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Old May 17th, 2009, 06:46 AM   #8701
deez
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[QUOTE=Uaarkson;36785540]
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Originally Posted by deez View Post

I was referring to political complexity as well.

the progress is slow, no one is denying that, but you'd be nuts not to notice how quickly this project has been gaining steam just in the last few months

For those of us following this thing for years and years from day one, like myself, steam is hard to see these days, much less get giddy about. I'm steamed out, there's nothing left to defend, really.
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Old May 17th, 2009, 11:49 AM   #8702
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IMO the biggest problems of this project are.

1: That too many people will get involved in it.

2: Too many organisations, agencies etc. will make profit with it.

3: Silverstein as the leaser of the site, doesn't may rebuild how he will!

4: The arrogantic and money-grubbing behaviour of the port authority.

5: The irriatating bureaucracy, for example the security issues the NYPD has pointed out about the design of the lobbies!

6: The fact, that victims relatives will have somehow the right to particulary decide about what should happen on this site.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

If Silverstein had the power over the site from day one after 911 and if he was the only one to decide about this site with some needed aggreements with the government, this site would already be a new WTC. But no, all the factors named above have made this to the most ridiculous executed project ever! And now all the shit with, just to build 2 towers and build the others just as 5 floors tall stumpies, make it even worse and more risiculous! Move your asses, get this thing done and have guts to risk something!
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Old May 17th, 2009, 02:50 PM   #8703
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Sure, Silverstein would have rebuilt, but they would have been just 700 foot towers, not the towers we have now.
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Old May 17th, 2009, 04:58 PM   #8704
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Originally Posted by ramvid01 View Post
Sure, Silverstein would have rebuilt, but they would have been just 700 foot towers, not the towers we have now.
Aside from 1wtc, wasn't it SP that decided to design the other towers the way they are? After all, SP hired Maki, Rogers and Foster.
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Old May 17th, 2009, 07:23 PM   #8705
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Originally Posted by germantower View Post
1: That too many people will get involved in it.
This was inevitable with a project of this size, invested with such historical and political importance. The number of players involved in the decisionmaking process has been scaled back radically so now there is only the Port Authority and Silverstein managing the project, with occasional interference from Mayor Bloomberg and Shelly Silver.
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2: Too many organisations, agencies etc. will make profit with it.
I highly doubt any of the major projects at the WTC will make a profit for a long time, considering the weak real estate market. Any proceeds from the completed towers will go towards paying down the extraordinary costs of construction, and the PANYNJ will probably never make its money back on the transportation hub. The WTC Memorial will also be a net loss.
Quote:
3: Silverstein as the leaser of the site, doesn't may rebuild how he will!
I'm not really sure what you're saying here; Silverstein's problem is that he can get the private financing he promised to build towers 2 and 3. It's that failure that has led to the idea of comercially-driven stubs as an alternative.
Quote:
4: The arrogantic and money-grubbing behaviour of the port authority.
The PANYNJ has a finite amount of funds. It has already had to absorb escalating costs from its own projects, as well as contributing financing to Silverstein's 4WTC. The WTC site is also not the only project on the Authority's plate. Giving Silverstein the funding he's looking for would mean the PANYNJ would have to indefinitely postpone work on the badly-needed new terminal at LaGuardia and other mass transit projects would have to be significantly scaled back or also indefinitely delayed. Giving Silverstein what he wants would be trading infrastructure projects the area desperately needs for office towers that there's no market for. I would hate seeing the master plan gutted, but the Port Authority is emphasizing the right priorities. This situation is the result of Silverstein's failure, not the Port Authority's.
Quote:
5: The irriatating bureaucracy, for example the security issues the NYPD has pointed out about the design of the lobbies!
It is a pain in the ass, for instance the glass-clad concrete bunker that will make up the first several floors of the Freedom Tower. However, if something happens the same people bitching about the delays would be bitching about the government's failure to prevent it.
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6: The fact, that victims relatives will have somehow the right to particulary decide about what should happen on this site.
This I agree with. I don't think the U.S. government should have compenstated the families of the victims because it set a bad precedent, and I think the families' input should have been limited to the memorial. But that's all in the past now, anyway.
Quote:
If Silverstein had the power over the site from day one after 911 and if he was the only one to decide about this site with some needed aggreements with the government, this site would already be a new WTC.
Why should one private developer have had dictator-like control over a vast sums of public money, in addition to his own, and get to decide what to do with one of the most significant sites in the entire country? There's no question he beat the pack when it came to delivering 7WTC on time. But nothing since then leads to believe that he's been a help instead of a hindrince. It was once the Port Authority finally took control of oversight for the redevelopment and started issuing regular reports to Governor Patterson that things got moving. Now the pit is over half developed and almost all projects are on track to hit their deadlines.
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Old May 17th, 2009, 10:23 PM   #8706
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here we go again
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Old May 18th, 2009, 04:37 AM   #8707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam-albany View Post
Why should one private developer have had dictator-like control over a vast sums of public money, in addition to his own, and get to decide what to do with one of the most significant sites in the entire country? There's no question he beat the pack when it came to delivering 7WTC on time. But nothing since then leads to believe that he's been a help instead of a hindrince. It was once the Port Authority finally took control of oversight for the redevelopment and started issuing regular reports to Governor Patterson that things got moving. Now the pit is over half developed and almost all projects are on track to hit their deadlines.
To start with I think the poster's thoughts were that he could've done it with private money if he was able to start immediately instead of having all the interference. Even if he was using public money if he could've ovoid in all of the bureaucracy it would cost a whole lot less than it will now and would be completed by now. He certainly hasn't been a hindrince, only the politicians, unions and survivors family's have done that. As demonstrated by how fast WTC4 is progressing once he starts things move! Their only on track to hit the deadlines that have been reestablished several times. The original timeline and deadlines are long gone.
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Old May 18th, 2009, 05:04 AM   #8708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msradell View Post
To start with I think the poster's thoughts were that he could've done it with private money if he was able to start immediately instead of having all the interference.
Well then, the original poster was sorely mistaken. There is no way the entire complex could have built with private money, even before the bottom fell out of the economy. Even if the money was there, the trains running through the site would have required some public participation.

4WTC is a substantially easier building to construct than 1WTC; aside from not having an active subway line running underneath it, the smaller scale of the building doesn't require the same complexity for the foundations and doesn't make it as much of a target.

And if we're resetting the clock to day one of 4WTC's construction, all of the projects have zipped right along (except for Silverstein's 2WTC and 3WTC).

All of which is neither here nor there, since the project did ensure years of bureaucratic wrangling and delays. Once the PANYNJ finally committed to firm deadlines last year, progress stayed on track.
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Old May 18th, 2009, 05:47 AM   #8709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebola View Post
Aside from 1wtc, wasn't it SP that decided to design the other towers the way they are? After all, SP hired Maki, Rogers and Foster.
That was only after the Port Authority wanted to wrest control of the site from Silverstein. Initially Silverstein was going to build a group of 700 foot towers. While Pataki finally picked the design, Silverstein was committed to building these much smaller buildings.

Then came the whole fiasco between Silverstein and the Port, which led to a revision of the buildings. It was only during these negotiations that a deal was struck that Silverstein had to build out the 10 million sq feet, which forced them to up the height of all the towers. And since Silverstein wanted the best in architectual design, the architects he picked were more inclined to build taller not fatter, since it looks better.
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Old May 18th, 2009, 03:05 PM   #8710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam-albany View Post
There is no way the entire complex could have built with private money, even before the bottom fell out of the economy. Even if the money was there, the trains running through the site would have required some public participation.
Why? Other than scheduling the building isn't really affected by the trains. The foundation just has to span the tracks which really isn't a major consideration. He Would've only had to pay for the building, the track's and the that the responsibility.

Quote:
4WTC is a substantially easier building to construct than 1WTC; aside from not having an active subway line running underneath it, the smaller scale of the building doesn't require the same complexity for the foundations and doesn't make it as much of a target.
1WTC didn't have to be that complex. If the police department and politicians have stayed out of the way and not interfered it would've been much simpler. Much of the complexity was added as a result of their interference. The only reason 1WTC has become a target is because of the design which was mostly a result of the families of victims, not for necessities in the design.

Quote:
And if we're resetting the clock to day one of 4WTC's construction, all of the projects have zipped right along (except for Silverstein's 2WTC and 3WTC).
Not a valid point, the only reason 4WTC was so late in starting (as well as 2WTC and 3WTC) was because of delays caused by outside influence. If Silverstein had been building everything 1WTC would be complete by now and the others well underway.

Quote:
All of which is neither here nor there, since the project did ensure years of bureaucratic wrangling and delays. Once the PANYNJ finally committed to firm deadlines last year, progress stayed on track.
Bureaucracy which has greatly increased the cost of the projects for everyone including Silverstein which is why he now needs additional funding. The PANYNJ committed to several other "firm" deadlines in the past, why does everyone think they will complete everything by the most recent deadline? Actually they are not deadlines at all, they're just targets, nothing is going to happen if they are missed.
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Last edited by Msradell; May 18th, 2009 at 08:06 PM.
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Old May 18th, 2009, 03:13 PM   #8711
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Bravo Msdarell, VERY VERY VERY good points you have mentioned! I think we are about the same opinion about this project.
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Old May 19th, 2009, 12:22 AM   #8712
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And now for something far more enjoyable, visible progress.

Check the earthcam, another climbing form is going to be installed on the north half of the core. It's frame is sitting on Vesey St. being assembled.

My 2 cents worth on why it's taking so long. Just look at #7 and how fast it went up, but then again, nobody died when it came down.

PS: Tower One shares alot of details with #7. (Core design, stairs, curtain wall, entrances, etc.)
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Old May 19th, 2009, 04:05 AM   #8713
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zensteeldude View Post
......Tower One shares alot of details with #7. (Core design, stairs, curtain wall, entrances, etc.)
? Are you sure about this, I thought the first floor areas of FT (1WTC) were redesigned to make that much stronger for protection against terrorist attacks. I don't believe 7WTC has these features.

If the designs are the same (or even close) it's even more reason why construction should be proceeding a lot faster than it is, especially when you look at how fast 7WTC was built! Oh wait, I forgot that 7WTC was built by private industry instead of by governmental bureaucracy.
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Old May 19th, 2009, 04:14 AM   #8714
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If you thought governmental bureaucracy would not happen on a site that a public agency owns and leases to a private developer, and where a national tragedy happened, then sir I must say you are clueless.
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Old May 19th, 2009, 05:10 AM   #8715
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I have to say, at this point, who cares about the World Trade Center reconstruction. It's been a decade since the horiffic attacks, and at this time, in a recession, in a world scared by terror, in our globalized state, the symbolism of rebuilding this development is gone. At this point, while we would all like to see it completed, I know that I don't feel like we are proving anything to the world by building the site
Ok, so lets just leave the site how it is right now and walk away.....
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Old May 19th, 2009, 05:11 AM   #8716
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delete***

Last edited by stewartrama; May 19th, 2009 at 11:46 PM.
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Old May 19th, 2009, 06:52 AM   #8717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stewartrama View Post
I have to say, at this point, who cares about the World Trade Center reconstruction. It's been a decade since the horiffic attacks, and at this time, in a recession, in a world scared by terror, in our globalized state, the symbolism of rebuilding this development is gone. At this point, while we would all like to see it completed, I know that I don't feel like we are proving anything to the world by building the site
Plenty of people still care, obviously.
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Old May 19th, 2009, 02:37 PM   #8718
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Originally Posted by stewartrama View Post
I have to say, at this point, who cares about the World Trade Center reconstruction. It's been a decade since the horiffic attacks, and at this time, in a recession, in a world scared by terror, in our globalized state, the symbolism of rebuilding this development is gone. At this point, while we would all like to see it completed, I know that I don't feel like we are proving anything to the world by building the site
If you noticed that your post was around the 6,000th for this one building, you might realize how moronic that question was. The world will always have Charlie Sierras who make a religion out of being terrified of everything they see. They don't matter. They're just a passing annoyance to the people with the guts to dream and build and live.
People who can only live their lives when times are easy will never be more than a bug fart in the winds of history.
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Old May 19th, 2009, 04:31 PM   #8719
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Originally Posted by S.T.Y AP View Post
very beautiful, very great, very GOOD!
It was about time !!! Finaly a bit of progress!
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Old May 19th, 2009, 09:32 PM   #8720
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Latest WTC Update:
Ask the PA about the construction of the Vehicle Security Center at the WTC. To submit a question, visit www.wtcprogress.com.
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