier skyscraper (at least in this case), but you will still be killing hundreds of birds on a daily basis (just like the old WTC did).

2- " Furthermore, when this complex is complete and windows are damaged over and over again by bird strikes, the owners will have to somehow retrofit or add anti-bird strike technology anyway "

No. Because birds impacting a glass panel is not a new problem, therefore they've been taken into consideration when engineering a safe enough panel of glass capable of withstanding these kind of environmental forces.


3- " Remember the hubris of the unsinkable Titanic? Even God himself was not supposed to be able to sink her "

I understand why you use this comparison, but it is completely out of logic. You are comparing the technological knowledge of the early 19th century in a determined field, to the acceptance that "we shouldn't dominate nature" thought you've expressed. By that logic, now we have boats that crack through the ice in the north pole, so what would that mean among those lines of thought? Not that good of an example, sorry.

4- To summarize, even by "spending million of dollars" into these changes, we would still have a considerable amount of birds deaths.
If I, developer, had to invest a massive amount of money into a building, I will probably not spend "millions of dollars" to not even solve a problem, while using darker glass, making the building considerably uglier, therefore having people try to stop the development because they consider the design "ugly" (and that has happened many times before). Plus an ugly building, will make it harder to sell, and given this special case (the site of a terroristic attack), you would also have added political pressure and pressure from the victims family (who wants an ugly building on the site where their loved ones died?).

So, as for this entire discussion, I seriously think it is absolutely on topic, but just as absolutely useless. Especially given that this same argument should be replicated in every thread that is about a skyscraper with "light glass" as the exterior. So about 95% of the skyscrapers on this forum.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 04:27 AM   #20928
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UGH!

You missed the point of the Titanic reference. Not that man shouldn't build stronger ships, but not to have the gall to think they they are better than nature. That is the lesson learned from that disaster.

Dark Glass is ugly? Ludwig Mies van der Rohe is rolling in his grave.

And less death is always better, regardless of the cost.

Finally, the same cannot be said for ALL blue mirrored skyscrapers. Towers 1 and 4 have no visible window mullions, as most others do. This was done to achieve a specific look. That decision further exacerbates the bird-death problem and is the F-You attitude towards nature that I find appalling.
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Last edited by Traynor; April 4th, 2011 at 04:35 AM.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 04:36 AM   #20929
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LOL, does anyone even has any statistic of how many birds get killed by light/dark glasses?

If not this is just a vague discussion with vague arguments.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 04:57 AM   #20930
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I'm amazed this has not been said yet, so I feel I should say it.

Who cares about the birds??

The number that are killed because of this building, or all buildings combined for that matter, is so insignificant to the entire bird population.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 04:59 AM   #20931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilmanjr View Post
I'm amazed this has not been said yet, so I feel I should say it.

Who cares about the birds??
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Old April 4th, 2011, 05:23 AM   #20932
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LOL, does anyone even has any statistic of how many birds get killed by light/dark glasses?

If not this is just a vague discussion with vague arguments.
Curry & Kerlinger says:

Glass Windows
Bird Deaths a year: 100 to 900+ million

House Cats
Bird Deaths a year: 100 Million

Automobiles / Trucks
Bird Deaths a year: 50 to 100 Million

Electric Transmission Line Collisions
Bird Deaths a year: up to 174 million

Agriculture
Bird Deaths a year: 67 million

Communication Towers
Bird Deaths a year: 4 to 10 million

Oil and Gas Extraction
Bird Deaths a year: 1 to 2 million

Electrocutions
Raptor Deaths a year: more than 1,000

Hunting
Bird Deaths a year: 100 + million

Oh well, this is off-topic.

Carol ~ CAP

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Old April 4th, 2011, 05:32 AM   #20933
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Originally Posted by Traynor View Post
Your arrogant
It's so much fun getting you worked up. Not sure what in your past made you crown yourself as protector of the internet and loudmouth to people you really don't know, but it's apparently working out really well for you. How's that SSP suspension going?

Quote:
That kind of brutal "Man Dominating Nature" thinking was typical of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Remember the hubris of the unsinkable Titanic? Even God himself was not supposed to be able to sink her.
And the whole "Why can't we all win" is such a 1990's way of thinking. You have to make tradeoffs, and I'm going to side with the tradeoff that uses 10% less energy, even if it means it kills 10% more birds.

Quote:
All I was lamenting was the choice for the glass. It is very insular-thinking to strive for a look without considering the greater impact it will have.
Except you just got done saying that the Twin Towers killed birds by the thousands, and they were covered in anodized aluminum and deeply bronzed glass. The curtain wall clearly doesn't have that much of a difference. There isn't a magic bird-saving glazing you can apply here. The biggest problem is that you're putting a building up in that location. Everything else pales in comparison to that. Any and every building of sufficient height will kill hundreds of birds a year.

Quote:
Furthermore, when this complex is complete and windows are damaged over and over again by bird strikes, the owners will have to somehow retrofit or add anti-bird strike technology anyway. Mark my words, You will read about the expense the PA will have to go to by 2015 at the latest. When all that money and thousands of dead birds could have been saved from the beginning.
It's inch thick tempered glass designed to withstand 150mph hurricane winds. You clearly have no idea what kind of strength you need to keep a 5x13 foot pane intact under that kind of force. Not only can it take as many birds as you can throw at it, you can throw yourself at it and bounce right off.

ProTip: Know what you're talking about before predicting the future.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 06:06 AM   #20934
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Nexis does not approve of this edited image.....
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Old April 4th, 2011, 06:13 AM   #20935
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Love that post STR, especially this.




Quote:
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There isn't a magic bird-saving glazing you can apply here.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 06:16 AM   #20936
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Can we just go back on subject on ONE WORLD TRADE CENTER and not talk about birds. Please.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 09:16 AM   #20937
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^enough of the "back on on topic" posts. The bird talk is interesting and amusing, plus it's also relevant to this thread. Its not like we are deprived of images/discussion of construction progress here. The thread is great as it is. It's the reason why its probably the most active in this forum.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 10:04 AM   #20938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traynor View Post
That kind of brutal "Man Dominating Nature" thinking was typical of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
Totally agree. But this Darwinian ethos you allude to still pervades America, which, in many ways, is still a raw place where niceties and compassion are regarded as redundant luxuries. Such issues as birds dying because of high rise buildings are the least of their concerns. Their architectural style reflects this too: perhaps too brutal(ist) and tacky though there are wonderful examples of magnificent American buildings.
I personally like the replacement for WTC, the architectural style of it is not what I would call 'typical American', nor is the Polish born architect Daniel Libeskind who was initially (still is?) behind it.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 10:19 AM   #20939
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...Their architectural style reflects this too: perhaps too brutal(ist) and tacky though there are wonderful examples of magnificent American buildings...
Those are some pretty bold words considering America set the benchmark very early on for modern skyscraper architecture...
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Old April 4th, 2011, 10:30 AM   #20940
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nor is the Polish born architect Daniel Libeskind who was initially (still is?) behind it.
Libeskind didn't design any of the buildings (thank God, because he is awful at designing buildings). He created the master plan, the general layout and hasn't had anything to do with the project since 2005.

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Totally agree. But this Darwinian ethos you allude to still pervades America, which, in many ways, is still a raw place where niceties and compassion are regarded as redundant luxuries. Such issues as birds dying because of high rise buildings are the least of their concerns. Their architectural style reflects this too: perhaps too brutal(ist) and tacky
Perhaps, but American's also think that generalized bull#### pop psychology was fun in the 1980's, but is pretentious and silly.
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