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Old February 15th, 2015, 11:12 PM   #3921
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
One would think that's true, but Australia has significantly fewer people* than Canada over a similarly massive nation yet their ticket prices are dirt cheap compared to ours. Predictably their PAX numbers blow ours away.

Melbourne airport is the principal international airport for 5.8 million people in the state of Victoria, 4 million of them in Melbourne itself. Trudeau airport is the principal international airport for 8.0 million people in Quebec, 4 million of them in Montreal itself. The Melbourne airport serves 30 million passengers annually, Montreal's serves about 15 million passengers annually. If we matched Australia, Montreal Trudeau should be at around 40 million passengers (instead of 15 million) and Toronto Pearson should be at around 60 million passengers (instead of 39 million).

* Almost as many Canadians live in the Windsor-Quebec City (21 million) corridor as live in all of Australia (23 million)
One factor though is that Australia doesn't face the same kind of competition from a bordering behemoth country like the US in the same way that Canada does. New Zealand is the closest 'hub' of any status and that's hardly a fierce competitor. So in that sense, it makes sense that Australian airports punch far above their weight while Canadian airports punch below theirs. On top of everything that's already been mentioned here, it's undeniable that that's a factor.
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Old February 16th, 2015, 12:42 AM   #3922
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Since we are discussing the US effect on the Toronto/Canadian market, I am sort of amazed that Air Canada isn't marketing themselves in the US more especially for international flights to areas outside of the US/Canada. I am pretty sure most Americans would rather have a layover in Toronto over either Chicago O' Hare or Newark/JFK (especially since it has a more efficient layout, and they can even clear US immigration/customs in Toronto and bypass Canadian customs entirely on arrival, not to mention that YYZ isn't affected by delays as much at least compared with either ORD or EWR/JFK). Besides they already serve enough mid-size cities in the US such as Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Hartford, and Nashville to be able to market themselves effectively for this purpose.

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Old February 16th, 2015, 05:22 AM   #3923
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YYZ is used by some US travellers both to and from Europe. I used this flying back from Portugal, and it was a great experience. The only downside to using YYZ is the connection time, due to TSA security you cannot enter the line for passport control until your luggage has cleared secondary screening for your US flight. My flight had approx 40 pax connecting from european flights, and they held the flight so everyone could clear security again (I have no idea why this is done, as connecting passengers have already cleared security).

YYZ is unique that the airport has enough connections to Europe to attract US passengers, and as a Star Alliance hub, passengers can use United to get to Toronto and fly any one of the European Partners to Europe.


In terms of marketing itself, the flight websites do that as an option, and it is up to the customer to choose the flight connecting through Canada
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Old February 16th, 2015, 06:11 AM   #3924
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Since we are discussing the US effect on the Toronto/Canadian market, I am sort of amazed that Air Canada isn't marketing themselves in the US more especially for international flights to areas outside of the US/Canada. I am pretty sure most Americans would rather have a layover in Toronto over either Chicago O' Hare or Newark/JFK (especially since it has a more efficient layout, and they can even clear US immigration/customs in Toronto and bypass Canadian customs entirely on arrival, not to mention that YYZ isn't affected by delays as much at least compared with either ORD or EWR/JFK). Besides they already serve enough mid-size cities in the US such as Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Hartford, and Nashville to be able to market themselves effectively for this purpose.
Air Canada is doing exactly that as of almost 3 or 4 years ago when they heavily expanded their US to YYZ operations. Some of it has been scaled back since, but a large part of YYZ's transborder and international growth has been because of that direct effort.
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Old February 16th, 2015, 08:09 AM   #3925
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Toronto acts as the central airport for Eastern Canada, roughly 20 million people. Anyone east of Manitoba flies first to Pearson before connecting elsewhere. it has very little to do with local demographics.

Also, Dallas and Atlanta are huge airline hubs, Toronto pales in comparison to those two.


GO transit integration to YHM doesn't need to be a train, that would be silly, just running a bus from Aldershot GO up the 403 to the airport would be fine.

Anyone know if YOO ever has a chance of hosting service? probably too small, right?

Last edited by Innsertnamehere; February 16th, 2015 at 08:14 AM.
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Old February 16th, 2015, 08:52 AM   #3926
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
GO transit integration to YHM doesn't need to be a train, that would be silly, just running a bus from Aldershot GO up the 403 to the airport would be fine.

Anyone know if YOO ever has a chance of hosting service? probably too small, right?
Well, if they were to enhance transit connections to YHM, they should fix YYZ first.

