daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Airports and Aviation > Airports

Airports discussions about existing airports



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 26th, 2007, 05:16 AM   #401
yyzer
Registered User
 
yyzer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 1,195
Likes (Received): 45

O&D = origin and destination....i.e., point-to-point, and not connecting through....

where most passengers flying to T.O. are actually going to T.O., contrasting with where most passengers flying to Amsterdam are actually going through there, to somewhere else..
yyzer no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 26th, 2007, 12:54 PM   #402
yyzhyd
Registered User
 
yyzhyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 646
Likes (Received): 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
yyzhyd:

what is O&D? Overseas and domestic? Does O&D versus transit hub make that big a difference? For example, everyone flying to Havana from small town Ontario still needs to fly into Toronto to catch the flight, don't they? Or are you saying that they don't fly, they drive to Toronto? Amsterdam is primarily a transit hub for KLM, but isn't the same true for Pearson and Air Canada? Even if Pearson is only a hub for Ontario, the population served is 13 million versus 17 million for all of Holland.

Your explanation regarding the degree of maturation of Pearson versus Amsterdam sounds right. It seems that Pearson only now has in place key attributes that will make it boom.

Regarding airline prices. I understand the customer ends up paying to cover landing fees, etc. but the point was that the entire cost involved in flying in Canada is not competitive with other jurisdictions. My friend did pay $40 in total to fly to Oslo from Heathrow. There is more competition at Heathrow, as someone mentioned, but that is part of the problem. With more foreign airlines choosing to fly into Pearson, competition should increase, and prices should fall.

PS. You guys certainly like your abbreviations!
In theory... but one flaw how many people from Timmins, North Bay etc. are flying through YYZ on a regular basis? That too on little Dash8s...so small numbers.
Whereas AMS also draws people from Brussels, and the densely populated Rhine-Ruhr metropolitan area of Germany (approx. 10 million people) A320s or B737s which seat a little over 2x a Dash8.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian74 View Post
There probably isn't much demand... AC is back to A340 on YYZ-NRT (3 x weekly?) this winter... They can't fill 3 A340s in a week so I doubt there is room for another airline such as JAL.
Exactly and a perfect route for those B787s JAL's getting.
yyzhyd no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 26th, 2007, 07:15 PM   #403
yyzhyd
Registered User
 
yyzhyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 646
Likes (Received): 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzer View Post
....having said that, there will be an inbound JL 747 charter tomorrow, Sept 26th, into terminal 3 at about 1730...I believe it is a "fall foliage" charter. I think there is at least one other as well, expected in a few days...
Enroute as we speak...
Flight #: JL8808
Route: KIX (Osaka) - YYZ (Toronto)
Equipment: Boeing 747-400
Registration: JA8079
ETA: 17:03 EDT
yyzhyd no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2007, 01:26 AM   #404
Canadian74
Registered User
 
Canadian74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 533
Likes (Received): 1

Oh I forgot about the 787s.

Anyways, is 9W going to expand more in Canada? YVR maybe?
Canadian74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2007, 03:03 AM   #405
ACT7
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,402
Likes (Received): 77

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian74 View Post
There probably isn't much demand... AC is back to A340 on YYZ-NRT (3 x weekly?) this winter... They can't fill 3 A340s in a week so I doubt there is room for another airline such as JAL.
If you check the loads on the YYZ-NRT run, you'll see that there is hardly ever a seat available. The reason for the change of aircraft and frequency for the winter schedule is like any other reason to change aircraft and frequency on a seasonal basis. There's always a seasonal load difference for any destination so I'm not sure that this factor alone would deter JAL from flying to YYZ.
ACT7 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2007, 03:08 AM   #406
Canadian74
Registered User
 
Canadian74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 533
Likes (Received): 1

That's what I said!
Canadian74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2007, 03:27 AM   #407
yyzer
Registered User
 
yyzer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 1,195
Likes (Received): 45

I believe there are something like 400 or more Japanese companies with either Canadian head offices or regional offices, in southern Ontario; everything from banks to car companies. That has got to be a solid underpinning for any service between YYZ and Tokyo.

I remember years ago, when JAL code-shared on CP Air's flight (DC10) from YYZ to NRT, and they were complaining at the time that they couldn't get enough Business Class seats (!), the demand was too high.

There are also many Japanese tour groups, in the summer, who come here via other carriers - they especially love to visit Niagara Falls. JL flying to YYZ would grow this business exponentially.

Selling tickets outbound out of Toronto, in addition to a very steady Canada-Japan travel market, they could sell major connections to places like Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia.

IMO, is nothing short of astonishing that JAL have bypassed Toronto up until now. As one of the world's major carriers, it will be good for everyone, when and if they start here. The problem in the past was officially a shortage of airport slots at Narita, although that seems kind of suspect given the amount of time that has elapsed. I am not sure if the bilateral agreement in place restricted them, although they certainly sold the code-share flights with CP in the 1990s. Hopefully we will indeed see them here in the near future.
yyzer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2007, 05:10 AM   #408
Canadian74
Registered User
 
Canadian74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 533
Likes (Received): 1

The demand is there in the summer season only... In the winter it's a money loser.

3x weekly A343 tells you that... The route can't even support a 777 in the winter! And you're saying JAL should come too.

There is a reason they haven't come to YYZ till now.

Maybe things will change in the future, though. And I hope so too. Another world-class carrier at YYZ is always a good thing.
Canadian74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2007, 06:06 PM   #409
yyzhyd
Registered User
 
yyzhyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 646
Likes (Received): 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian74 View Post
The demand is there in the summer season only... In the winter it's a money loser.

3x weekly A343 tells you that... The route can't even support a 777 in the winter! And you're saying JAL should come too.

There is a reason they haven't come to YYZ till now.

Maybe things will change in the future, though. And I hope so too. Another world-class carrier at YYZ is always a good thing.
Demand is there year-round... HOW MUCH demand is the issue. Yeah maybe that's just playing semantics but if it was a money loser in the winter why would AC even fly it? They could just route pax through YVR.

The reason JL hasn't come here is not purely because of demand (or lack thereof). They are a VERY conservative airline which has led to stagnation over the years. JL isn't exactly considered a "world-class carrier" in many circles for a while. Just do a search to find out all about their issues.
yyzhyd no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2007, 06:58 PM   #410
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,929
Likes (Received): 18195

West Coast remains a much stronger market for Japanese tourists.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2007, 09:00 PM   #411
Filip
Torontonian 4ever
 
Filip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 9,891
Likes (Received): 435

According to a friend from Italy, Air One will pick up the slack on YYZ-MXP after Alitalia pulls out.
Filip no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th, 2007, 11:45 PM   #412
kjoey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 473
Likes (Received): 164

[QUOTE=yyzhyd;15588999]Demand is there year-round... HOW MUCH demand is the issue. Yeah maybe that's just playing semantics but if it was a money loser in the winter why would AC even fly it? They could just route pax through YVR.QUOTE]

Maybe to protect the route from other carriers from operating and the fact that NRT slots are hard to come by!
kjoey no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2007, 01:18 AM   #413
ACT7
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,402
Likes (Received): 77

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filip View Post
According to a friend from Italy, Air One will pick up the slack on YYZ-MXP after Alitalia pulls out.
What the hell? Did I miss some news about Alitalia!? Are they ceasing their YYZ operation?? Where have I been?
ACT7 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2007, 01:25 AM   #414
Filip
Torontonian 4ever
 
Filip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 9,891
Likes (Received): 435

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACT7 View Post
What the hell? Did I miss some news about Alitalia!? Are they ceasing their YYZ operation?? Where have I been?
Part of their restructuring plan is to terminate the Milan hub and operate mainly out of Fiumicino. Therefore, Alitalia's Toronto-Rome route will stay, but Alitalia's Toronto-Milan route gets the cut.
Filip no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2007, 01:32 AM   #415
yyzer
Registered User
 
yyzer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 1,195
Likes (Received): 45

Alitalia are almost bankrupt...their entire future is at risk, but the unions just don't seem to "get it"...
yyzer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2007, 03:25 AM   #416
UD2
A very cool person
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,294
Likes (Received): 31

I used to work ramp for AC during he summer. The Japanese traffic usually goes through Calgry.
__________________
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed" - President Eisenhower
UD2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2007, 04:33 AM   #417
Canadian74
Registered User
 
Canadian74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 533
Likes (Received): 1

Calgary? Or Vancouver?
Canadian74 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2007, 09:48 PM   #418
yyzhyd
Registered User
 
yyzhyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 646
Likes (Received): 9

[QUOTE=kjoey;15595132]
Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
Demand is there year-round... HOW MUCH demand is the issue. Yeah maybe that's just playing semantics but if it was a money loser in the winter why would AC even fly it? They could just route pax through YVR.QUOTE]

Maybe to protect the route from other carriers from operating and the fact that NRT slots are hard to come by!
Slots are allocated to designated airlines for a specific airport in accordance with a bilateral agreement. So if AC can fly unlimited frequencies from YVR and YYZ in Canada to NRT and KIX as part of the bilateral but NRT assigns a total of 4 slots at NRT to AC. It is up to AC to decide how to allocate the flights. Therefore AC can choose to fly 4 from YVR, all 4 from YYZ, mix it up, or fly none. Another airline cannot use their slots.
Slots are not the the same as frequencies allowed as per said bilateral agreement.
That is why for example at LHR, a UK airline may sell a slot to an Asian carrier.
yyzhyd no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2007, 09:52 PM   #419
yyzhyd
Registered User
 
yyzhyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 646
Likes (Received): 9

Jet Airways upgauge to 77W

Loads look to be fantastic on 9W's new YYZ service that they're substituting the B77W again.
Tomorrow Sept. 29 and Oct. 1
I always thought that 9W was shortchanging YYZ traffic with the A332. Who knows we might see the B77W replace the A332 permanently if this keeps up.
yyzhyd no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2007, 12:44 AM   #420
ACT7
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,402
Likes (Received): 77

Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
Loads look to be fantastic on 9W's new YYZ service that they're substituting the B77W again.
Tomorrow Sept. 29 and Oct. 1
I always thought that 9W was shortchanging YYZ traffic with the A332. Who knows we might see the B77W replace the A332 permanently if this keeps up.
My guess is that if they permanently replace the 332 with their 77W, it should become a non-stop route in the not too distant future. It once again proves that AC's pull-out of India was pure mismanagement of aircraft, or simply lack of available fuel efficient aircraft. In any event, AC has made it pretty clear that when they begin receiving their 787's, India is back on their hit list.
ACT7 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
canada, canadian airports, northamerica airport hubs, toronto

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium