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Old April 24th, 2010, 08:50 AM   #14021
ramvid01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCrioyo View Post
In my personal opinion. I dont think it was worth restoring this building after the collapse of the World Trade Center. It cost $1.4 Billion to fix this building to the conditions that it is now. They should have demoslished it and build a beautiful tower in its place. Right now it just looks like an outcast in the middle of all those beautiful glass-covered towers with its low height. I mean, i understand its a good historical landmark....but still
Unlikely that anything beautiful would be built there. It would be another glass tower, which get boring pretty quickly.

Also this building is owned by Verizon, and they have tons of phone infrastructure that would probably cost them as much or more to move into another building. For them it was better to renovate the building them spend the time and money to move their equipment and likely inconvenience their customers.
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Old April 24th, 2010, 09:46 AM   #14022
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Looking at the pics a couple of pages back of laying granite facings around the memorial site I feel a little disappointed ........not with this project but the modern technique of cladding something to look like it's so solid from blocks of stone yet really just like a veneer. I understand it's all about cost. Imagine if the ancient pyramids were really just a frame with inch think stone cladding...they would be long gone now....or even some of the monuments in Washington ? Are Lincoln or Jefferson Memorials just clad in veneer marble or are they solid columns like the Parthenon in Greece ? ....when it's finished it will look like it's solid stone.....sometimes maybe better not to see how it's constructed....most people, not like us SSC guys maybe will see it through different eyes....?
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Old April 24th, 2010, 10:59 AM   #14023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbaron_012 View Post
Looking at the pics a couple of pages back of laying granite facings around the memorial site I feel a little disappointed ........not with this project but the modern technique of cladding something to look like it's so solid from blocks of stone yet really just like a veneer. I understand it's all about cost. Imagine if the ancient pyramids were really just a frame with inch think stone cladding...they would be long gone now....or even some of the monuments in Washington ? Are Lincoln or Jefferson Memorials just clad in veneer marble or are they solid columns like the Parthenon in Greece ? ....when it's finished it will look like it's solid stone.....sometimes maybe better not to see how it's constructed....most people, not like us SSC guys maybe will see it through different eyes....?
Are you saying that the whole memorial should have been constructed out of stone from the bedrock up?

Covering the concrete pools with larger blocks of granite just wouldn't make any sense. The end result would look the same.
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Old April 24th, 2010, 07:13 PM   #14024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCrioyo View Post
In my personal opinion. I dont think it was worth restoring this building after the collapse of the World Trade Center. It cost $1.4 Billion to fix this building to the conditions that it is now. They should have demoslished it and build a beautiful tower in its place. Right now it just looks like an outcast in the middle of all those beautiful glass-covered towers with its low height. I mean, i understand its a good historical landmark....but still
I find your definiton of beauty . . . lacking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redbaron_012 View Post
Looking at the pics a couple of pages back of laying granite facings around the memorial site I feel a little disappointed ........not with this project but the modern technique of cladding something to look like it's so solid from blocks of stone yet really just like a veneer. I understand it's all about cost. Imagine if the ancient pyramids were really just a frame with inch think stone cladding...they would be long gone now....or even some of the monuments in Washington ? Are Lincoln or Jefferson Memorials just clad in veneer marble or are they solid columns like the Parthenon in Greece ? ....when it's finished it will look like it's solid stone.....sometimes maybe better not to see how it's constructed....most people, not like us SSC guys maybe will see it through different eyes....?
If the pyramids were built in the same way they probably would be long gone, like there one inch thick polished marble skin. It is considerably cheaper and faster to simply put a stone skin on the pools, but it well also be cheaper and faster to replace damaged stones in the future.

THe Lincoln and Jefferson Memorials have solid stone columns, sitting on concrete foundations.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ction_1916.jpg

Last edited by Zensteeldude; April 24th, 2010 at 07:40 PM.
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Old April 24th, 2010, 09:53 PM   #14025
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Some people just don't see the value of architecture as a living record of the past. The Barclay Vesey Building (1926) is still standing and still a living testament to the architectural beauty of the time. It might not be super tall, and it might not look modern, but it has character and makes NYC better than other Manufactured cities around the world. ElCrioyo, Should they replace Santo Domingo with a new Wal-Mart Mega Church?
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Old April 24th, 2010, 10:25 PM   #14026
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Last edited by boss-ton; April 24th, 2010 at 10:39 PM.
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Old April 24th, 2010, 10:36 PM   #14027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCrioyo View Post
In my personal opinion. I dont think it was worth restoring this building after the collapse of the World Trade Center. It cost $1.4 Billion to fix this building to the conditions that it is now. They should have demoslished it and build a beautiful tower in its place. Right now it just looks like an outcast in the middle of all those beautiful glass-covered towers with its low height. I mean, i understand its a good historical landmark....but still
It might be the Verizon Building's fate to be an outcast. It didn't fit in, even when it was built. Look at it surrounded by a sea of low rise buildings.
image hosted on flickr
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Old April 24th, 2010, 11:20 PM   #14028
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The Verizon building is a beautiful classic skyscraper.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 12:05 AM   #14029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbaron_012 View Post
Looking at the pics a couple of pages back of laying granite facings around the memorial site I feel a little disappointed ........not with this project but the modern technique of cladding something to look like it's so solid from blocks of stone yet really just like a veneer. I understand it's all about cost. Imagine if the ancient pyramids were really just a frame with inch think stone cladding...they would be long gone now....or even some of the monuments in Washington ? Are Lincoln or Jefferson Memorials just clad in veneer marble or are they solid columns like the Parthenon in Greece ? ....when it's finished it will look like it's solid stone.....sometimes maybe better not to see how it's constructed....most people, not like us SSC guys maybe will see it through different eyes....?
I agree with you completely on this. I do think there's more to it and just cost however. We have lost craftsmen in the building trades. Nowadays all we have is laborers even though some of them call themselves tradesmen. None of them are true craftsmen like those who built the great buildings of the past. They don't want to work hard and depend on machinery to do everything for them. This is also demonstrated by how long it takes to build a building today.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 12:41 AM   #14030
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbaron_012 View Post
Looking at the pics a couple of pages back of laying granite facings around the memorial site I feel a little disappointed ........not with this project but the modern technique of cladding something to look like it's so solid from blocks of stone yet really just like a veneer. I understand it's all about cost. Imagine if the ancient pyramids were really just a frame with inch think stone cladding...they would be long gone now....or even some of the monuments in Washington ? Are Lincoln or Jefferson Memorials just clad in veneer marble or are they solid columns like the Parthenon in Greece ? ....when it's finished it will look like it's solid stone.....sometimes maybe better not to see how it's constructed....most people, not like us SSC guys maybe will see it through different eyes....?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Msradell View Post
I agree with you completely on this. I do think there's more to it and just cost however. We have lost craftsmen in the building trades. Nowadays all we have is laborers even though some of them call themselves tradesmen. None of them are true craftsmen like those who built the great buildings of the past. They don't want to work hard and depend on machinery to do everything for them. This is also demonstrated by how long it takes to build a building today.

Two great examples that make of the past, a myth, something to aspire to, a "better time". How original. Two great examples that of what you study in a social-psychology in college.

For redbaron

1) Use of thicker stone means greater weight that the structure needs to bear, one of the MAIN reasons why you use granite as a cladding, instead of making it "out of". Since there is a museum under ground, you have to engineer it to take into consideration the use of the space under it. You can build the fountains out of 1 meter thick led if you wanted to, but then the rooms underneath will be full of columns to be able for the structure to adjust to the unnecessary weight.

2) like you already pointed out, cost is ALSO a factor. There is absolutely no reason why to make a project even more expensive, when the costs are already an issue (since we are talking about billions of dollars).

3) Like other people have already pointed out, using the pyramids as an example is incorrect. Stone was used because it was cheap, available and durable. they did not have reinforced concrete and steel beams. And, like the picture of the pyramid posted above shows, they were cladded with a thin layer of white stone, so it "looked like" they were made out of it (according to your perspective) even though nobody really did, since it would be ridiculous to think that. There are plenty of examples like this from "the better times": the Coliseum in Rome was cladded with a thin layer of travertine, so people didn't see the ugly brown stone it was made out of (just like today it would be unsightly to see plane, bare concrete). Most of that was then taken away and used for Saint Peter's Basilica (talk about being cheap). Same was done for the Augustine Forum, the Senate and almost every building. Usually just the columns and statues were completely made out of it.

Guess that should sum it up on how ridiculous your observation was. It's healthy to criticize, where a critical perspective is needed. Not to just flap your gums.



As for Msradell comment, there is nothing to say. A post in which you criticize how people do their jobs, as " don't want to work hard" and uses the time "it takes to build a building today" as a meter for that criticism, doesn't even deserve the minute it took to write these two phrases. Pathetic.

Last edited by romanamerican; April 25th, 2010 at 12:46 AM.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 01:38 AM   #14031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msradell View Post
I agree with you completely on this. I do think there's more to it and just cost however. We have lost craftsmen in the building trades. Nowadays all we have is laborers even though some of them call themselves tradesmen. None of them are true craftsmen like those who built the great buildings of the past. They don't want to work hard and depend on machinery to do everything for them. This is also demonstrated by how long it takes to build a building today.
I need to introduce you to some friends of mine. (they may not kick your ass). The arts of construction are far from dead, just buried under more public, more visible works.
The men and women who are constructing the stone skin of the Memorial pools and the men and women who well construct the stone and stainless steel lobby of Tower One should never have to look at your ignorant statement.

Last edited by Zensteeldude; April 25th, 2010 at 01:46 AM.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 01:40 AM   #14032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romanamerican View Post
Two great examples that make of the past, a myth, something to aspire to, a "better time". How original. Two great examples that of what you study in a social-psychology in college.

For redbaron

1) Use of thicker stone means greater weight that the structure needs to bear, one of the MAIN reasons why you use granite as a cladding, instead of making it "out of". Since there is a museum under ground, you have to engineer it to take into consideration the use of the space under it. You can build the fountains out of 1 meter thick led if you wanted to, but then the rooms underneath will be full of columns to be able for the structure to adjust to the unnecessary weight.

2) like you already pointed out, cost is ALSO a factor. There is absolutely no reason why to make a project even more expensive, when the costs are already an issue (since we are talking about billions of dollars).

3) Like other people have already pointed out, using the pyramids as an example is incorrect. Stone was used because it was cheap, available and durable. they did not have reinforced concrete and steel beams. And, like the picture of the pyramid posted above shows, they were cladded with a thin layer of white stone, so it "looked like" they were made out of it (according to your perspective) even though nobody really did, since it would be ridiculous to think that. There are plenty of examples like this from "the better times": the Coliseum in Rome was cladded with a thin layer of travertine, so people didn't see the ugly brown stone it was made out of (just like today it would be unsightly to see plane, bare concrete). Most of that was then taken away and used for Saint Peter's Basilica (talk about being cheap). Same was done for the Augustine Forum, the Senate and almost every building. Usually just the columns and statues were completely made out of it.

Guess that should sum it up on how ridiculous your observation was. It's healthy to criticize, where a critical perspective is needed. Not to just flap your gums.



As for Msradell comment, there is nothing to say. A post in which you criticize how people do their jobs, as " don't want to work hard" and uses the time "it takes to build a building today" as a meter for that criticism, doesn't even deserve the minute it took to write these two phrases. Pathetic.
You tell 'em !!!!!!!
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Old April 25th, 2010, 09:03 AM   #14033
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Anyone who thinks that craftsmen don't exist any more needs to read this article about the restoration of the Verizon building that some here are so rashly dismissing:

A Landmark Under the Knife (Actually, the Chisel); Artisans in Stone and Bronze Remake a Building Scarred on 9/11
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Old April 25th, 2010, 10:31 AM   #14034
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I'm still hoping they are hiding the real hight, like it was a secret for a Chrysler bld. I know it's not possible nowadays, but I would like so badly for NYC to have the tallest building in the world once again ...
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Old April 25th, 2010, 11:11 AM   #14035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simvlasky View Post
I'm still hoping they are hiding the real hight, like it was a secret for a Chrysler bld. I know it's not possible nowadays, but I would like so badly for NYC to have the tallest building in the world once again ...
Very unlikely, as the height has quite a bit of sentimental value attached to it.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 11:15 AM   #14036
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Very unlikely, as the height has quite a bit of sentimental value attached to it.
Maybe they could make the roof 1776 and the antenna 2001
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Old April 25th, 2010, 11:52 AM   #14037
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Maybe they could make the roof 1776 and the antenna 2001
Ha! That's exactly what I said, like 300 pages or so ago. Then someone else said it a bit later. But I guess it just made to much sense for anybody too actually do it.
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Last edited by Taiki24; April 25th, 2010 at 11:53 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old April 25th, 2010, 07:52 PM   #14038
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Quote:
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Maybe they could make the roof 1776 and the antenna 2001
What would the symbolism of that be? It sounds like an epitaph on a tombstone: USA 1776 - 2001.

And for better or worse, they can't just make the building taller halfway through. The Burj Khalifa was a very different design. The slope of the interlocking triangles has already been established by the base and the first four regular floors.
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Old April 25th, 2010, 09:40 PM   #14039
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A screenshot from Higashi no Eden Movie I: The King of Eden
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higashi_no_Eden

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Old April 25th, 2010, 10:25 PM   #14040
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Wow! I always love it when Japanese animators do New York, and they did it dead-on this time!
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