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Old October 26th, 2008, 07:03 AM   #701
TObermuda37
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Originally Posted by YYZplanner View Post
_________________________________________________________________

Thank-You for that helpful information, but it seems as though you are very educated on the connections between YYZ and the middle east. I have a few questions for you that I hope you can answer. Why hasn't Saudi Arabian Airlines started direct flights out from Toronto when there are many Canadians that go to Saudi Arabia yearly? The second question is, do you know when Emirates and Etihad airways will start daily flights out from Toronto? The third question is do you know any airlines that are coming to YYZ soon or later? And just one thing, do you know why Air Canada did not go direct to Saudi Arabia, but decided to put its code on BMI flights? Please try and answer these, for I am curious about them. Thanks.
YYZplanner,

Thanks for the compliment but I only know what I read. Saudi Arabian was rumoured to be looking at flying to YYZ. But thus far, nothing has transpired. Ethiad and Emirates won't start daily flights until the bilateral agreement is updated or renegotiated. As far as I understand it, this is not a priority for the Canadian Gov't. Last I read, Emirates was pushing the Cdn Govt to update it. As for new airlines, that is anyone's guess. TAM just signed a code share with AC and they are rumoured to be looking at YYZ. THY is also rumoured to be wanting access along with Qatar Airways. I could not tell you why AC opted not to fly direct. This way, they derrive some revenue from the BMI flights without having to take on another non stop flight which is going to cost them . All very interesting things but with the world economy going the way it is, things change pretty fast. The only other thing I would suggest is check out airliners.net as they are pretty knowledgeable on that board.
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Old October 26th, 2008, 08:43 AM   #702
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Originally Posted by TObermuda37 View Post
YYZplanner,

Thanks for the compliment but I only know what I read. Saudi Arabian was rumoured to be looking at flying to YYZ. But thus far, nothing has transpired. Ethiad and Emirates won't start daily flights until the bilateral agreement is updated or renegotiated. As far as I understand it, this is not a priority for the Canadian Gov't. Last I read, Emirates was pushing the Cdn Govt to update it. As for new airlines, that is anyone's guess. TAM just signed a code share with AC and they are rumoured to be looking at YYZ. THY is also rumoured to be wanting access along with Qatar Airways. I could not tell you why AC opted not to fly direct. This way, they derrive some revenue from the BMI flights without having to take on another non stop flight which is going to cost them . All very interesting things but with the world economy going the way it is, things change pretty fast. The only other thing I would suggest is check out airliners.net as they are pretty knowledgeable on that board.
_________________________________________________________________
I thank-You so much for your knowledge on this! I am new to this site- and I really want to learn more about the airlines that are expected to come to toronto airport. If you dont mind, can you keep me updated on the arab airlines from the middle east that are soon expecting to come to toronto? I heard that JetBlue was supposed to announce weather it was going to come to toronto this month mid. Do you know if it coming? And one last question, where do I go on airliners.net to see the updates at toronto pearson intl airport? Once again, that you for the information passed on.
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Old October 26th, 2008, 05:43 PM   #703
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I may be able to add a little to the discussion....the first thing to realize is that all international flights to and from Canada are strictly governed by the Canadian government - they determine who can fly where, and how often. When permission is given, it is through a written, legal agreement called a 'bilateral air agreement'.

In the past, rights to fly here were very restricted, and it is only in the last few years that the Canadian government has started to open up route access, especially to Toronto, which was traditionally the most protected point of access..many old bilateral air agreements allowed some limited access to Montreal, but not to Toronto. The modern era has opened up access to Toronto (and other Canadian cities), but progress has been slow.

So Saudi Arabian, Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, and all others, can only fly here if the Canadian government says they can, and can only fly as often as they are allowed to.

Saudi Arabia is still governed by an old bilateral air agreement which restricts their access to Montreal...there were rumours that they wanted to add Toronto, via a stop in Manchester U.K., but until the bilateral air agreement is updated between Canada and Saudi Arabia, they are restricted from doing so.

Qatar and Turkey currently have no bilateral air agreements with Canada at all, and until they are able to negotiate one, the carriers of those countries are prevented from flying here.

The U.A.E, is a little different situation....here, there is a bilateral air agreement, but the agreement is limited in the flight frequencies which are allowed...the UAE carriers can fly to Toronto, but are only allowed a total of six weekly flights; these are currently split at 3 for Emirates, and 3 for Etihad...both of these carriers want an increase in the frequency to offer daily flights (for a total of 14 weekly flights)...but until the Canadian government amends the existing air agreement, they are prevented from doing so...

So you can see, it is not a free market flying between countries in most cases, and the flights are in fact highly controlled by the government.

As per Jet Blue, that is news to me if they are planning Toronto, I would highly doubt it....U.S. carriers have unrestricted access to Toronto through the 'Open Skies' agreement, which is a bilateral air agreement with no restrictions...but the cost of flying to Toronto does not fit into JetBlue's business model, I am told, so they have avoided service here up to now..

Last edited by yyzer; October 26th, 2008 at 05:54 PM.
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Old October 26th, 2008, 10:07 PM   #704
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Originally Posted by yyzer View Post
I may be able to add a little to the discussion....the first thing to realize is that all international flights to and from Canada are strictly governed by the Canadian government - they determine who can fly where, and how often. When permission is given, it is through a written, legal agreement called a 'bilateral air agreement'.

In the past, rights to fly here were very restricted, and it is only in the last few years that the Canadian government has started to open up route access, especially to Toronto, which was traditionally the most protected point of access..many old bilateral air agreements allowed some limited access to Montreal, but not to Toronto. The modern era has opened up access to Toronto (and other Canadian cities), but progress has been slow.

So Saudi Arabian, Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, and all others, can only fly here if the Canadian government says they can, and can only fly as often as they are allowed to.

Saudi Arabia is still governed by an old bilateral air agreement which restricts their access to Montreal...there were rumours that they wanted to add Toronto, via a stop in Manchester U.K., but until the bilateral air agreement is updated between Canada and Saudi Arabia, they are restricted from doing so.

Qatar and Turkey currently have no bilateral air agreements with Canada at all, and until they are able to negotiate one, the carriers of those countries are prevented from flying here.

The U.A.E, is a little different situation....here, there is a bilateral air agreement, but the agreement is limited in the flight frequencies which are allowed...the UAE carriers can fly to Toronto, but are only allowed a total of six weekly flights; these are currently split at 3 for Emirates, and 3 for Etihad...both of these carriers want an increase in the frequency to offer daily flights (for a total of 14 weekly flights)...but until the Canadian government amends the existing air agreement, they are prevented from doing so...

So you can see, it is not a free market flying between countries in most cases, and the flights are in fact highly controlled by the government.

As per Jet Blue, that is news to me if they are planning Toronto, I would highly doubt it....U.S. carriers have unrestricted access to Toronto through the 'Open Skies' agreement, which is a bilateral air agreement with no restrictions...but the cost of flying to Toronto does not fit into JetBlue's business model, I am told, so they have avoided service here up to now..
_________________________________________________________________

Do you know why it is taking so long for the Canadian government to allow these flights and more airlines to come in? It is better for their own business and they would profit from it. New York has so many daily flights to and from the middle east already. Toronto's airport has been currently made bigger and modified. Do you think that more airlines could be seen in the future at toronto airport?
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Old October 27th, 2008, 01:59 AM   #705
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well, YYZplanner, whenever politics are involved, things take time....you would think that the government would welcome all foreign carriers, as a benefit to the Canadian travelling public, but they don't....they are also there to protect the Canadian airline industry, and if Canadian carriers are not interested in a certain route, then it is very difficult for the foreign carrier to gain access here...

There is a lot of politics involved...sometimes, access to YYZ may be tied to other issues...maybe purchase of made-in-Canada aircraft, maybe contracts in other non-related fields, who knows?

Having said that, there there has been considerable progress in the last few years, and I am sure you will gradually see more foreign (and Middle Eastern) carriers at YYZ...
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Old October 27th, 2008, 03:43 AM   #706
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Originally Posted by yyzer View Post
well, YYZplanner, whenever politics are involved, things take time....you would think that the government would welcome all foreign carriers, as a benefit to the Canadian travelling public, but they don't....they are also there to protect the Canadian airline industry, and if Canadian carriers are not interested in a certain route, then it is very difficult for the foreign carrier to gain access here...

There is a lot of politics involved...sometimes, access to YYZ may be tied to other issues...maybe purchase of made-in-Canada aircraft, maybe contracts in other non-related fields, who knows?

Having said that, there there has been considerable progress in the last few years, and I am sure you will gradually see more foreign (and Middle Eastern) carriers at YYZ...
_________________________________________________________________

Thanks for that helpful information, and I really appreciate it. Just one thing, where do go to get this future information on YYZ airport? And one more thing, how many more airlines do we expect to see in toronto by 2009 and 2010?
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Old October 27th, 2008, 08:19 AM   #707
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^ AZIL is another possible cause. Back in 1998, Yugoslav Airlines were not granted landings in YYZ due to possible azil issues.
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Old October 28th, 2008, 07:44 PM   #708
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^ AZIL is another possible cause. Back in 1998, Yugoslav Airlines were not granted landings in YYZ due to possible azil issues.
Not sure if AZIL is or not, but JAT was granted authority to serve YYZ either last year or earlier this year but they could not get the Authority to JFK. Because of that, they did not pick up the option for the 767 aircraft(s) that were needed to do these runs.
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Old October 31st, 2008, 03:29 AM   #709
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Not sure if AZIL is or not, but JAT was granted authority to serve YYZ either last year or earlier this year but they could not get the Authority to JFK. Because of that, they did not pick up the option for the 767 aircraft(s) that were needed to do these runs.
What is AZIL?
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Old October 31st, 2008, 05:34 AM   #710
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What is AZIL?
Would love to tell you but it is one that I am not familiar with. I know Azal but that is from Azeribaijan.
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Old October 31st, 2008, 07:11 AM   #711
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Asil as in refugee status?
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Old October 31st, 2008, 11:27 AM   #712
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^ That was the scenerio in Jat's case.
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Old October 31st, 2008, 11:32 AM   #713
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Originally Posted by TObermuda37 View Post
Not sure if AZIL is or not, but JAT was granted authority to serve YYZ either last year or earlier this year but they could not get the Authority to JFK. Because of that, they did not pick up the option for the 767 aircraft(s) that were needed to do these runs.
I think you are correct on that one. I don't think we would see Jat in YYZ anytime soon. I hope I am wrong. The only one that can touch Pearson is oLYMPIC. That goes for Balkan region. I am confident on that one.
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Old November 1st, 2008, 08:11 AM   #714
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I think you are correct on that one. I don't think we would see Jat in YYZ anytime soon. I hope I am wrong. The only one that can touch Pearson is oLYMPIC. That goes for Balkan region. I am confident on that one.
Does anyone know if Gulf air has any plans to YYZ? It's already in JFK.
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Old November 3rd, 2008, 07:19 AM   #715
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^ There were some TOPICS on airliners forums. I am sure they would love to come, but if the airport fees don't bother them, I guess they should be okay.
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Old November 4th, 2008, 01:50 AM   #716
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^ There were some TOPICS on airliners forums. I am sure they would love to come, but if the airport fees don't bother them, I guess they should be okay.
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What about Kuwait airlines? Does anyone know if Kuwait airlines is coming to toronto?
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Old November 4th, 2008, 09:05 AM   #717
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I have not heard anything on Kuwait airlines. Keep in mind that they do serve some American destinations such as KWI-GVA-ORD. They wanted to axe ORD not long ago. There were some talks about YYZ and daily non stop to JFK. Apparently the governemt does not offer substantial financial support as in 1990-ties. Ten years ago they were making a decent profit. The time will tell I guess.
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Old November 12th, 2008, 03:26 AM   #718
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I have not heard anything on Kuwait airlines. Keep in mind that they do serve some American destinations such as KWI-GVA-ORD. They wanted to axe ORD not long ago. There were some talks about YYZ and daily non stop to JFK. Apparently the governemt does not offer substantial financial support as in 1990-ties. Ten years ago they were making a decent profit. The time will tell I guess.
_________________________________________________________________
Does anyone know about Air Canada's upcoming destinations in the middle east in 2009? Is Air Canada going to start to fly to Dubai in 2009? What about other canadian airlines? Are they going to start to fly to the middle east?
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Old November 18th, 2008, 05:12 AM   #719
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Air Canada is introducing a Toronto-Montreal-Geneva route to be daily in the summer and 5pw during winter using a 767-300ER.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/a.../17/c9017.html
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Old November 21st, 2008, 03:19 AM   #720
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Canada and South Korea have signed an Open Skies Agreement...apparently this week.....

Hasn't been officially announced yet at the Transport Canada website, but Reuters in Seoul are reporting it...
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