daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Development News Forums > General Urban Developments > DN Archives



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 12th, 2012, 03:09 PM   #37081
Kanto
Roof height crusader
 
Kanto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: S-4, Papoose Lake
Posts: 5,925
Likes (Received): 3546

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercenary View Post
Yes it will.

The reason the twin towers fell is that the support structure wasn't fire proofed adequately and the fire caused the trusses to sag which caused the buildings to collapse.

WTC 1 has extensive fire coating on its support structure, and its inner core is extremely strong with very strong concrete used.

So if a plane flies into this building, it would be similar to what happened to the Empire State Building in 1945.

Superficial damage.
I believe you are right. It would be very similar to the ESB incident with that bomber. I'm no engineer but from what I know the Twins were uniquely vulnerable to planes. They were steel only, so fireproofing was vital, however the planes blew the fireproofing off. The fact that in steel columns the Twins relied on quantity rather than on quality also meant that the planes did more structural damage than they would in another building of a different design. lastly, the biggest problem of the Twins were the rather huge distances between their cores and the perimeter structure, which meant that the floors and their trusses were extremely important for stabilizing the main structural elements. It were the trusses, whose failure resulted in the collapse.

On the other hand, 1WTC has most of its strength from its core, which are steel columns encased in very thick super strong concrete, which also acts as indestructible fireproofing. Perimeter steel beams and the floors support essentially just themselves. Therefore the worst case scenario I can imagine is that the perimeter structure would collapse and the core would remain standing essentially undamaged. Though I think most probably, due to the strong connections between the core and the floor supporting trusses would mean that a plane would just punch a hole through the perimeter and that would be it. Just as in the case of the ESB even though a terrorist plane flies many times faster than the bomber did. The core of 1WTC is so strong that a plane would barely scratch it.

However, this does not mean that security doesn't need to be tighter than ever before. A plane would still kill everybody in its line of flight who isn't inside the core and we shouldn't forget that there are other buildings, not as strong as 1WTC which could become targets too. Hundreds would still be killed even though the building would be only slightly damaged. Security must never ever again be underestimated as it was during 9/11.
__________________
The Outbreak: A free browser online strategy game. Build up your town and compete with other towns economicaly and militarily.
http://www.the-outbreak.com/
Kanto no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 12th, 2012, 05:25 PM   #37082
beanhead4529
i like turtles
 
beanhead4529's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 207
Likes (Received): 557

Pics I took from last night:

image hosted on flickr

Gazing Downtown by beanhead4529, on Flickr


image hosted on flickr

Lights from the Heights by beanhead4529, on Flickr


image hosted on flickr

All Eyes on Lower Manhattan by beanhead4529, on Flickr


image hosted on flickr

Up Into the Heavens II by beanhead4529, on Flickr


image hosted on flickr

Eleven Years Later by beanhead4529, on Flickr


image hosted on flickr

Towers in Tribute by beanhead4529, on Flickr
__________________
my flickr!

my instagram!
beanhead4529 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 05:38 PM   #37083
deadhead262
Registered User
 
deadhead262's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Cape town
Posts: 675
Likes (Received): 223

What about 2wtc, will it also be built as strong as 1wtc? It will also be a major target.
deadhead262 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 07:27 PM   #37084
nyarch21
Registered User
 
nyarch21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 476
Likes (Received): 801

Will this be more expensive than the shard?
nyarch21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 07:36 PM   #37085
yankee fan for life
Registered User
 
yankee fan for life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Brooklyn new york
Posts: 832
Likes (Received): 195


1 Wtc is right now has a price tag of 3.8 billion, The Shard is at 3.9 billion.
__________________
My heart beats for Brooklyn new york
yankee fan for life no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 07:51 PM   #37086
nyarch21
Registered User
 
nyarch21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 476
Likes (Received): 801

Wow. Why did the shard cost so much?
nyarch21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 07:56 PM   #37087
MPowell87
Registered User
 
MPowell87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Hemel Hempstead
Posts: 9
Likes (Received): 12

What/where are the beams being projected from?
MPowell87 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 08:39 PM   #37088
spectre000
Moderator
 
spectre000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: St. Paul
Posts: 7,904
Likes (Received): 5170

Quote:
Originally Posted by yankee fan for life View Post

1 Wtc is right now has a price tag of 3.8 billion, The Shard is at 3.9 billion.
I've never seen the Shard's price tag listed so high. Usually less than a billion in fact. But I just did a websearch and found this figure,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...-to-Qatar.html
"The cost of the building The Shard and developing the surrounding area next to London Bridge station is estimated to be £1.5bn."

That converts to $2.4 billion. But also seems to include the "surrounding area", so more than just the skyscraper itself. I'm always curious to know the price tags of these buildings, I know it's next to impossible to get a reliable figure since so many articles have different figures published. Do you have a link for the $3.9b figure?
spectre000 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 09:54 PM   #37089
China Hand
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 705
Likes (Received): 161

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanto View Post
I believe you are right. It would be very similar to the ESB incident with that bomber. I'm no engineer but from what I know the Twins were uniquely vulnerable to planes.
It was the tube-frame structural system, as in Chicago's Aon Center, that did the buildings in. There are no supports in such a structure in the floor plan, with each floor sprung between the exterior of the building and the concrete core, attached to the metal around the core with clips.

Each floor was one acre in size with no columns and unobstructed views all around.

It was these clips, made of a different metal than the structural steel, that fatigued over 90 minutes of fire and gave way. Steel, and other metal, does not need to melt to lose some of its structural strength.

The stairwells were gypsum sheet rock, not concrete. So they all collapsed when the planes hit those floors.

Design tests predicated that a fully laden 707 crash would not destroy the towers, but that was done assuming an unintentional indirect crash and velocity.

KE increases at the square as KE= 1/2 mv2, so building survival at 200 or 300 kph while trying to land does not work so well when someone is at full throttle 1,000 feet off the ground over a major city at Mach 0.90 and aiming squarely for the building to maximise kinetic transfer - conditions never envisioned.

This increased KE to 4X or 8X the energy of an accidental crash.

The buildings were specifically chosen based upon this weakness.
China Hand no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 10:43 PM   #37090
raider12
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 449
Likes (Received): 128

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lockheed992 View Post
Just looking at this makes me want to go to Nyc even more!

Btw, did I mention I'm new?
welcome!
raider12 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2012, 10:51 PM   #37091
babybackribs2314
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 560
Likes (Received): 545

Latest update from yesterday with a bunch of new photos:

http://www.newyorkyimby.com/2012/09/...12-update.html

__________________
My blog with photo updates and development news: New York YIMBY

& follow YIMBY on Twitter! New York YIMBY Twitter
babybackribs2314 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 12:06 AM   #37092
Jex7844
La Défenseholic
 
Jex7844's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Paris 14e
Posts: 6,944
Likes (Received): 2916

I've always wondered why that Tribute of light wasn't projected from Ground Zero where the twin towers were...
__________________
PARIS2024
Jex7844 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 12:16 AM   #37093
cristianer
Registered User
 
cristianer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13
Likes (Received): 3

beanhead4529 beautiful photos. Thanks
cristianer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 12:26 AM   #37094
PMadFlyer
Registered User
 
PMadFlyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 453
Likes (Received): 371

About the comparison between the safety of the old and new towers, I have to say you are all pretty right. The twins were some of the first all steel buildings with an inner core and open floor plan. Despite the ultimate demise of the buildings on that day, thousands of lives below the impact zones were saved by the redundant design. In hindsight, we can say it had inferior fireproofing, or week steel, but they could have never seen a 737 revving it's engines coming towards the tower. The north tower survived a 6 floor fire in 1975 and a bombing in 1993. On 9-11 the towers held their own with gaping holes as the furniture and office equipment within was ignited and the overloaded steel softened and failed. After the momentum was created the force was powerful enough to pulverize concrete into dust.

To answer what would happen to the tower if the tower was attacked similarly, the damage would be horrible on a human scale. Like the 1993 bombing, it would be repaired one way or another. I doubt it will ever happen again though. I'd like to think that most Americans would sacrifice themselves before they would let their plane be used for such an atrocity.

As with a lot of tragic lessons, thousands of lives are lost before we see how naive we were before, be it 9-11, the Holocaust, the atom bombs over Japan, Chernobyl, the World Wars, Vietnam, or many other lessons. This tower is the combination of what we learned on a very dark day at the expense of thousands of lives.
PMadFlyer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 12:33 AM   #37095
NewYorkSkyline117
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Morris County
Posts: 1,091
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by yankee fan for life View Post

1 Wtc is right now has a price tag of 3.8 billion, The Shard is at 3.9 billion.
One World Trade Center is the most expensive office tower in the world. Not the Shard

Last edited by NewYorkSkyline117; September 13th, 2012 at 12:48 AM.
NewYorkSkyline117 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 12:39 AM   #37096
seb.nl
Registered User
 
seb.nl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Eindhoven
Posts: 2,376
Likes (Received): 1277

Not yet supposedly...
seb.nl no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 12:40 AM   #37097
NewYorkSkyline117
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Morris County
Posts: 1,091
Likes (Received): 243

Okay, so those lights were ridiculously high, miles high because I could see them all the way from my front porch in NJ which is over 30 miles. Here are some from the 9/11 memorial in Morristown. This view is 30 miles away from NYC so pretty far

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr
NewYorkSkyline117 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 12:49 AM   #37098
NewYorkSkyline117
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Morris County
Posts: 1,091
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by seb.nl View Post
Not yet supposedly...
The Shard only costs 3.9 billion because they are including the London Bridge Station and the low rises as well. The single building itself did not cost 3.9 billion
NewYorkSkyline117 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 01:07 AM   #37099
meskida
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 19
Likes (Received): 7

1WTC on Apple's iOS6 3D maps:

meskida no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2012, 01:34 AM   #37100
RandomNameTag
Skyscraper fan
 
RandomNameTag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: rural Georgia, United States
Posts: 468
Likes (Received): 22

Quote:
Originally Posted by meskida View Post
1WTC on Apple's iOS6 3D maps:

So this is Apple's answer to Google Earth, eh?
RandomNameTag no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
construction updates, development, ground zero, manhattan, new york city, nyc, port authority, supertall, world trade center

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu