daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Development News Forums > General Urban Developments > DN Archives



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 4th, 2012, 08:12 AM   #29181
NewYorker2009
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 241
Likes (Received): 133

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapelo View Post
They started (steel) construction of the North Tower in August 1968, topped out December 1970, with completion in 1972, so technically the Twins took less time to build. This doesn't include the two years from 1966 to 1968 that it took to demolish and excavate Radio Row, dig the bathtub, and pour the foundations. The South Tower was built along the same timeline, with (steel) construction commencing in January 1969, topping out July 1971, and completion in early 1973.

Then again, the Twins were relatively simple buildings (from an engineering perspective) compared to One WTC. Not as much had to go into them to construct them; no reinforced concrete core to cure, prefabricated steel decking and curtain wall sections that were assembled off-site and lifted into place, and so on.
Well that is why I said I'm glad this Tower isn't using as much steel as the original WTC because construction on Tower One has been going on for almost 6 years now and like you mentioned there is a lot going into it like all the concrete and rebar. Had they used more steel for this Tower it would have taken longer. I wasn't comparing the construction speed of the original Towers to this Tower, I was just saying with more steel would have compromised the timetable to get this thing done. This tower is using about 50,000 or 60,000 tons of steel right, something like that. The original Towers each used about 100,000 tons of steel. With Tower One, the Perimeter Wall has less steel than the original Towers so you lose that whole "screen-netting" effect.
NewYorker2009 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 4th, 2012, 08:59 AM   #29182
bgdrewsif
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 65
Likes (Received): 4

I think that the key thing to remember in comparing the construction speed of this new One World Trade Center to the original tower one and tower two is that the original towers were largely fabricated off-site and then shipped to Manhattan as 3-story panel sections that could be quickly joined together and held to the core with the also pre-fabricated floor trusses... the sections were shipped in a very specific order as needed for construction so that each piece arrived just as needed, was put in place, and then the next exterior wall panel, then another, then floor trusses, then more wall panels, and so on... this made the construction on site move quickly, but makes the volume of work at the fabrication facilities off-site less obvious... It is not that this new tower is going any less quickly the the original towers, it is simply that the nature of the work is quite different, and the level of interior work and wiring, as well as on-site safety regulations is much different that it was in the late 1960's.

There are also the considerations of the unique aspects of this project, the multitude of other projects happening within this very small 16-acre site simultaneously with 3 other towers in progress, a museum, and a massive transit hub, the oversight (and meddling) of the Port Authority, the Mayor's office, the governor's office, the LMDC, community groups, unions, etc. that would be far less present in most projects in NYC.

Additionally, the current economic and financial climate that this project is being built under are drastically different than when the original project was built from 1966-1974...
It still remains to be seen how quickly One World Trade Center will be occupied... Tower 3, Tower 2, and the National September 11 Museum are all trapped in limbo over financial disputes at the moment... The Transit Hub is proving to be more complex than envisioned, and various battles over space, money, and project control still continue more than 10 years after the destruction of the original center.

Needless to say this is no ordinary construction project and it is under more scrutiny than perhaps any other construction project in history. NYC is not Dubai where all red tape can just be tossed aside and construction workers rights and property rights are non-existant... I lived in the UAE and know how quickly things get done there... it is easy when nothing but speed matters... The Indian construction workers there are essentially indentured slaves living in appalling conditions and are barely treated as human beings... things that would never be tolerated in the USA. (nor should they be)

So yes, this entire project could have been fully completed 3 or 4 years ago if speed was the only concern, and on September 12th 2001 everyone was calling to quickly rebuild and even make both the towers as they were but one story taller, and an hundred other serious and not-so-serious proposals that followed. Thankfully our messy democratic process (which is non-existant in Dubai and other similar places) slowed things down and allowed everyone to come up with the best plans possible. 20 or 30 years from now I am certain that people not even yet born will look back at some of those original proposals and at what was ultimately built and be thankful that we have taken these 10 years to go with the best ideas and not the fastest or simply with what as most popular at the time... In hindsight, it is likely that as much as New Yorkers came to love the WTC, they probably would not have been built as they were if we had a time machine to go backwards... the old trade center was a concrete expanse barren of green space, it destroyed the existing street grid and cut off much of lower Manhattan from the rest of the island, it was not a mixed used facility and made most of lower Manhattan a virtual ghost-town at night... the center was imposing and inorganic to its surroundings. They were eventually loved not because they were an overall positive asset but because they were familiar and instantly recognizable.

As tragic as the events of 9-11 were, the new world trade center not only serves to try to fill a void left behind but improve upon mistakes made 45 years ago in it's original design... only time will tell if today's designers and engineers will succeed in that endeavor, but I have faith that history will in the long-term justify the new WTC as a triumph of collective will and the democratic process where the original complex failed.

