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Old September 7th, 2007, 05:57 PM   #321
yyzer
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Rumours have it JetBlue is starting a Toronto route by the end of 2007.
I heard that rumour too....it just occurred to me that the infield terminal would be a great gating area for a discount carrier......
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Old September 7th, 2007, 06:11 PM   #322
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Filip, thanks for that information. I also just read it on airliners.net.

So with all of these carriers starting service to YYZ, I must pose this question to people. How is it that for such an expensive airport are all of these carriers starting service? Could it be plausible that the airport is not at all as expensive as was reported in the media?

I have seen countless people posting articles about $10,000 to land a 747 but the cost for the 747 is the total fee that is paid which include de-icing , terminal charges, etc.

Oh well, must be something that is making them come here. Wonder what it is? Anyone know (non rhetorical question)? LOL.
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Old September 7th, 2007, 06:53 PM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TObermuda37 View Post
Filip, thanks for that information. I also just read it on airliners.net.

So with all of these carriers starting service to YYZ, I must pose this question to people. How is it that for such an expensive airport are all of these carriers starting service? Could it be plausible that the airport is not at all as expensive as was reported in the media?

I have seen countless people posting articles about $10,000 to land a 747 but the cost for the 747 is the total fee that is paid which include de-icing , terminal charges, etc.

Oh well, must be something that is making them come here. Wonder what it is? Anyone know (non rhetorical question)? LOL.
I think it's mentioned in one of the articles that got posted here a few months ago, but YYZ has been positioning itself to capture the market of international travellers who do not want the hassle of having to travel through the US in order to reach their destination. The airlines are realizing the inconvenience as well and have begun offering the routes. Even though the landing fees may be high, if there is a definite demand for it, then they will accept the costs. Plus Toronto is a very multicultural city, it would only make sense that as the ethnic populations grew in size that more direct flights "home" would become available. The existing airlines can only do so much, so it's up to new carriers to pick up the slack somewhat.
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Old September 7th, 2007, 07:02 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TObermuda37 View Post
Filip, thanks for that information. I also just read it on airliners.net.

So with all of these carriers starting service to YYZ, I must pose this question to people. How is it that for such an expensive airport are all of these carriers starting service? Could it be plausible that the airport is not at all as expensive as was reported in the media?

I have seen countless people posting articles about $10,000 to land a 747 but the cost for the 747 is the total fee that is paid which include de-icing , terminal charges, etc.

Oh well, must be something that is making them come here. Wonder what it is? Anyone know (non rhetorical question)? LOL.
747s don't frequent Toronto to start. The short-haul flights tend to use regional aircraft, so landing costs would be cheaper. Europe is now re-studying the emissions problem from aircraft, and are attempting to slap charges on travelers to make the point clear. Hence, would a shift to smaller jets be a good thing for Toronto?

Nevertheless, these media reports are based on actual studies and surveys, and when the results come out, it's hard to fake the coverage when Toronto comes out at the top of the cost list.
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Old September 7th, 2007, 08:34 PM   #325
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Korean Air does a 747. Air France did a 747 over the summer (loads are not that heavy in the Winter to require one). KLM flies in their 747's but subs other aircraft when warranted and this summer there were additional services from them. Lufthansa did a 747 also during the summer. So, there must be enough business to generate these into Toronto. As you said, many airlines are looking at more cost effective aircraft which burn less fuel and go longer distances which generate more money for the bottom line.

For the most expensive airport in the world, I find it hard to understand why Lufthansa would be launching a new non stop to Dusseldorf (May 08), Emirates is coming to Toronto effective December 07, Jet Airways just launched their services as of September 07 and will go daily in December 07. Now, Jet Blue who is a cost concious low cost carrier, whom everyone speculated would never arrive here due to the high costs landing at Pearson is speculated to commence service in December 07. Cathay is rumoure3d to go double daily later on this year, Ethopian wants to start new services as soon as the negotians are completed between Canada and Ethopia. Thy has always stated their desire to start services but cannot due to a lack of a treaty between Canada and Turkey. Regardless of what was quoted, there must be some driving force to attract these airlines and services. If the cost was so prohibitive, why launch new services?

Not everything in the media is always correct so I take things with a grain of salt when it comes to that.

I thank you for taking the time to put together your responce HK but still, as I said, not everything in the media is correct. This is shown since I was living in Toronto during the time of SARS and as far as all of the media reports suggested and reported, many people in the city were wearing masks on the public transit and we were supposed to be severly infected to such an extent many people were terrified to come to the city. Conventions were being cancelled and there was a lot of money that was lost.
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Old September 7th, 2007, 09:19 PM   #326
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Although the media may play the hype and overblow things, the surveys used to rank airport costs did put Toronto as the most expensive in the world. In fact, the number of 747s that visit Toronto is fairly seasonal. Furthermore, Toronto air fares are generally more expensive than flying out of New York despite the fact that distances to Asia and Europe are similar.

In the end, consumers suffer. Airlines may continue to serve and expand if they can force the passenger to pay more, and at this point there isn't much choice besides paying another huge fare to fly to New York, then switch airports to connect to the international flight. However, despite these expansions, Toronto's international connectivity isn't that large for a city of its size. Emirates has flown to New York for a while now, and they have been expanding for quite some time already before they finally decided to pick Toronto.

What if landing fees were lowered? That may prompt an even more aggressive expansion. However, that may not be measurable (ie. opportunity cost). Thus, the mere fact that some airlines are expanding doesn't mean the high landing fees are acceptable. The IATA has been quite clear in condemning GTAA management practices and the government's handling of their charges.

http://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/2005-11-16-01
http://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/2004-08-03-01
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Old September 7th, 2007, 09:53 PM   #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Although the media may play the hype and overblow things, the surveys used to rank airport costs did put Toronto as the most expensive in the world. In fact, the number of 747s that visit Toronto is fairly seasonal. Furthermore, Toronto air fares are generally more expensive than flying out of New York despite the fact that distances to Asia and Europe are similar.

In the end, consumers suffer. Airlines may continue to serve and expand if they can force the passenger to pay more, and at this point there isn't much choice besides paying another huge fare to fly to New York, then switch airports to connect to the international flight. However, despite these expansions, Toronto's international connectivity isn't that large for a city of its size. Emirates has flown to New York for a while now, and they have been expanding for quite some time already before they finally decided to pick Toronto.

What if landing fees were lowered? That may prompt an even more aggressive expansion. However, that may not be measurable (ie. opportunity cost). Thus, the mere fact that some airlines are expanding doesn't mean the high landing fees are acceptable. The IATA has been quite clear in condemning GTAA management practices and the government's handling of their charges.

http://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/2005-11-16-01
http://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/2004-08-03-01
Thanks for the links but overall Toronto is not New York and the population base plus business' based in the city are nowhere near what NYC has to offer.

For a city the size of Toronto, Houston is comparable. Houston does not have anywhere near the links that Toronto has.

Toronto does not have ANZ, Thai, Singapore and all the other airlines flying into it. If they did, the fares would certainly be more competitive but obviously there is something there to attract the airlines because they feel they can do it profitably.

Most assuredly, I can tell you it was cheaper for me to fly from Bermuda via Toronto on AC to London UK. Also, AC are attracting enough people from the US to transfer in Toronto to overseas flights as this is the preferred method of many of my colleagues here but then again that is the basic method of most airlines because it is cheaper for me to go through the US to Toronto from here than it is to take a direct BDA-YYZ flight on AC.

Anyhow, I agree to disagree. I appreciate your postings and once I get the updated figures from the GTAA, I hope to be able to post some info for everyone.

Cheers.
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Old September 8th, 2007, 12:23 AM   #328
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I tend to agree with TOBermuda. The media has always and will always put a negative spin on anything it can get its hands on. The reason Emirates has delayed so long in coming to Toronto (which is to start October 07), is because they wanted to go daily, and as of now the bilateral agreement between Canada and the UAE only allows 6 flights per week, 3 of which were eaten up by Etihad. I've heard this for some time now and I'm almost 100% sure that when Canada and the UAE sign an open skies agreement, both Emirates and Etihad will be going daily. Don't forget about Icelandair in 08 and I've also heard rumors about Egyptair for some time now as well.

The reality is that NYC is not a comparable market, but an even greater reality is that Toronto is still the second largest international port of entry into N.A. for air travel, having passed Miami and LAX. The future can only get brighter from here for YYZ, I think.
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Old September 8th, 2007, 01:02 AM   #329
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The Canadian gov't doesn't allow SIA to serve YYZ. SIA actually wants to serve YYZ. They currently only serve YVR 3x weekly and they want to upgrade that to daily too, but again Canadian gov't doesn't allow.
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Old September 8th, 2007, 01:48 AM   #330
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Here's the Transport Canada press release regarding the new Blue Sky agreement with New Zealand....looks pretty unrestricted, well done!

For release September 7, 2007

CANADA REACHES BLUE SKY AGREEMENT
WITH NEW ZEALAND


OTTAWA — An Open Skies air transport agreement between Canada and New Zealand was announced today by the Honourable Lawrence Cannon, Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, and the Honourable David Emerson, Minister of International Trade.

"I am pleased with the new air transport agreement with New Zealand, which is in line with Canada's Blue Sky international air transportation policy," said Minister Cannon. "This agreement marks another step forward in providing a greater range of options for Canadian travellers, shippers and businesses."

The new agreement allows any number of air carriers from either country to operate passenger and all-cargo scheduled air services as frequently as desired, to and from any point in either country's territory. Air carriers will also be able to pick up traffic in each other's territory and continue to a third country as part of a service to or from their home territory.

The agreement also provides for enhanced all-cargo rights, allowing stand-alone cargo services between each other's territory and third countries, and includes a fully flexible tariff regime.

"Canada is in tune with the needs of business and is taking action to address the evolving nature of air carrier services," said Minister Emerson. "Canada's new air agreement with New Zealand will improve access for business travellers, support more flexible air services and help increase the trade potential between our two countries."

Once ratified, the new air transport agreement between the two countries will replace the 1985 agreement currently in force.
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Old September 8th, 2007, 01:53 AM   #331
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Quote:
The Canadian gov't doesn't allow SIA to serve YYZ. SIA actually wants to serve YYZ. They currently only serve YVR 3x weekly and they want to upgrade that to daily too, but again Canadian gov't doesn't allow.
I believe Canada is meeting with Singapore this fall....lets hope things go smoothly, this agreement is probably the most politically charged of all, given the past problems with SQ access to YYZ.

The current government is doing a pretty good job in catching up to market realities, imo....they have done a lot in the last 12 months...if they can pull off an open skies agreement with the EU, that will also be major.

And lets see Qatar at YYZ!
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Old September 8th, 2007, 03:59 AM   #332
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Qatar would be nice...
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Old September 8th, 2007, 07:24 AM   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TObermuda37 View Post
Thanks for the links but overall Toronto is not New York and the population base plus business' based in the city are nowhere near what NYC has to offer.

For a city the size of Toronto, Houston is comparable. Houston does not have anywhere near the links that Toronto has.

Toronto does not have ANZ, Thai, Singapore and all the other airlines flying into it. If they did, the fares would certainly be more competitive but obviously there is something there to attract the airlines because they feel they can do it profitably.

Most assuredly, I can tell you it was cheaper for me to fly from Bermuda via Toronto on AC to London UK. Also, AC are attracting enough people from the US to transfer in Toronto to overseas flights as this is the preferred method of many of my colleagues here but then again that is the basic method of most airlines because it is cheaper for me to go through the US to Toronto from here than it is to take a direct BDA-YYZ flight on AC.

Anyhow, I agree to disagree. I appreciate your postings and once I get the updated figures from the GTAA, I hope to be able to post some info for everyone.

Cheers.
While I don't expect Toronto to offer the same level of connectivity as a far more important business centre such as New York, for a city of its size, the connectivity options are rather poor. The push towards Asia has taken off and stuttered. While routes to China enjoy growth, other routes such as Korea and India had to be dropped. The push towards Europe is hampered by a lack of competition. There's AC, BA, and a few charter/low-cost carriers going to London. The selection isn't too great. Then further beyond into the continent, the frequencies dwindle. Perhaps the local market is not big enough to support these direct connections, which would mean passengers will likely choose a more popular and cheaper trunk route, such as to New York, then transfer again to Canada.

Toronto's location makes it a decent transit location for the West Coast and Midwest. In fact, Toronto's market can be much larger and reach into the US but because of expensive airfares, it's still not economical to go through Canada - even during the days when the CAD$ was low. On the other hand, many secondary American cities do have direct flights to Europe due to their airline hub setup. However, there doesn't seem to be much of a marketing push for Canadian airlines in general to use Canadian cities as transfer hubs. To Europe, it doesn't make much sense when low-season fares to London from New York start from US$199 each way on a major traditional airline. In Canada, that may get a seat on a low-cost carrier with only the most basic amenities. To Asia, maybe there is a case for Toronto, but Vancouver has a much better connectivity and frequency offering for both AC and Asian carriers.

But then, even if the airfares can be rationalized, the taxes are much higher going through Toronto than through an American airport. It's quite appalling when a transborder flight can incur over CAD$100 in taxes and fees.
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Old September 8th, 2007, 07:10 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
low-season fares to London from New York start from US$199 each way on a major traditional airline.
You can get YYZ-LHR $149 each way, plus taxes on AC. Same with BA.
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Old September 8th, 2007, 07:56 PM   #335
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You can get YYZ-LHR $149 each way, plus taxes on AC. Same with BA.
Is that an advertised special? AC shows 418 roundtrip + taxes cheapest in October, which is historically cheap. Fees and surcharges total 317.87, including a 164 fuel surcharge. Total is CAD 735.

BA JFK-LHR is on sale at USD 188 and total comes to USD 539.36, including 306 in fees and surcharges.

Quite a large difference.
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Old September 8th, 2007, 08:16 PM   #336
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Yes, that is a special discounted fare. Right now I don't think this discounted fare is available, usually once a week every month or so...
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Old September 8th, 2007, 08:17 PM   #337
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One of my aunt's friends is a pilot for Air Canada and says that there will be Sydney - Toronto flights on the new Boeing 777 within the next year. Anyone have any information on this?
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Old September 8th, 2007, 08:19 PM   #338
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One of my aunt's friends is a pilot for Air Canada and said that there are going to be Sydney - Toronto flights within the next year. Anyone have any information on this?
Something went wrong with the talks to permit this route.. Apparently it was to be a Toronto-Los Angeles-Sydney run by Air Canada. Regardless, Qantas has a bigger international fleet and it should be the one sacrificing its metal to YYZ, not AC.
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Old September 8th, 2007, 08:21 PM   #339
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I think there are already YYZ-LAX-SYD routes.
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Old September 8th, 2007, 08:55 PM   #340
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I think there are already YYZ-LAX-SYD routes.
You'd have to transfer planes - there are no "direct" lines per se (being that from Toronto you'd get to Sydney without switching planes)
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