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Old December 31st, 2012, 07:09 AM   #2741
yyzer
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Originally Posted by EK413 View Post
I guess I've asked a difficult question...
Well, the Air Agreement press release doesn't specify frequencies, does it?
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Old December 31st, 2012, 07:13 AM   #2742
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I would like to see a Japanese carrier with scheduled flights to YYZ - either JAL or ANA - this is the big missing link to Asia from YYZ imo, and with over 400 Japanese companies, from auto manufacturers to insurance companies to banks, with their Canadian head offices in southern Ontario, plus the tourist lure of Niagara Falls, it's just unbelievable that we don't have one of them (yet)...
I would smother kittens to get LX at YYZ.

Ok.. That's a bit extreme, but I would LOVE to have that airline in Toronto, yet the chances are very slim.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 07:17 AM   #2743
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But seriously now, airlines I can see in Toronto and wonder why they aren't here already:

Asiana
Either JAL or ANA
Qatar
Virgin Atlantic
Air China
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Old December 31st, 2012, 07:27 AM   #2744
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Originally Posted by Filip View Post
But seriously now, airlines I can see in Toronto and wonder why they aren't here already:

Asiana
Either JAL or ANA
Qatar
Virgin Atlantic
Air China
I think Air Canada's huge dominance at YYZ probably plays a role in why there are not many foreign carriers in addition to heavy landing fees/taxation. For example with Korean Air and Air Canada both serving the Toronto-Seoul route, it does not leave much room for a third carrier to serve that route. Same thing with Air China since you have Hainan Airlines and Air Canada serving the Toronto-Beijing route.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 07:30 AM   #2745
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I think Air Canada's huge dominance at YYZ probably plays a role in why there are not many foreign carriers in addition to heavy landing fees/taxation. For example with Korean Air and Air Canada both serving the Toronto-Seoul route, it does not leave much room for a third carrier to serve that route. Same thing with Air China since you have Hainan Airlines and Air Canada serving the Toronto-Beijing route.
Toronto is about to have the second largest amount of foreign carriers in Canada/USA after NYC.

I think it's not Air Canada and the landing fees preventing new airlines. They're coming just fine.

2012-2013 we'll have added Ethiopian, Philippines, Aeroflot, Egyptair and Saudia. Not bad.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 07:37 AM   #2746
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Toronto is about to have the second largest amount of foreign carriers in Canada/USA after NYC.

I think it's not Air Canada and the landing fees preventing new airlines. They're coming just fine.

2012-2013 we'll have added Ethiopian, Philippines, Aeroflot, Egyptair and Saudia. Not bad.
Yeah that's great and all but given that both Ethiopian and Egyptair are Star Alliance members what are the odds that they would have service to Toronto at all if it was not for Air Canada? Also given that Air Canada itself does not have direct flights to either the Philippines or Saudi Arabia it would probably make more sense for those carriers to start up service to YYZ since there would be little to no competition on those routes.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 07:46 AM   #2747
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Correct. Plus, Philippine Airlines has not operated a Manila to the eastern seaboard of Canada and the US for the past fifteen years, so a MNL-YYZ service is a pleasant comeback. Perhaps it is one of the longest nonstop destinations served from YYZ... what do you think?
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Old December 31st, 2012, 08:16 AM   #2748
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No doubt PR can fill its YYZ-MNL flights, but what's the business rationale behind that route? I don't think there are many high-yield business connections between the two cities.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 08:53 AM   #2749
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That route is specifically made as a prelude to PAL's return to the east coast of the US, where thousands of Filipinos reside. Prior to PAL's return to YYZ, travelers had to go through either DTW or JFK (with DL), YVR, SFO, or LAX (via another airline to PR), or through other destinations just to reach Manila. In fact, (hopefully someone can help me out on this), Filipino Canadians are among the largest minority groups in Canada, with thousands of them residing in Vancouver, Toronto, and other large cities in the country. It is a matter of both convenience and beefing up business ties between Canada and the Philippines, in which Manila is already experiencing rapid economic growth (one of the best in Asia in terms of GDP growth, as well as increased investor confidence in the country).
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Old December 31st, 2012, 11:27 AM   #2750
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hot off the press....SV adding YYZ - 3rd quarter 2013 could mean as early as July...looks like with 777-200s...

Saudia plans flights to Toronto, LA


JEDDAH: ARAB NEWS

Monday 31 December 2012
Last Update 31 December 2012 2:37 am

Saudi Arabian Airlines will operate two new flights to Toronto and Los Angeles, it was announced yesterday. Prince Fahd bin Abdullah, president of the General Authority of Civil Aviation and chairman of Saudia’s board of directors, has approved the plan. “We’ll operate flights to the Canadian city in the third quarter of 2013 and Los Angeles in the second quarter of 2014,” said Khaled Al-Molhem, director general of the airline. Saudia currently operates flights to the US cities of Washington and New York.
He said Saudia would receive four out of 20 Boeing 777-300ER aircraft by the end of 2013. “We’ll use this aircraft for our Los Angeles flights,” he said while highlighting the plane’s advanced features enhancing passenger comfort.
He said the new flights would serve Saudi scholarship students in Canada and the US apart from other passengers. From April 2013, Saudia will operate 14 flights weekly to Washington and New York, using larger aircraft. Al-Molhem disclosed plans to operate 11 flights weekly to Paris (seven from Jeddah and four from Riyadh) using B777-200 aircraft, and 14 flights to Geneva (seven each from Jeddah and Riyadh) from the peak of summer.
He said the airline’s huge investment on aircraft and IT infrastructure had yielded fruits in terms of increase in number of passengers and record rise in revenues in 2012.

http://www.arabnews.com/saudia-plans-flights-toronto-la
Un-frickin'-believable! 2013 is shaping up to be an awesome year at YYZ!
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Old December 31st, 2012, 11:31 AM   #2751
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Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams View Post
That route is specifically made as a prelude to PAL's return to the east coast of the US, where thousands of Filipinos reside. Prior to PAL's return to YYZ, travelers had to go through either DTW or JFK (with DL), YVR, SFO, or LAX (via another airline to PR), or through other destinations just to reach Manila. In fact, (hopefully someone can help me out on this), Filipino Canadians are among the largest minority groups in Canada, with thousands of them residing in Vancouver, Toronto, and other large cities in the country. It is a matter of both convenience and beefing up business ties between Canada and the Philippines, in which Manila is already experiencing rapid economic growth (one of the best in Asia in terms of GDP growth, as well as increased investor confidence in the country).
Canada is one of the largest source markets for tourism/family visits to the Philippines, and Toronto/Southern Ontarion has an enormous Filipino expat population. Definitely the largest in Canada and easily in the top 3 in NA. The flights are definitely full, but I agree, it is a prelude to serving the US east coast. Either way, I think PR is here to stay.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 11:39 AM   #2752
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Originally Posted by Filip View Post
But seriously now, airlines I can see in Toronto and wonder why they aren't here already:

Asiana
Either JAL or ANA
Qatar
Virgin Atlantic
Air China
Couldn't agree more. Air China was supposed to start in 2009 but didn't because of the economic meltdown. That left the door open for Hainan. Virgin flew to LGW (stupid in my opinion) until 9/11 then pulled out all together. Why they chose YVR over YYZ is a little baffling considering British tourism to Vancouver is down and total capacity to London is down from YVR. A report from VS stated they didn't hit their target to YVR last year but will be sticking with it again this year to see what happens.

Qatar - again, a little baffling considering the enormous growth to the middle east and the enormous Southeast Asian population in the GTA. I think Qatar tried to build some goodwill with the Canadian government by flying to YUL, in hopes of obtaining more landing slots at YYZ. Not sure how well that strategy is paying off considering YUL's weak international pax growth this year.

Finally, I would love to see JAL or ANA here. I could see it happen with the 787's for sure, so we'll just have to wait and see for that one.

And you're right, YYZ is about to have the second most foreign carriers in NA, plus it's the only other airport in NA along with JFK to serve all six inhabited continents. AC's dominance at YYZ is certainly not unusually blocking any foreign carriers from entering likely the fastest growing metropolitan region in NA.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 05:47 PM   #2753
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Really amazing growth at YYZ after shedding a few airlines in the past few years.

I wonder why LAN failed so miserably? I still don't know why they HAD to route through NYC. They could not compete with direct AC service on this route. Rumours were of TAM starting YYZ - GRU but nothing happened with that. Also, wasn't Avianca supposed to start BOG - YYZ?
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Old December 31st, 2012, 05:55 PM   #2754
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Perhaps because LAN at the time has had a modified version of either their B763 or A343 that required to make a stopover somewhere to complete the long journey. Or probably because the routing was done poorly as it had a notion that passengers bound for JFK would be much more than those going all the way to YYZ. I think if LAN is to operate to YYZ again, it can use its B787s. As for the other airlines, it could be attributed to either aircraft shortage or the economic doldrums in their home countries that prevent them from mounting new flights.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 08:27 PM   #2755
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Quote:
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Really amazing growth at YYZ after shedding a few airlines in the past few years.

I wonder why LAN failed so miserably? I still don't know why they HAD to route through NYC. They could not compete with direct AC service on this route. Rumours were of TAM starting YYZ - GRU but nothing happened with that. Also, wasn't Avianca supposed to start BOG - YYZ?
I think you will see Avianca here sooner, rather than later, but I think they don't have enough planes to start any new longhaul routes just yet...

You are correct about LAN that the 'tag' beyond NYC was a mistake, and caused the route to lose money..

Two more rumours I just heard today from a YYZ insider, Aeromexico are eager to re-start their YYZ ops, and .... - this one's a bit wild - that Hawaiian Airlines have expressed an interest in YYZ ....these are just rumours, and are not confirmed....
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Old December 31st, 2012, 08:31 PM   #2756
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If HA indeed starts flights to YYZ, then it will be the only -- if not the first -- nonstop service between HNL and Toronto. Recently, it started daily nonstop service to JFK, and it is a popular alternative to UA's service to EWR.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 08:40 PM   #2757
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Really amazing growth at YYZ after shedding a few airlines in the past few years.

I wonder why LAN failed so miserably? I still don't know why they HAD to route through NYC. They could not compete with direct AC service on this route. Rumours were of TAM starting YYZ - GRU but nothing happened with that. Also, wasn't Avianca supposed to start BOG - YYZ?
I would probably say it's probably because of competition with Air Canada on that route, plus the Latin American community in Canada is also relatively small in comparison with the US so it does not leave much room for other cariers to serve the market. That being said though I can see Aeromexico starting service to Toronto and even Vancouver in addition to Montreal, since Mexicana has served those two cities before it's demise and I think it is an underserved market especially considering that Mexico is one of the most visited tourism destinations for Canadians.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 09:34 PM   #2758
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I would probably say it's probably because of competition with Air Canada on that route, plus the Latin American community in Canada is also relatively small in comparison with the US so it does not leave much room for other cariers to serve the market. That being said though I can see Aeromexico starting service to Toronto and even Vancouver in addition to Montreal, since Mexicana has served those two cities before it's demise and I think it is an underserved market especially considering that Mexico is one of the most visited tourism destinations for Canadians.
The Chilean community in Toronto is quite large. Now, Toronto has less central American immigrants than the USA, but quite a bit from Argentina, Chile, Colombia and Brazil. It is no surprise that Toronto used to be quite well served in the 90s, by the likes of VASP, VARIG, LAN, Aerolineas Argentinas, Avianca, Conviasa..

Hawaiian would be a great airline to have!
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Old December 31st, 2012, 10:17 PM   #2759
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That route is specifically made as a prelude to PAL's return to the east coast of the US, where thousands of Filipinos reside. Prior to PAL's return to YYZ, travelers had to go through either DTW or JFK (with DL), YVR, SFO, or LAX (via another airline to PR), or through other destinations just to reach Manila. In fact, (hopefully someone can help me out on this), Filipino Canadians are among the largest minority groups in Canada, with thousands of them residing in Vancouver, Toronto, and other large cities in the country. It is a matter of both convenience and beefing up business ties between Canada and the Philippines, in which Manila is already experiencing rapid economic growth (one of the best in Asia in terms of GDP growth, as well as increased investor confidence in the country).
All this is true, but often routes with full load are unprofitable if yields are too low. For instance Air India's Toronto route was unprofitable even though it is (like PR) guaranteed to fill seats. Hopefully there are enough business and cargo traffic on this route to sustain it into the future.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 10:30 PM   #2760
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That has been my biggest question for airline operations: how can countries, like the Philippines, establish a stable, of not growing, business and cargo traffic to allow even more carriers to operate to and from the country, especially with a long flight to YYZ?
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