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Old February 14th, 2015, 04:21 PM   #3901
Dam
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Looking at population alone doesn't always give one a clear indication of a city's status, reach, make up, or influence. Look at Amsterdam. It only has 2 million in its metro but it's a big international centre and one of Europe's main gateway cities.
True... But saying Amsterdam has a metro of only 2 million is somewhat misleading, the Randstad (area including Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, Utrecht) has 7 million inhabitants. And Schiphol is quite close to any city in the Randstad and even beyond.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 05:56 PM   #3902
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YYZ is actually in Mississauga/Peel Region, and it also has pull in the GTA, and Hamilton area.

I honestly think YYZ is an underachiever compared to the potential it has. This should be a 50 million pax airport at bare minimum.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 09:28 PM   #3903
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YYZ is actually in Mississauga/Peel Region, and it also has pull in the GTA, and Hamilton area.

I honestly think YYZ is an underachiever compared to the potential it has. This should be a 50 million pax airport at bare minimum.
It will hit 50 million. To say it's an underachiever ignores the tight restrictions on foreign carriers that surround Canadian aviation. Many of the European hubs in the past decade or more years have benefited dramatically from low cost carriers, something which has only been introduced to Canada in a real way last year with Rouge.

Don't forget, last year Pearson was ranked as the #1 airport in NA for connectivity growth and something like 7th in the world. Air Canada's turnaround in recent years will continue to fuel Pearson's growth.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 10:35 PM   #3904
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You're excusing poor industrial policy in this country when we really should be hopping mad that incompetence higher up is costing Pearson and Toronto dearly. Airports are huge generators of growth for an economy and we've been robbed of that wealth.

When you compare Canadian airports with those everywhere else in the OECD (western European countries, the US, Australia) our low PAX numbers stick out like a sore thumb. We're the only country in the West that's managed to screw this up. It's not Pearson's fault but sugar coating things helps no one.

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Originally Posted by noir-dresses View Post
YYZ is actually in Mississauga/Peel Region, and it also has pull in the GTA, and Hamilton area.

I honestly think YYZ is an underachiever compared to the potential it has. This should be a 50 million pax airport at bare minimum.
Agree. The feds treat Canadian airports like their own private cash machine rather than an engine of growth. Pearson does seem like it's starting to prosper despite the noose tied around its neck but is still far from what it should be.

That Pearson sees the same number of passengers as Sydney, a far smaller market, speaks volumes. This is the principal international airport for about 10 million people in southern Ontario. You'd expect it to see 60 million passengers annually.
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Last edited by isaidso; February 14th, 2015 at 10:42 PM.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 10:43 PM   #3905
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True... But saying Amsterdam has a metro of only 2 million is somewhat misleading, the Randstad (area including Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, Utrecht) has 7 million inhabitants. And Schiphol is quite close to any city in the Randstad and even beyond.
Ok, but the point stands.
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Old February 14th, 2015, 11:46 PM   #3906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Agree. The feds treat Canadian airports like their own private cash machine rather than an engine of growth. Pearson does seem like it's starting to prosper despite the noose tied around its neck but is still far from what it should be.

That Pearson sees the same number of passengers as Sydney, a far smaller market, speaks volumes. This is the principal international airport for about 10 million people in southern Ontario. You'd expect it to see 60 million passengers annually.
Since many people travelling to/from Toronto use Buffalo's airport (since it tends to have lower airfare on average), I am sure that would partially explain Toronto's low numbers. Anyways even if the Canadian government loosened it's taxes and restrictions on airliners, I think the average ticket costs will still be higher on average simply because you are dealing with a much smaller market compared with other western countries.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 02:23 AM   #3907
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Since many people travelling to/from Toronto use Buffalo's airport (since it tends to have lower airfare on average), I am sure that would partially explain Toronto's low numbers. Anyways even if the Canadian government loosened it's taxes and restrictions on airliners, I think the average ticket costs will still be higher on average simply because you are dealing with a much smaller market compared with other western countries.

That is somewhat true. I often come across BUF luggage sticker on my street.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 03:28 AM   #3908
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Don't forget, last year Pearson was ranked as the #1 airport in NA for connectivity growth and something like 7th in the world. Air Canada's turnaround in recent years will continue to fuel Pearson's growth.

Hmm I think Toronto Pearson is not taking the adventage of the new (now old) terminal 1 to do better as it should. I went trough JFK to get to NCE, and it was just a mess. They buss you around and than you have to fly out of some fifty year old terminal. Also the regional DELTA connections don't seem to be reliable. Considering all this, I think there is a lot more potential for Toronto Pearson.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 04:14 AM   #3909
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How are they going to manage this? That will be 7 weekly flights to Canada as of May 23rd, then 8 weekly from late June... With one plane? Unless they're getting another one before then.
That is just pushing an envelope even with two airframes. They would have to operate all those cities without having or running into any technical issues. An older 767s do not help either. If I were to travel in that part of the World, I would stick with the legacy one stop options.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 08:04 AM   #3910
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A lot of good points, I totally forgot about the red tape that keeps foreign airlines from coming in more frequently.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 09:40 AM   #3911
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A lot of good points, I totally forgot about the red tape that keeps foreign airlines from coming in more frequently.
Yep, lots of politics involved. Many of us remember the dispute between Canada and the UAE over the former's refusal to grant Emirates more landing rights. Stephen Harper being Stephen Harper, he *had* to turn an otherwise minor commercial dispute into a full-blown international incident.

While we should welcome the Gulf carriers to Canada, allowing unlimited access is a bad idea. It *is* in Canada's national interest to have a major global airline which serves all of the world's major cities. It *is* in YYZ's interest to host a major global airline's hub, to drive transit traffic. But neither should Air Canada be coddled and shielded from competition, especially since it's a fully private company.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 09:59 AM   #3912
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I don't think it is red tape that is preventing these carriers from coming, but the high costs of operating out of Pearson. Is it worth the opportunity cost of sending a widebody there with low profit margins? Similarly, are customers willing to pay a huge premium when they can head to Buffalo and access a wide range of US carriers at a lower cost?
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Old February 15th, 2015, 10:23 AM   #3913
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I don't think it is red tape that is preventing these carriers from coming, but the high costs of operating out of Pearson. Is it worth the opportunity cost of sending a widebody there with low profit margins? Similarly, are customers willing to pay a huge premium when they can head to Buffalo and access a wide range of US carriers at a lower cost?
The government and airport authority are working to reduce landing fees. But this is Canada, so changes must happen slowly.

Low oil prices and the low Canadian dollar help in this aspect. Suddenly the landing fees have dramatically shrunk from the perspective of foreign carriers. Air Canada's cost base has also fallen (against its US competitors), which assists its new strategy for sixth freedom traffic. And the decline in Canada-to-US tourism will, in any case, lead to fewer Canadians at BUF. Maybe they will be instead flying from YYZ to Mexico next winter.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 11:08 AM   #3914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
You're excusing poor industrial policy in this country when we really should be hopping mad that incompetence higher up is costing Pearson and Toronto dearly. Airports are huge generators of growth for an economy and we've been robbed of that wealth.
Dang... that is my philosophy too. And Pearson is not the only one that is having managerial issues; Manila has a worse problem where, you only have two intersecting runways at peak capacity of 44 flights per hour, and now that its airport management wants to build a fifth terminal "to accommodate more demand". If you add another terminal, you're adding more gates, which exacerbates the congestion problem further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Agree. The feds treat Canadian airports like their own private cash machine rather than an engine of growth. Pearson does seem like it's starting to prosper despite the noose tied around its neck but is still far from what it should be.

That Pearson sees the same number of passengers as Sydney, a far smaller market, speaks volumes. This is the principal international airport for about 10 million people in southern Ontario. You'd expect it to see 60 million passengers annually.
Which Sydney... NSW (Australia) or NS (Canada)?
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Old February 15th, 2015, 11:17 AM   #3915
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If I remember correctly Canada only allows six weekly flights to Canada. I think that's the problem many airlines are having at YYZ, accept Lufthansa, BA, and a few others who have more than one flight a day.

On top of that add the landing fee's, tax, etc, etc and yes I can see the margins going down.

Take EK, or EY for instance, they're ticket office, airport office, staff, etc costs them the same if they have three flights a week, or double daily's. Even they're crew have to stay in hotels four extra days a week doing nothing but waiting.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 05:18 PM   #3916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
You're excusing poor industrial policy in this country when we really should be hopping mad that incompetence higher up is costing Pearson and Toronto dearly. Airports are huge generators of growth for an economy and we've been robbed of that wealth.

When you compare Canadian airports with those everywhere else in the OECD (western European countries, the US, Australia) our low PAX numbers stick out like a sore thumb. We're the only country in the West that's managed to screw this up. It's not Pearson's fault but sugar coating things helps no one.



Agree. The feds treat Canadian airports like their own private cash machine rather than an engine of growth. Pearson does seem like it's starting to prosper despite the noose tied around its neck but is still far from what it should be.

That Pearson sees the same number of passengers as Sydney, a far smaller market, speaks volumes. This is the principal international airport for about 10 million people in southern Ontario. You'd expect it to see 60 million passengers annually.
Not making excuses at all - I simply missed that point in my post. You're right, Canadian airports are seen as a cash cow for the federal government rather than an investment and an engine of growth. So, under the circumstances, Pearson does well, but yes, would do far better without the noose around its neck as you and others have said.

And you're right about the fact that Pearson should have far higher passenger numbers than Sydney, but Australia has been far more liberalized with foreign carriers and Qantas is paying the price for it. Not saying that Canada needs to be as tight as it has been but there has to be a happy medium somewhere.

Last edited by ACT7; February 15th, 2015 at 05:25 PM.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 06:37 PM   #3917
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Originally Posted by urbanfan89 View Post
The government and airport authority are working to reduce landing fees. But this is Canada, so changes must happen slowly.

Low oil prices and the low Canadian dollar help in this aspect. Suddenly the landing fees have dramatically shrunk from the perspective of foreign carriers. Air Canada's cost base has also fallen (against its US competitors), which assists its new strategy for sixth freedom traffic. And the decline in Canada-to-US tourism will, in any case, lead to fewer Canadians at BUF. Maybe they will be instead flying from YYZ to Mexico next winter.
That is only partially true. Many international currencies have also devalued. The euro and yen are both at recent lows, which cancels out the effect of a falling Canadian Dollar.

Buffalo is not just a gateway for US traffic, but can play the same cost game for Europe traffic via the US. This problem cannot be rectified by falling oil prices and a weak currency. The core reason is the high landing charges imposed by the airport authority / government. The numbers out of Buffalo are staggering - 46% of its traffic, or 5.5 million passengers, were Canadians :

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle21205763/
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Old February 15th, 2015, 10:05 PM   #3918
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That is only partially true. Many international currencies have also devalued. The euro and yen are both at recent lows, which cancels out the effect of a falling Canadian Dollar.
It does create an advantage, particularly for passengers from smaller US cities without long haul flights. Someone from, say, Pittsburgh travelling to Europe or Asia must connect somewhere in North America anyway; Air Canada through YYZ is suddenly more competitive against Delta through DTW or American through JFK. It's surprising AC took so long to notice this advantage, but better late than never.

Quote:
Buffalo is not just a gateway for US traffic, but can play the same cost game for Europe traffic via the US. This problem cannot be rectified by falling oil prices and a weak currency. The core reason is the high landing charges imposed by the airport authority / government. The numbers out of Buffalo are staggering - 46% of its traffic, or 5.5 million passengers, were Canadians :

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle21205763/
Canadian bureaucracy *is* slow, so the process of lowering landing fees will take a while. But the weak Canadian dollar has helped this process.

But even if YYZ landing fees were to fall to US levels, flying to Florida out of BUF will still be cheaper than out of YYZ. It's just the inherent nature of international flights.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 10:21 PM   #3919
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Landing fees, customs fees and much higher cost to park at Pearson deter many and go to Buffalo. After all, the consumer in the end is paying for that landing fee.

I've seen cheaper fares to Europe out of Pearson over BUF, thankfully.
I'd rather stay clear of NYC airports, they're aged and as one other person said you get bused around. Had that happen to me when I was connecting in EWR on United. What a joke of an airport.
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Old February 15th, 2015, 10:27 PM   #3920
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Anyways even if the Canadian government loosened it's taxes and restrictions on airliners, I think the average ticket costs will still be higher on average simply because you are dealing with a much smaller market compared with other western countries.
One would think that's true, but Australia has significantly fewer people* than Canada over a similarly massive nation yet their ticket prices are dirt cheap compared to ours. Predictably their PAX numbers blow ours away.

Melbourne airport is the principal international airport for 5.8 million people in the state of Victoria, 4 million of them in Melbourne itself. Trudeau airport is the principal international airport for 8.0 million people in Quebec, 4 million of them in Montreal itself. The Melbourne airport serves 30 million passengers annually, Montreal's serves about 15 million passengers annually. If we matched Australia, Montreal Trudeau should be at around 40 million passengers (instead of 15 million) and Toronto Pearson should be at around 60 million passengers (instead of 39 million).

* Almost as many Canadians live in the Windsor-Quebec City (21 million) corridor as live in all of Australia (23 million)
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Last edited by isaidso; February 15th, 2015 at 10:47 PM.
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