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Old November 26th, 2008, 12:22 PM   #741
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Yuppers. Malev was one of those at YYZ. Full economy but small loads in business class.
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Old November 26th, 2008, 12:23 PM   #742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzer View Post
hkskyline is right....I have been told that on certain longhaul routes, the profit on -one- business class traveller is equal to the total profit on -100- economy class travellers....in other words, 2 or 3 business class passengers can be as valuable at the entire coach cabin....
That is very true. Some of hardcore business route will amaze you with their pax number in economy. There has to be some math.
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Old November 26th, 2008, 01:20 PM   #743
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Since we are talking about AC..... Is it true that AC b777 can reach EU faster than with 767? I booked the same flight to Europe and the flying time was reduced from 8 to 7 hours.... That must be true. I looked at former Jat time table and with DC10 they could do Zagreb in 7 hours. However that was from YUL I must say.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 10:04 PM   #744
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Aeromexico flying to Toronto.

Aeromexico is to start servicing SFO, DEN and YYZ in February. Check it out: http://www.aeromexico.com
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Old November 27th, 2008, 11:13 PM   #745
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Aeromexico YYZ schedule

Excellent news!
Good to see they're adding to the existing seasonal service from CUN-YYZ with this new MEX-YYZ route.

Schedule below:

AM630
Depart Mexico City (MEX) 5:35PM
Arrive Toronto (YYZ) 11:05PM

AM631
Depart Toronto (YYZ) 9:00AM
Arrive Mexico City (MEX) 1:00PM

Frequency: Daily
All flights operated by Boeing B737-700
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Old November 27th, 2008, 11:29 PM   #746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
I think there are some misconceptions on how airlines plan and run routes. A key exception we see is the lack of connectivity to India (direct flights) despite a huge Indian population in the country. While route planning is driven heavily by population [market size], it is ultimately a question of profitability. Why would management want to fly to a place with a full plane but small profits when they can fly to another place that may be 3/4 full but much more profitable?

That being said, it is also important to balance the different classes. Since Business Class is so much more profitable, a route is not likely to be a top performer even if all of Economy is full but there is a small Business Class market.
The Canada-India market is very price sensitive, and there are numerous airlines that can get a passenger from Canada to India in one-stop. That offers a lot of opportunity for customers to compare and go with the airline that may only be $100-200 cheaper.
No non-stops currently exist and with Air India's experience with JFK-India non-stops I doubt we'll see it anytime prior to the 787 EIS.

The other factor to understand that Canada is an average, and Toronto is just a slightly higher than average market for high-yield passengers (i.e. Business, First). There is a reason why Air Canada doesn't offer a First Class.
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Old November 28th, 2008, 02:12 AM   #747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
The Canada-India market is very price sensitive, and there are numerous airlines that can get a passenger from Canada to India in one-stop. That offers a lot of opportunity for customers to compare and go with the airline that may only be $100-200 cheaper.
No non-stops currently exist and with Air India's experience with JFK-India non-stops I doubt we'll see it anytime prior to the 787 EIS.

The other factor to understand that Canada is an average, and Toronto is just a slightly higher than average market for high-yield passengers (i.e. Business, First). There is a reason why Air Canada doesn't offer a First Class.
Oh definately man, AC definately offers first classes on their planes. They have pictures on the actual website.
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Old November 28th, 2008, 11:39 PM   #748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YYZplanner View Post
Oh definately man, AC definately offers first classes on their planes. They have pictures on the actual website.
Nope. AC just calls their Business Class "Executive First". A very nice product regardless.
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Old November 29th, 2008, 01:46 AM   #749
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I think so too. No first class. AC got a nice business but , I would take that Jet airways first class suite.
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Old December 1st, 2008, 07:47 PM   #750
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Just perusing through some more (see Cathay update post #736) 2009 timetables (Amadeus, GDS etc.) to YYZ and found the following changes:

Air France
Mar to May 2009
AF358
Depart Paris (CDG) 10:50AM
Arrive Toronto (YYZ) 1:15PM

AF353
Depart Toronto (YYZ) 4:40PM
Arrive Paris (CDG) 6:05AM next day

Frequency: Daily
Flights operated by Airbus A340-300 operates on Mon, Wed, Fri
Flights operated by Boeing 747-400 operates on Tue,Thu,Sat,Sun

May to Oct 2009
AF358
Depart Paris (CDG) 10:50AM
Arrive Toronto (YYZ) 1:15PM

AF353
Depart Toronto (YYZ) 4:40PM
Arrive Paris (CDG) 6:05AM next day

Frequency: Daily
All flights operated by Boeing B747-400

Icelandair
Will be returning for Summer 09 starting in April with 3x Weekly
increasing to 5x Weekly from late May to Sept.
All flights operated by Boeing B757-200

British Airways
Thankfully dropping the B767-300 ops to Pearson
Starting June 2009
BA093
Depart London (LHR) 12:00PM
Arrive Toronto (YYZ) 3:10PM

BA092
Depart Toronto (YYZ) 6:25PM
Arrive London (LHR) 6:45AM next day

Frequency: Daily
Flights operated by Boeing B777-200ER on Mon,Thu,Fri,Sat,Sun
Flights operated by Boeing B747-400 on Tue,Wed

-----
BA099
Depart London (LHR) 3:15PM
Arrive Toronto (YYZ) 5:50PM

BA098
Depart Toronto (YYZ) 8:25PM
Arrive London (LHR) 8:15AM next day

Frequency: Daily
Flights operated by Boeing B747-400 on Mon,Thu,Fri,Sat,Sun
Flights operated by Boeing B777-200ER on Tue,Wed

KLM
Starting June 2009
KL691
Depart Amsterdam (AMS) 1:45PM
Arrive Toronto (YYZ) 3:40PM

KL692
Depart Toronto (YYZ) 5:45PM
Arrive Amsterdam (AMS) 7:00AM next day

Frequency: Daily
All flights operated by Boeing B747-400

KL695
Depart Amsterdam (AMS) 6:20PM
Arrive Toronto (YYZ) 8:15PM

KL696
Depart Toronto (YYZ) 10:15PM
Arrive Amsterdam (AMS) 11:25AM next day

Frequency: Daily except Wed
All flights operated by Boeing B777-200ER

I'll post more as the skeds get uploaded, if everyone is interested.
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Old December 3rd, 2008, 11:16 PM   #751
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It's official - AM adding Daily MEX-YYZ flights....

here's today's press release....

Dec 03, 2008 11:21

AeroMexico to Expand North American Operations With New Service to Toronto, San Francisco and Denver in Early 2009


Airline Launches First Canadian Service with Toronto Operations; San Francisco/Bay Area is Airline's Fourth California Market; Colorado Becomes Fifth State Served by AeroMexico in Western U.S.
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http://www.AeroMexico.comHOUSTON, TX--(Marketwire - December 3, 2008) - AeroMexico, the global airline of Latin America, has announced that it will expand its North American operations significantly with new service to Toronto, Canada, San Francisco and Denver in early 2009. Service in each market will include daily, non-stop flights to Mexico City with connecting service to 40 destinations throughout Mexico and cities in 12 other countries in Latin America, Europe and Asia. The airline will offer the best value available on these routes with its combination of competitive fares and a distinctive, premier style of service. Attractively priced vacation packages, which include airfare, hotel accommodations and rental car, will also be available through AeroMexico Vacations.

Frank Galan, Vice President, U.S. Division, AeroMexico, said, "We are expanding our North American operations to capitalize on growth opportunities that have arisen due to shifts in service by other carriers and increased market demand. We are very enthusiastic about AeroMexico's growth and will continue to expand to new markets where it makes sense based on customers' international travel needs."

Toronto Will Become Airline's First Canadian Market

Galan added, "Launching service in Canada is an important part of AeroMexico's growth strategy for 2009. We expect strong demand both in Toronto and in Mexico City for this service due to the increase in international business and tourism between the two countries."

AeroMexico will launch daily, non-stop flights between Toronto and Mexico City on February 2. Flights will depart from Toronto Pearson International Airport at 9:00 a.m. EST and arrive at Mexico City International Airport at 1:00 p.m. CST. Departures from Mexico City are scheduled at 5:35 p.m. CST with arrivals in Toronto at 11:05 p.m. EST.

San Francisco/Bay Area Will Become Airline's Fourth California Market

Galan said, "California has become AeroMexico's largest overall market in the United States. Our upcoming San Francisco service reflects our commitment to being a leader in meeting the state's international travel needs to Mexico and beyond."

He added, "San Francisco, Los Angeles, Ontario and San Diego all have major Hispanic/Latino populations with ties to Mexico; Mexico destinations represent attractive vacation locations for California residents; and California destinations are favorite vacation spots for people in Mexico. International business is also growing between these markets and our new flights support this exchange of goods and services."

AeroMexico will launch daily, non-stop flights between San Francisco and Mexico City on February 2. Flights will depart from San Francisco International Airport at 7:00 a.m. PST and will arrive at Mexico City International Airport at 1:20 p.m. CST. Departures from Mexico City are scheduled at 7:05 p.m. CST with arrivals in San Francisco at 10:15 p.m. PST.

Denver Service Will Add Fifth State to AeroMexico's Western Region

Galan said, "We are excited about launching service to Denver because it allows us to bring our distinctive service to the traveling public in a fifth state in our Western region. Passenger traffic trends also indicate that important, unmet demand exists for this service."

AeroMexico will launch daily, non-stop flights between Denver and Mexico City on March 2. Flights will depart from Denver International Airport at 1:25 p.m. MST and will arrive at Mexico City International Airport at 6:20 p.m. CST. Departures from Mexico City are scheduled at 9:30 a.m. CST with arrivals in Denver at 12:25 p.m. MST.

Airline Offers Industry-Leading Service, Safety and Reliability Systemwide

Passengers on every AeroMexico flight on these routes will enjoy the airline's distinctive style of service, which has been recognized with major industry awards. While on board the airline's spacious Boeing 737 jets, passengers will receive complimentary beverages, including cocktails, and complete meals at meal times along with attentive, personalized service. In addition, flight schedules will provide convenient arrival and departure times to complement the airline's superior, on-time performance record.

AeroMexico and its subsidiary, AeroMexico Connect, operate more than 300 daily flights through the airline's Mexico City International Airport hub to 40 destinations in Mexico, 14 U.S. locations as well as major cities that include Shanghai, Paris and Buenos Aires in 12 other countries worldwide. U.S. cities served currently are Los Angeles, Ontario (Ca.), San Diego, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Seattle/Tacoma, Houston, San Antonio, Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, New York City, Orlando and Miami. AeroMexico Vacations provides customized vacation travel packages. The airline also offers connecting service to other international destinations through its Sky Team global airline alliance with 11 full member carriers and three associate carriers. AeroMexico has been recognized for its award-winning style of personalized in-flight service, one of the world's best on-time flight records, the highest safety and quality standards ratings, outstanding reliability and baggage handling performance, and exceptional value based on its competitive fares and superior service. Additional information is available at www.aeromexico.com or 1-800-237-6639.
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Old December 4th, 2008, 06:39 AM   #752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post

The other factor to understand that Canada is an average, and Toronto is just a slightly higher than average market for high-yield passengers (i.e. Business, First). There is a reason why Air Canada doesn't offer a First Class.
Having said that, I think they have to stop over in EU to fill up the airplane on its way to India. Is there a way to fill up a plane here in YYZ with sufficient load factor?

Condisering that we got two Indian carriers at YYZ I dont think so.
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Old December 4th, 2008, 04:53 PM   #753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lvan View Post
Having said that, I think they have to stop over in EU to fill up the airplane on its way to India. Is there a way to fill up a plane here in YYZ with sufficient load factor?

Considering that we got two Indian carriers at YYZ I dont think so.
Not necessarily, there is definitely a strong market for Canada-India. The trick is to find the right combination of routing, connectivity and aircraft. I could write an essay on this but here's some points...

Jet Airways stops in BRU because they are using it as a scissor hub for three destinations from North America to various cities in India. They have finally realized that the A332 is the best aircraft for this type of operation and are leasing out their "extra" B77Ws to Turkish Airlines.

Air India sadly is a terribly run airline that is trying to capture the DEL/ATQ VFR market out of Toronto. They returned to Toronto in 2005 with 5x weekly service but quickly have found that despite filling their airplanes, they are not making any money. Now they are down to 3x weekly frequency. AI has also rerouted their Toronto flight now through London as they weren't getting enough revenue previously through BHX.

Air Canada's mistake with their now defunct YYZ-ZRH-DEL and YYZ-DEL non-stop routes was that they were flying to the wrong city IMHO. A more lucrative pairing would have been YYZ-BOM and YVR-DEL.

BOM is the country's financial centre/main business hub and a natural pair for YYZ.
DEL is primarily government and VFR traffic (i.e. Punjab connections) and would have a lot of ties to the extremely large Punjabi community in YVR.

When the 787s eventually arrive in AC's fleet, expect to definitely see Air Canada return to India.
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Old December 6th, 2008, 06:35 PM   #754
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I wonder if AC+SK would be successful doing a YYZ-CPH-DEL/BOM cooperation. The routing, to BOM in particular, is pretty much straight. Plus there isn't currently a single direct flight between Canada and Scandinavia-- and using the strong Canada-India market could perhaps make such a route happen?

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Old December 6th, 2008, 08:42 PM   #755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staff View Post
I wonder if AC+SK would be successful doing a YYZ-CPH-DEL/BOM cooperation. The routing, to BOM in particular, is pretty much straight. Plus there isn't currently a single direct flight between Canada and Scandinavia-- and using the strong Canada-India market could perhaps make such a route happen?
There is already a strong cooperation between AC and LH on the Canada-India market seeing as LH has the most Indian destinations of any European carrier (7: Mumbai, Delhi, Kolkata, Bangalore, Pune, Chennai, Hyderabad) so the vast majority of passengers on that route fly via FRA and MUC.

And seeing that SAS is likely to be acquired by LH in that not so distant future, they should probably focus on other growth markets.
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Old December 7th, 2008, 04:45 AM   #756
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Retro observation:

It was a good thing in 2003, that the old airport terminal was still in use. It was great watching airplanes from the top deck, of a partially closed parking area.

A pretty interesting structure... unique actually. At that time, I wasn't aware of any other building in the world, that had car parking above the terminal. While I was there, at least three levels were closed to vehicles, on account of severely corroded reinforced concrete.
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Old December 7th, 2008, 04:18 PM   #757
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Etihad will be changing their equipment type to the 777-300ER (77W), and will also change the schedule times to YYZ, effective March 29/09...

Abu Dhabi - Toronto
Current schedule
EY141 AUH0205 - 0815YYZ 346 246
EY140 YYZ1000 - 0755+1AUH 346 246

EFFECTIVE 29MAR09
Boeing 777-300ER is planned to replace Airbus A340-600

EY141 AUH1010 - 1640YYZ 77W 246
EY140 YYZ2245 - 2000+1AUH 77W 246
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Old December 7th, 2008, 04:45 PM   #758
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Quote:
It was a good thing in 2003, that the old airport terminal was still in use. It was great watching airplanes from the top deck, of a partially closed parking area.
I think a lot of people will tell you that they miss old Terminal 1` because of its plane spotting access- I remember going there on a regular basis, when I was young kid, but also as an adult - I remember watching my mom walk up the stairs onto a Martinair flight on the tarmac back in 1985- or even seeing Concorde roll in, all those years ago...

One thing is for certain, the real benefits of public viewing decks far outweigh the perceived negative ones. Not only does it provide a safe area for those plane enthusiasts, but it could be considered as a way in which the airport is reaching out to include the public in its daily operations, or at least show them what it is like to run an airport.

Even if the old T1 parking deck was an impromptu viewing area, the positive memories and impact it had on many thousands of people over the course of its life is irreplaceable. In my humble opinion, it proves one thing, that the GTAA new very little about Toronto's airport and that their actions were purely about expansion and nothing more- that new facility was being shopped around until it found its home in Toronto (meaning it could have been built anywhere).

Furthermore, there had been numerous requests for a viewing area, but the GTAA was against it, due to their fears of a terrorist attack - interestingly, London, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, and Paris all have viewing areas within and/or around their airports and I would imagine that these airports are at a far higher risk due to their prominence.

Nonetheless, we live in North America, where overblown American security issues are adopted and become our own.

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Old December 9th, 2008, 12:57 PM   #759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staff View Post
Plus there isn't currently a single direct flight between Canada and Scandinavia-- and using the strong Canada-India market could perhaps make such a route happen?
I believe Icelandair still flies direct to Halifax from Rekjavik.
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Old December 9th, 2008, 06:13 PM   #760
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Open Skies Deal Signed between Canada and the EU

hot off the press this morning....

EU, Canada reach deal on aviation pact

By CONSTANT BRAND – 1 hour ago

BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) — The European Union and Canada have reached a deal that will open up their aviation markets to each other, removing restrictions on ownership and direct flights, EU officials said Tuesday.

EU Transport Commissioner Antonio Tajani said the pact will lead to more trans-Atlantic trade and spur competition.

"The new agreement makes the EU-Canada market one of the most open in the world," Tajani said in a statement.

Under the deal, which is expected to come into force in the first half of 2009, airlines based in the 27-nation bloc will be able to operate direct flights to Canada from anywhere in Europe. It also removes restrictions on routes, prices and the number of flights allowed between the two sides. Similar access rights will be enjoyed by Canadian carriers to fly to the European market.

Airlines will also be able to launch new code-sharing agreements — which let them book passengers on one another's planes.

The deal is the most far-reaching and open aviation pact the EU has signed with a trade partner, and appears meant partly to pressure the United States to agree to upgrade its "open-skies" pact with the EU, which came into force earlier this year.

The EU-US deal still prevents European airlines from taking over U.S.-based airlines.

While the deal is likely to be good for more competitive airfares, it could spell trouble for Canada's two dominant airlines, Air Canada and its low-cost rival WestJet Airlines Ltd.

Air Canada went through bankruptcy earlier this decade, and when it emerged in 2004 it was losing customers to WestJet. The two airlines rely heavily on U.S.-bound routes.

The deal is estimated to bring economic benefits of at least euro72 million ($92.6 million) and more than 1,000 new jobs in its first year, the European Commission said. An EU study said an EU-Canada aviation pact could generate an additional 500,000 passengers a year on routes between Canada and the EU.
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