Hopefully this somewhat drawn-out rambling is not a retread of what has already been said a thousand times already, but I wanted to inject some perspective into this deteriorating debate that is seemingly going in circles and accomplishing little... Thoughts?
bgdrewsif no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2012, 11:15 AM   #29183
icemango
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: kuala lumpur
Posts: 174
Likes (Received): 1

what is the official height right now?
icemango no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2012, 11:24 AM   #29184
illegal
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 388
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by icemango View Post
what is the official height right now?
347 m.
illegal no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2012, 11:37 AM   #29185
NewYorker2009
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 241
Likes (Received): 133

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgdrewsif View Post
I think that the key thing to remember in comparing the construction speed of this new One World Trade Center to the original tower one and tower two is that the original towers were largely fabricated off-site and then shipped to Manhattan as 3-story panel sections that could be quickly joined together and held to the core with the also pre-fabricated floor trusses... the sections were shipped in a very specific order as needed for construction so that each piece arrived just as needed, was put in place, and then the next exterior wall panel, then another, then floor trusses, then more wall panels, and so on... this made the construction on site move quickly, but makes the volume of work at the fabrication facilities off-site less obvious... It is not that this new tower is going any less quickly the the original towers, it is simply that the nature of the work is quite different, and the level of interior work and wiring, as well as on-site safety regulations is much different that it was in the late 1960's.

There are also the considerations of the unique aspects of this project, the multitude of other projects happening within this very small 16-acre site simultaneously with 3 other towers in progress, a museum, and a massive transit hub, the oversight (and meddling) of the Port Authority, the Mayor's office, the governor's office, the LMDC, community groups, unions, etc. that would be far less present in most projects in NYC.

Additionally, the current economic and financial climate that this project is being built under are drastically different than when the original project was built from 1966-1974...
It still remains to be seen how quickly One World Trade Center will be occupied... Tower 3, Tower 2, and the National September 11 Museum are all trapped in limbo over financial disputes at the moment... The Transit Hub is proving to be more complex than envisioned, and various battles over space, money, and project control still continue more than 10 years after the destruction of the original center.

Needless to say this is no ordinary construction project and it is under more scrutiny than perhaps any other construction project in history. NYC is not Dubai where all red tape can just be tossed aside and construction workers rights and property rights are non-existant... I lived in the UAE and know how quickly things get done there... it is easy when nothing but speed matters... The Indian construction workers there are essentially indentured slaves living in appalling conditions and are barely treated as human beings... things that would never be tolerated in the USA. (nor should they be)

So yes, this entire project could have been fully completed 3 or 4 years ago if speed was the only concern, and on September 12th 2001 everyone was calling to quickly rebuild and even make both the towers as they were but one story taller, and an hundred other serious and not-so-serious proposals that followed. Thankfully our messy democratic process (which is non-existant in Dubai and other similar places) slowed things down and allowed everyone to come up with the best plans possible. 20 or 30 years from now I am certain that people not even yet born will look back at some of those original proposals and at what was ultimately built and be thankful that we have taken these 10 years to go with the best ideas and not the fastest or simply with what as most popular at the time... In hindsight, it is likely that as much as New Yorkers came to love the WTC, they probably would not have been built as they were if we had a time machine to go backwards... the old trade center was a concrete expanse barren of green space, it destroyed the existing street grid and cut off much of lower Manhattan from the rest of the island, it was not a mixed used facility and made most of lower Manhattan a virtual ghost-town at night... the center was imposing and inorganic to its surroundings. They were eventually loved not because they were an overall positive asset but because they were familiar and instantly recognizable.

As tragic as the events of 9-11 were, the new world trade center not only serves to try to fill a void left behind but improve upon mistakes made 45 years ago in it's original design... only time will tell if today's designers and engineers will succeed in that endeavor, but I have faith that history will in the long-term justify the new WTC as a triumph of collective will and the democratic process where the original complex failed.

Hopefully this somewhat drawn-out rambling is not a retread of what has already been said a thousand times already, but I wanted to inject some perspective into this deteriorating debate that is seemingly going in circles and accomplishing little... Thoughts?
You seem to be missing my point. What I was bringing out was never about comparing the construction speed of the original Towers to the new One World Trade Center. Yes, the 1960's was a different time and the Port Authority really wanted to get the Twin Towers done back then. Today that doesn't seem to be much of an issue obviously. However, I was simply saying had Tower One used more steel or used the same tube-structure technique the building would take longer despite the amount of concrete and rebar being put into it already. Well Tower One already has tenants signed on so I think it will be fully occupied quite quickly despite it being only one Tower and has somewhere to about 2.6 million - 3 million sq. ft of office space. Could things have been done much quicker, absolutely. It's not worth complaining about what they should have done five or ten years ago anymore because we made it to a point where the Tower is almost done anyway. If Tower One still looked the way it did in lets say late 2008, then people would have plenty to say.
NewYorker2009 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2012, 11:39 AM   #29186
NewYorker2009
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 241
Likes (Received): 133