I have always wondered why public transit service to other parts of the city from YYZ remains so pitiful? GO has a nice shuttle to Richmond Hill Centre but it runs hourly, while the TTC bus goes to Kipling only. That leaves a huge swath of the city without direct airport service. I don't think the proportion of non-downtown-bound passengers to be small.

I was expecting a Yorkdale / North York / Scarborough Town Centre service would be quite popular at least.

Drawing a comparison with Seoul Incheon, which has a lot of bus lines heading to various parts of the city at very frequent intervals.
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Old February 16th, 2015, 09:52 AM   #3927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Toronto acts as the central airport for Eastern Canada, roughly 20 million people. Anyone east of Manitoba flies first to Pearson before connecting elsewhere. it has very little to do with local demographics.
It will always be Canada's largest airport, but it isn't "entitled" to passengers from anywhere outside the GTA. Someone from, say, Ottawa is totally free to connect through DTW, EWR, or JFK. Or even drive to the US and fly from there. Even Kitchener has direct flights to ORD on United and YYC on WestJet. It really has to fight for passengers even living in its backyard.

Quote:
Also, Dallas and Atlanta are huge airline hubs, Toronto pales in comparison to those two.
It can't compare to these two, but handling as many passengers as, say, SFO, is certainly doable given the similar populations of their respective greater metropolitan areas.
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Old February 16th, 2015, 10:38 AM   #3928
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For YYZ to become a major world hub it needs a local airline to connect to every corner of the world. AC have so many holes in they're network, so many Alpha cities that it doesn't even fly to.

DXB would not have the numbers it has today if it were not for EK's massive organic expansion with multiple daily flights. Plus DXB have a serious local LLC which YYZ doesn't have.

AC, an YYZ have the whole US market to cater to at they're finger tips. Sadly they're behind the curve. The more the Middle Eest three, and Turkish expand to North America the smaller the chance's are of AC being a serious global player. Sooner, or later they will also have access to Montreal, and Vancouver, and what then???

The New World Order in aviation is not in AC's favor if they don't start thinking globally big.

The Dubai Airshow is around the corner and huge orders are to be expected again, while AC will be nickle and dimming it.

It's funny to think DXB is open to all airlines, but still the whole *A crew can't figure out how to get they're act together there.

Once EK add Miami, Orlando, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Newark, Denver, Phoenix, Las Vegas. and Detroit to they're North American roster it's game over. Now's the time for North American airlines to do something about it in a concrete business manner instead of complaining to they're governments. Sooner, or later they will have access to Montreal, and Vancouver, and what then???
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Old February 17th, 2015, 01:41 AM   #3929
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Also, Dallas and Atlanta are huge airline hubs, Toronto pales in comparison to those two.
DFW and ATL are almost entirely domestic hubs, so with a population of 300+ million it's not a huge surprise that they would be substantially larger than YYZ, nor is it really realistic for YYZ to compete with those two hubs that are bases for much larger airlines. The GTAA's vision statement and long term goal is to be the premier gateway to North America. Whether that's realistic, it's a goal. LAX and MIA are catchable in the long run, JFK maybe not, but you can't go big unless you dream big.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 02:35 AM   #3930
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Since we are talking about GO transit, what is the latest news on so called Pearson train link?
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Old February 17th, 2015, 02:41 AM   #3931
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Since we are talking about GO transit, what is the latest news on so called Pearson train link?
It's in the testing phase.

In other related matters, the Eglinton LRT is under construction currently up to Jane. There are long term plans to extend it west. Looking on Google Maps, there doesn't seem to be a convenient way to link it with the airport. Maybe placing a stop by the Viscount Road parking garage would do the trick. The revamp of the airport wasn't done with any thought to public transit.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 02:49 AM   #3932
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^Sweet thanks.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 03:22 AM   #3933
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The airport link is supposed to open in May-ish.

The Eglinton LRT may eventually happen, but it won't be any faster than the existing express bus in getting downtown.

There have been musings of constructing a new "Terminal 2" on the rail corridor with the LINK train being extended to it. This would allow for a proper connection to the proposed high speed rail line as well as access to regular GO trains.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 04:41 PM   #3934
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http://www.torontopearson.com/upload...12-Dec_PAX.pdf

FINALLY!! The stats are in and a great ending to the year for YYZ!
Some highlights:

Every sector was up over 6%, with international seeing the strongest growth at 7.49% (in real numbers that 890K for international pax growth).

YYZ continues to dominate real number growth over the other 'big 3' Canadian airports, in all three sectors. In particular, total international pax traffic is over a million more than all other 3 combined, and real number growth in international pax traffic is over 230K more than the other 3 combined.

YYZ continues to pull away form ORD in terms of international pax traffic, now with a 2 MM pax difference. Factor in transborder traffic and the numbers aren't even close.
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Old February 17th, 2015, 10:14 PM   #3935
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Originally Posted by noir-dresses View Post
For YYZ to become a major world hub it needs a local airline to connect to every corner of the world. AC have so many holes in they're network, so many Alpha cities that it doesn't even fly to.

DXB would not have the numbers it has today if it were not for EK's massive organic expansion with multiple daily flights. Plus DXB have a serious local LLC which YYZ doesn't have.

AC, an YYZ have the whole US market to cater to at they're finger tips. Sadly they're behind the curve. The more the Middle Eest three, and Turkish expand to North America the smaller the chance's are of AC being a serious global player. Sooner, or later they will also have access to Montreal, and Vancouver, and what then???

The New World Order in aviation is not in AC's favor if they don't start thinking globally big.

The Dubai Airshow is around the corner and huge orders are to be expected again, while AC will be nickle and dimming it.

It's funny to think DXB is open to all airlines, but still the whole *A crew can't figure out how to get they're act together there.

Once EK add Miami, Orlando, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Newark, Denver, Phoenix, Las Vegas. and Detroit to they're North American roster it's game over. Now's the time for North American airlines to do something about it in a concrete business manner instead of complaining to they're governments. Sooner, or later they will have access to Montreal, and Vancouver, and what then???
Comparing Dubai or any other large Middle Eastern hub to Air Canada's primary hub in Toronto is a misnomer at best since they serve entirely different purposes. The reason why Emirate's is successful in the first place is because of it's convenient location situated between Asia, Europe, Africa, and Australia. Air Canada would never be able to compete with that since their primary hub is in the Western Hemisphere, if anything they should just strengthen their existing presence in Central/South America and Asia so it would be a key link between Asia and Latin America bypassing the US and/or Europe in addition to providing flights within Canada and the US.
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Old February 18th, 2015, 04:18 AM   #3936
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http://forums.redflagdeals.com/tam-a...april-1664763/
Check this out folks!

TAM is offering oneway price between JFK-YYZ for only 62USD inclusive! Thats a door crasher right there! Thats close to how much it costs on Greyhound these days
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Old February 18th, 2015, 03:02 PM   #3937
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noir-dresses View Post
For YYZ to become a major world hub it needs a local airline to connect to every corner of the world. AC have so many holes in they're network, so many Alpha cities that it doesn't even fly to.

DXB would not have the numbers it has today if it were not for EK's massive organic expansion with multiple daily flights. Plus DXB have a serious local LLC which YYZ doesn't have.

AC, an YYZ have the whole US market to cater to at they're finger tips. Sadly they're behind the curve. The more the Middle Eest three, and Turkish expand to North America the smaller the chance's are of AC being a serious global player. Sooner, or later they will also have access to Montreal, and Vancouver, and what then???

The New World Order in aviation is not in AC's favor if they don't start thinking globally big.

The Dubai Airshow is around the corner and huge orders are to be expected again, while AC will be nickle and dimming it.

It's funny to think DXB is open to all airlines, but still the whole *A crew can't figure out how to get they're act together there.

Once EK add Miami, Orlando, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Newark, Denver, Phoenix, Las Vegas. and Detroit to they're North American roster it's game over. Now's the time for North American airlines to do something about it in a concrete business manner instead of complaining to they're governments. Sooner, or later they will have access to Montreal, and Vancouver, and what then???
AC is competing with the US carriers in attracting passengers from the US to go via YYZ. It is a well known fact that it is actually cheaper to fly through YYZ from the US than to actually fly out of YYZ. But then again that is the same for any airline with a hub. I can fly out of YYZ via JFK to anywhere in Europe for a cheap airfare on DL.

If you think that the US airlines will let EK casually come into the US and fly as freely without a fight as they do to points in Europe, take a look at what is going on now. The backlash is just starting. You think that Canada is protectionist, well, wait and see because the airlines have a powerful lobby machine in Washington and they are not just going to allow this. And trust me, they will use the lost jobs and revenue lines.

YYZ has potential to grow and we know this despite the many cries of how expensive it is to operate too. If this was the case, I would love for someone to explain, Saudia, Eva, Philipines and the many other airlines that have started and sustained their services. The fact is that YYZ is the second largest international airport based on current traffic in North America next to JFK. Take into account YTZ and you have over 40 million using the airports in the Toronto area.

Look at the numbers for Sao Paulo that is quoted and the airport there has just surpassed 39 million people. How come they don't have 60 million people travelling through there? They certainly have the population to support it. However, circumstances are different and just by looking at the city population or metro area is not sufficient.
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Old February 18th, 2015, 07:38 PM   #3938
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Originally Posted by Toronto_41 View Post
AC is competing with the US carriers in attracting passengers from the US to go via YYZ. It is a well known fact that it is actually cheaper to fly through YYZ from the US than to actually fly out of YYZ. But then again that is the same for any airline with a hub. I can fly out of YYZ via JFK to anywhere in Europe for a cheap airfare on DL.

If you think that the US airlines will let EK casually come into the US and fly as freely without a fight as they do to points in Europe, take a look at what is going on now. The backlash is just starting. You think that Canada is protectionist, well, wait and see because the airlines have a powerful lobby machine in Washington and they are not just going to allow this. And trust me, they will use the lost jobs and revenue lines.

YYZ has potential to grow and we know this despite the many cries of how expensive it is to operate too. If this was the case, I would love for someone to explain, Saudia, Eva, Philipines and the many other airlines that have started and sustained their services. The fact is that YYZ is the second largest international airport based on current traffic in North America next to JFK. Take into account YTZ and you have over 40 million using the airports in the Toronto area.

Look at the numbers for Sao Paulo that is quoted and the airport there has just surpassed 39 million people. How come they don't have 60 million people travelling through there? They certainly have the population to support it. However, circumstances are different and just by looking at the city population or metro area is not sufficient.
How come they don't have 60 million...?

Actually Sao Paulo had more than 67.7 million passengers through its main airports in 2014, as it follows:

Sao Paulo GRU International Airport: 39.538.000
Sao Paulo Congonhas Airport: 18.134.000
Sao Paulo Campinas International Airport: 9.846.000
Sao Paulo Campo de Marte Airport: 0.185

It is by far the busiest air traffic control in the Southern Hemisphere and probably one of the top 20 in the world. Another proof that Sao Paulo is a huge economic powerhouse and a very important alpha city. Pitty it is still so underrated.

Last edited by abrandao; February 18th, 2015 at 07:45 PM.
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Old February 18th, 2015, 08:44 PM   #3939
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How come they don't have 60 million...?

Actually Sao Paulo had more than 67.7 million passengers through its main airports in 2014, as it follows:

Sao Paulo GRU International Airport: 39.538.000
Sao Paulo Congonhas Airport: 18.134.000
Sao Paulo Campinas International Airport: 9.846.000
Sao Paulo Campo de Marte Airport: 0.185

It is by far the busiest air traffic control in the Southern Hemisphere and probably one of the top 20 in the world. Another proof that Sao Paulo is a huge economic powerhouse and a very important alpha city. Pitty it is still so underrated.
To be clear, I am just asking a non rhetorical question. One cannot just make blanket statements that an airport should have a certain amount or people passing through it. Sao Paulo has over 10 million people in the region and can certainly support those numbers. So there was meant to be no dig against Sao Paulo.

Heathrow has almost 60 million and if we add together the surrounding airports, the numbers are huge. AC has been pushing to develop the hub in Toronto and they seem to be doing a good job thus far as it is the only 4star airline in North America. Nothing compared to Singapore but pretty good and their brand recognition is up there.

YYZ is the main airport for the region and the growth is going as planned. At some point in time, given the circumstances, it will reach the numbers it should all in due time.
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Old February 19th, 2015, 10:26 PM   #3940
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Originally Posted by Toronto_41 View Post
Sao Paulo has over 10 million people in the region and can certainly support those numbers. So there was meant to be no dig against Sao Paulo.

YYZ is the main airport for the region and the growth is going as planned. At some point in time, given the circumstances, it will reach the numbers it should all in due time.
YYZ hasn't realized its potential but is moving in the right direction. Developing Toronto into a big north American hub rather than just a big Canadian hub is the key. As was mentioned, Toronto needs to be a stop between Europe and other places in (north & south) America. Is there evidence that Toronto is managing to do so?

By my calculations, Pearson's 2014 PAX numbers should mean that we've moved ahead of a few airports and into 33rd spot; moving passed Rome and Sydney. With a few more solid years YYZ should be back in the top 30.

Staying with Sao Paulo GRU, Shanghai SHA, and especially Delhi DEL will be tough, but pulling ahead of Munich, Madrid, Houston George Bush, Phoenix, Miami, and Las Vegas McCarran is doable between now and 2020. Pearson has a lot of momentum right now.

Btw, there are over 20 million people in metro Sao Paulo.
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