Quote:
Originally Posted by icemango View Post
what is the official height right now?
The Tower still remains on the 90th floor (1,130' 8") and I guess add about 8-10 feet with the column splices. I hope new steel will be erected soon. In the meantime the glass and concrete core are working their way up so this way there is less work to do on that once the building tops out.
NewYorker2009 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2012, 01:23 PM   #29187
Informative
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 100
Likes (Received): 69

We all have to realize that this is more than a Tower. It's a new Innovation. The Tower Cost's more than Twice the Burj Khalifa and many other Skyscrapers around the World, because the main focal point is Quality, Strength, Safety, Efficiency and a new Modern and all off better Building. This Building is being built to standards that far exceed what it expected. We are not in Japan or China where they have hundred's of thousands of workers working non-stop on pace fast to complete the job as soon as possible. We have less people doing the job, but the expertise isn't anything less. I would much rather a strong Building with complete Quality Engineering and all Factors being perfect rather than a rushed Building.

This new Building is truly Phenomenal and is built to be strong so that in the event of a Disaster it won't turn into a travesty. It isn't like the Original WTC's, it is a truly new diverse Building that is basically a Square rotating to be a another Square on top. It's actually basically the same Building but with shaved off sides, however it is a new Innovation in every aspect. It just doesn't look Modern on the outside, but everything on the inside too.

Last edited by Informative; January 4th, 2012 at 01:31 PM.
Informative no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2012, 03:16 PM   #29188
LucasOWTC
Lucas OWTC
 
LucasOWTC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Natal
Posts: 45
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Informative View Post
We all have to realize that this is more than a Tower. It's a new Innovation. The Tower Cost's more than Twice the Burj Khalifa and many other Skyscrapers around the World, because the main focal point is Quality, Strength, Safety, Efficiency and a new Modern and all off better Building. This Building is being built to standards that far exceed what it expected. We are not in Japan or China where they have hundred's of thousands of workers working non-stop on pace fast to complete the job as soon as possible. We have less people doing the job, but the expertise isn't anything less. I would much rather a strong Building with complete Quality Engineering and all Factors being perfect rather than a rushed Building.

This new Building is truly Phenomenal and is built to be strong so that in the event of a Disaster it won't turn into a travesty. It isn't like the Original WTC's, it is a truly new diverse Building that is basically a Square rotating to be a another Square on top. It's actually basically the same Building but with shaved off sides, however it is a new Innovation in every aspect. It just doesn't look Modern on the outside, but everything on the inside too.
I think you're wrong ...

I thought the Burj Khalifa had cost $ 8 billion, and One World Trade Center will cost $ 3.1 billion.
LucasOWTC no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2012, 03:31 PM   #29189
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3547

I agree that it is good that in the US there are proper worker rights and I agree that making these towers as strong as they are is an incredibly important and good thing. The only thing with which I disagree is that the best architectural design was chosen. In my opinion the Twin Towers 2 by Ken Gardner were a massively superior design to what is being built. Rebuilding the Twins and making them the tallest in the US would be the ultimate sign of strength and it would give NYC the ultimately iconic skyscrapers that it deserves. The complex as it is being built is very visionless, shy and uniconic (1WTC isn't even the tallest in the US by roof, what a humiliation to NYC ). I love the buildings (why else would I harvest a half dozen new pics each day) but I think it could have been done better and by better I mean Twin Towers 2. I will never forgive them not rebuilding the Twins
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2012, 03:38 PM   #29190
raider12
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 450
Likes (Received): 128

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
I agree that it is good that in the US there are proper worker rights and I agree that making these towers as strong as they are is an incredibly important and good thing. The only thing with which I disagree is that the best architectural design was chosen. In my opinion the Twin Towers 2 by Ken Gardner were a massively superior design to what is being built. Rebuilding the Twins and making them the tallest in the US would be the ultimate sign of strength and it would give NYC the ultimately iconic skyscrapers that it deserves. The complex as it is being built is very visionless, shy and uniconic (1WTC isn't even the tallest in the US by roof, what a humiliation to NYC ). I love the buildings (why else would I harvest a half dozen new pics each day) but I think it could have been done better and by better I mean Twin Towers 2. I will never forgive them not rebuilding the Twins
This is a recording......
raider12 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2012, 06:50 PM   #29191
Otie
Researcher
 
Otie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,118
Likes (Received): 2186

^ Guys, let me remind you this thread is in the World Development News Forum, there are threads were you can post your thoughts about an alternate masterplan. Please keep on topic.


image hosted on flickr

Brooklyn Bridge, Lower Manhattan, and the moon by Jason Pierce Photography, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

1112_NYC_022-181-Edit.jpg by lawsy1072, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Lower Manhattan, New York City by zgrial, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

September 11 Memorial NJ by caen98, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Tranquil Moments by pmarella, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

WTC II work in progress by lilcals, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

The Colgate Clock, Freedom Tower, and New York City on 1/2/2012 by mudpig, on Flickr

Last edited by Otie; January 4th, 2012 at 06:58 PM.
Otie no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 4th, 2012, 07:08 PM   #29192
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3547

Sorry, I apologize.
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 5th, 2012, 12:32 AM   #29193
WTCNewYork
Registered User
 
WTCNewYork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 505
Likes (Received): 18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
The complex as it is being built is very visionless, shy and uniconic (1WTC isn't even the tallest in the US by roof, what a humiliation to NYC ).
It may not be iconic now, but just wait till the whole complex is done. And also it doesn't necessarily have to be the tallest in the country to be iconic. Back to 1 WTC, I hope they put up more steel! Its been far too long!
WTCNewYork no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 5th, 2012, 01:22 AM   #29194
Informative
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 100
Likes (Received): 69

[/QUOTE]I thought the Burj Khalifa had cost $ 8 billion, and One World Trade Center will cost $ 3.1 billion.

Nope it cost $1.5 Billion, which is quite strange?
Informative no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 5th, 2012, 01:24 AM   #29195
Informative
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 100
Likes (Received): 69

Quote:
Originally Posted by LucasOWTC View Post
I think you're wrong ...

I thought the Burj Khalifa had cost $ 8 billion, and One World Trade Center will cost $ 3.1 billion.
Nope the Burj Khalifa cost $1.5 Billion as strange as that is
Informative no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 5th, 2012, 01:33 AM   #29196
Pedro28
Pedro H.
 
Pedro28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Araxá/MG
Posts: 340
Likes (Received): 141

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otie View Post
^ Guys, let me remind you this thread is in the World Development News Forum, there are threads were you can post your thoughts about an alternate masterplan. Please keep on topic.


image hosted on flickr

Brooklyn Bridge, Lower Manhattan, and the moon by Jason Pierce Photography, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

1112_NYC_022-181-Edit.jpg by lawsy1072, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Lower Manhattan, New York City by zgrial, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

September 11 Memorial NJ by caen98, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Tranquil Moments by pmarella, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

WTC II work in progress by lilcals, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

The Colgate Clock, Freedom Tower, and New York City on 1/2/2012 by mudpig, on Flickr
awesome pics
Pedro28 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 5th, 2012, 02:30 AM   #29197
bgdrewsif
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 65
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Informative View Post
Nope the Burj Khalifa cost $1.5 Billion as strange as that is
Not strange when you are paying Indian indentured construction slaves whose passports you have taken away and threaten to toss in a concrete jail-pen in the desert if they don't work only 50 cents a day with zero benefits, other than a small room the size a typical American holiday inn that is being shared by 10-12 men who must sleep in shifts... Of my 8 months in the UAE the plight of the Indian workers there was the most shocking...they have literally become a virtually invisible slave class... seen everywhere but seen by no
one..
bgdrewsif no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 5th, 2012, 02:35 AM   #29198
zapor1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 298
Likes (Received): 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
I agree that it is good that in the US there are proper worker rights and I agree that making these towers as strong as they are is an incredibly important and good thing. The only thing with which I disagree is that the best architectural design was chosen. In my opinion the Twin Towers 2 by Ken Gardner were a massively superior design to what is being built. Rebuilding the Twins and making them the tallest in the US would be the ultimate sign of strength and it would give NYC the ultimately iconic skyscrapers that it deserves. The complex as it is being built is very visionless, shy and uniconic (1WTC isn't even the tallest in the US by roof, what a humiliation to NYC ). I love the buildings (why else would I harvest a half dozen new pics each day) but I think it could have been done better and by better I mean Twin Towers 2. I will never forgive them not rebuilding the Twins
It's not iconic to you because your version of iconic is height, height, height and more height.
zapor1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 5th, 2012, 02:52 AM   #29199
RobertWalpole
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,607
Likes (Received): 2508

The city!

image hosted on flickr
RobertWalpole no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 5th, 2012, 03:07 AM   #29200
SSCBob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 35
Likes (Received): 2

Is is just me, or are those WFC towers (with the green "hats" on top) in front of 1WTC pure class? And that curved Goldman Sachs tower is absolutely magnificent too.
SSCBob no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
construction updates, development, ground zero, manhattan, new york city, nyc, port authority, supertall, world trade center

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium