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Old June 6th, 2009, 05:58 PM   #921
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Air Canada is probably concerned because Emirates is likely going to wipe out expansion to India, which seems to be a key market given the large Indian population in Canada.
Weren't you the one who said that Air Canada's return to India/ Mumbai will never happen?
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Old June 6th, 2009, 06:03 PM   #922
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Originally Posted by YYZplanner View Post
Weren't you the one who said that Air Canada's return to India/ Mumbai will never happen?
Yes, especially due to the Emirates factor, and the fact AC makes more $ out of China with its limited supply of long-haul planes. Don't think Emirates has that problem.

AC tried to make India work, but if it meant moving planes away from lucrative routes to China, I don't think it'll be a wise choice. Flying an old gas-guzzling 767 to India would be far too costly.
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Old June 7th, 2009, 11:30 PM   #923
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Yes, especially due to the Emirates factor, and the fact AC makes more $ out of China with its limited supply of long-haul planes. Don't think Emirates has that problem.

AC tried to make India work, but if it meant moving planes away from lucrative routes to China, I don't think it'll be a wise choice. Flying an old gas-guzzling 767 to India would be far too costly.

So, would you say that if Air Canada gets their new aircraft which they ordered in like their 787's, would India be a priority for them then?
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Old June 9th, 2009, 04:48 PM   #924
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Originally Posted by YYZplanner View Post
So, would you say that if Air Canada gets their new aircraft which they ordered in like their 787's, would India be a priority for them then?
Not with Emirates on the plate now.
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Old June 9th, 2009, 07:22 PM   #925
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Originally Posted by YYZplanner View Post
Oh yes, sorry if I have offeded any Air Canada fans/ members on that false point I made. Yes, the CTA, they provide the best transport options to the canadian public. Giving Emirates more flgihts will not benifit the Canadian public according to yyzhyd. I mean, a really see a big help to the Canadian public of Emirates bringing in more flights. Also, Emirates offered Air Canada to fly into dubai, why doesn't Air Canada just do that? It will create competition in the Canadian market. Which means that it is actaully better for the economy. Giving Emirates more flights will also help the economy right now as of the curent economic crisis. Isn't that true?
I neither work for AC nor EK so I have no vested interest in either airline.
Yet I have clearly stated the rationale behind my opinions, however you continue to complain without stating the benefits of allowing Emirates additional access?
I'd like to know what you think the market size is of Canada-UAE passenger traffic & Cargo?

UAE and Canada have a bilateral negotiated by the respective governments Emirates Airlines did not offer Air Canada anything.
Fair competition would be if AC was allowed by UAE/EK to fly Canada-Dubai-South Asia with passengers going from Canada to South Asia.
No way UAE will allow this yet that is exactly what Emirates is doing. I don't see you screaming about unfair competition here?

In fact UAE has been given the opportunity as part of bilateral renegotiations to fly UNLIMITED flights between UAE-Canada for passengers whose origin is Canada and destination is UAE and vice versa.
UAE/EK/EY said no way, this is very revealing because despite all the crap about tourism & business to Dubai etc. there just isn't enough of a market which is why AC doesn't operate the route.
The EK/EY business plan is to capture the TRANSIT passengers through Dubai.
Nothing wrong with that plan... however Canada has the full (and justifiable) right to say no as it's not in Canada's interest.
As a Canadian I expect...no, DEMAND that Canadian agencies look out for the Canadian interests first and foremost.

Don't get me wrong I like Emirates and I have flown with them quite a few times and am currently a Skywards Gold Member as well as an Aeroplan Elite Member.
But if you're going to bitch and complain at least do some research and get your facts straight.
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Old June 9th, 2009, 08:51 PM   #926
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Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
I neither work for AC nor EK so I have no vested interest in either airline.
Yet I have clearly stated the rationale behind my opinions, however you continue to complain without stating the benefits of allowing Emirates additional access?
I'd like to know what you think the market size is of Canada-UAE passenger traffic & Cargo?

UAE and Canada have a bilateral negotiated by the respective governments Emirates Airlines did not offer Air Canada anything.
Fair competition would be if AC was allowed by UAE/EK to fly Canada-Dubai-South Asia with passengers going from Canada to South Asia.
No way UAE will allow this yet that is exactly what Emirates is doing. I don't see you screaming about unfair competition here?

In fact UAE has been given the opportunity as part of bilateral renegotiations to fly UNLIMITED flights between UAE-Canada for passengers whose origin is Canada and destination is UAE and vice versa.
UAE/EK/EY said no way, this is very revealing because despite all the crap about tourism & business to Dubai etc. there just isn't enough of a market which is why AC doesn't operate the route.
The EK/EY business plan is to capture the TRANSIT passengers through Dubai.
Nothing wrong with that plan... however Canada has the full (and justifiable) right to say no as it's not in Canada's interest.
As a Canadian I expect...no, DEMAND that Canadian agencies look out for the Canadian interests first and foremost.

Don't get me wrong I like Emirates and I have flown with them quite a few times and am currently a Skywards Gold Member as well as an Aeroplan Elite Member.
But if you're going to bitch and complain at least do some research and get your facts straight.
thnaks for that info.

Last edited by YYZplanner; June 9th, 2009 at 11:16 PM.
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Old June 9th, 2009, 08:57 PM   #927
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Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
I neither work for AC nor EK so I have no vested interest in either airline.
Yet I have clearly stated the rationale behind my opinions, however you continue to complain without stating the benefits of allowing Emirates additional access?
I'd like to know what you think the market size is of Canada-UAE passenger traffic & Cargo?

UAE and Canada have a bilateral negotiated by the respective governments Emirates Airlines did not offer Air Canada anything.
Fair competition would be if AC was allowed by UAE/EK to fly Canada-Dubai-South Asia with passengers going from Canada to South Asia.
No way UAE will allow this yet that is exactly what Emirates is doing. I don't see you screaming about unfair competition here?

In fact UAE has been given the opportunity as part of bilateral renegotiations to fly UNLIMITED flights between UAE-Canada for passengers whose origin is Canada and destination is UAE and vice versa.
UAE/EK/EY said no way, this is very revealing because despite all the crap about tourism & business to Dubai etc. there just isn't enough of a market which is why AC doesn't operate the route.
The EK/EY business plan is to capture the TRANSIT passengers through Dubai.
Nothing wrong with that plan... however Canada has the full (and justifiable) right to say no as it's not in Canada's interest.
As a Canadian I expect...no, DEMAND that Canadian agencies look out for the Canadian interests first and foremost.

Don't get me wrong I like Emirates and I have flown with them quite a few times and am currently a Skywards Gold Member as well as an Aeroplan Elite Member.
But if you're going to bitch and complain at least do some research and get your facts straight.
Sorry, but just a statement you made, you said that we offered singapore airlines unlimited aamount of flights a day in terms of travel and tourism. Why don't we do the same for Emirates then, in terms of travel and tourism? What's the market on that?
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Old June 9th, 2009, 09:33 PM   #928
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Originally Posted by YYZplanner View Post
Sorry, but just a statement you made, you said that we offered singapore airlines unlimited aamount of flights a day in terms of travel and tourism. Why don't we do the same for Emirates then, in terms of travel and tourism? What's the market on that?
Singapore was offered the following as part of a revised Bilateral Agreement negotiations in 2008 with Canada: UNLIMITED Non-Stop flights between Singapore and points in Canada (i.e. YVR, YYC, YYZ, YUL).

However Singapore Airlines' service to YVR was profitable only because of the substantial high-yield business/first class passengers on the Seoul - Vancouver leg of the flights. Therefore they asked that their 3x a week limit on picking up passengers originating from Seoul ICN be increased.
This amounts to skimming off the "cream" of the market to add to Singapore's profits but doesn't benefit Canada, S. Korea, nor the respective airlines of the two countries.
Canada has much greater economic ties to S. Korea than to Singapore therefore it was in Canada's interest to deny that and instead pursue an "Open Skies" deal with S. Korea. This deal has recently been consummated (although not announced) as some small details still need to be formalized.

UAE was also offered a similar deal when they asked to renegotiate the Bilateral Agreement with Canada. UAE airlines were offered UNLIMITED rights to Canada for passengers flying between Canada-UAE. This would help develop a new market i.e. Dubai where there is low demand.
However Emirates is looking to move passengers who currently fly one-stop to South Asia from YYZ via AF, AI, AY, AZ, BA, CO, CX, DL, LY, EY, FI, KE, KL, LH, SU, 9W and soon TK to EK.
Moving connecting passengers off several airlines onto one airline... essentially just changing the transit point in this case... is hardly about growing the economic ties between Dubai and Canada.

With all due respect to your studies in Business... I have been WORKING in the field as an Investment Banker for more than a decade so I know a thing or two about business and economics.
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Old June 9th, 2009, 11:04 PM   #929
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Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
Singapore was offered the following as part of a revised Bilateral Agreement negotiations in 2008 with Canada: UNLIMITED Non-Stop flights between Singapore and points in Canada (i.e. YVR, YYC, YYZ, YUL).

However Singapore Airlines' service to YVR was profitable only because of the substantial high-yield business/first class passengers on the Seoul - Vancouver leg of the flights. Therefore they asked that their 3x a week limit on picking up passengers originating from Seoul ICN be increased.
This amounts to skimming off the "cream" of the market to add to Singapore's profits but doesn't benefit Canada, S. Korea, nor the respective airlines of the two countries.
Canada has much greater economic ties to S. Korea than to Singapore therefore it was in Canada's interest to deny that and instead pursue an "Open Skies" deal with S. Korea. This deal has recently been consummated (although not announced) as some small details still need to be formalized.

UAE was also offered a similar deal when they asked to renegotiate the Bilateral Agreement with Canada. UAE airlines were offered UNLIMITED rights to Canada for passengers flying between Canada-UAE. This would help develop a new market i.e. Dubai where there is low demand.
However Emirates is looking to move passengers who currently fly one-stop to South Asia from YYZ via AF, AI, AY, AZ, BA, CO, CX, DL, LY, EY, FI, KE, KL, LH, SU, 9W and soon TK to EK.
Moving connecting passengers off several airlines onto one airline... essentially just changing the transit point in this case... is hardly about growing the economic ties between Dubai and Canada.

With all due respect to your studies in Business... I have been WORKING in the field as an Investment Banker for more than a decade so I know a thing or two about business and economics.
Thanks for that really helpful inormation. It really helped, and yes, it really does make sense as to prove your point. Can you maybe give me the facts as to where you got this information from? I mean in the middle east, Canada has the strongest tie with the UAE. And I think 3 weekly flights is enough from toronto unless the demand gets higher which I am expecting it to grow. This also explains why new york gives emirates more flights a day, as many business people, and passengers live in dubai and new york. But is singapore airlines still staying in toronto now given the fact that they can bring in unlimited amounts of flights a day? And if Ethopian airlines plans on coming, I'm pretty sure there would be a high demand for the airline as toronto has the third highest ethopian group in north america. Once again, thanks yyzhyd.

Last edited by YYZplanner; June 9th, 2009 at 11:34 PM.
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Old June 9th, 2009, 11:24 PM   #930
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Originally Posted by YYZplanner View Post
Thanks for that really helpful inormation. It really helped. But, why doesn't the airport give more flights a day to any airline as it creates more jobs due to the recession as of now?
You're welcome.
Bilateral Air Traffic Agreements are made by Federal Governments not individual airports.
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Old June 10th, 2009, 12:26 AM   #931
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yyzhyd,

Didn't president of Etihad Airways say that he would love to see a canadian airline fly into the UAE anytime of the day? I think it was on page 36, as TObermudda has posted that. So technically, isn't air canada and westjet allowed to fly into Abu Dhabi and Dubai? And so, shouldn't Etihad get more increased flights to toronto as opposed to emirates then given the above information? Because, its kinda obvious, majority of the passenger on Etihad airways are actually transferring to dubai by bus? Isn't that true?
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Old June 10th, 2009, 02:41 AM   #932
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Originally Posted by YYZplanner View Post
yyzhyd,

Didn't president of Etihad Airways say that he would love to see a canadian airline fly into the UAE anytime of the day? I think it was on page 36, as TObermudda has posted that. So technically, isn't air canada and westjet allowed to fly into Abu Dhabi and Dubai? And so, shouldn't Etihad get more increased flights to toronto as opposed to emirates then given the above information? Because, its kinda obvious, majority of the passenger on Etihad airways are actually transferring to dubai by bus? Isn't that true?
So what if Sheikh Zayed Al Nahyan or James Hogan say they'd like to see a Canadian airline? They know full well there isn't enough of a market of O/D travellers for one airline let alone multiple carriers.

Yes Air Canada is a designated airline in the UAE-Canada bilateral, therefore Air Canada could start services. Westjet is not designated.

What does transfers by Bus from Abu Dhabi to Dubai have to do with anything?
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Old June 10th, 2009, 04:45 AM   #933
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always interesting posts, yyzhyd....

hopefully Transport Canada will get around to announcing the South Korean deal soon, at least in time for the winter schedule...that's a major agreement that will benefit everybody....

As for EK and EY...everything you say is surely true, although I can also see giving them a token increase in frequencies, in the name of promoting business...

Where all these foreign carriers provide a real service to the Canadian travelling public, is in providing connecting service to countries with which Canada has no bilateral air agreement at all....places like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, and Iran...there is major traffic to all these places from YYZ (much of which travels on Emirates), but until our government gets around to implementing air agreements, even if they are only for codesharing, the only way there will be with foreign carriers...

I know there are a lot of political considerations which play into the possibility or non-possibility of negotiations with countries such as these, but the business is there..

And YYZplanner, I do hope we will see ET here at Toronto one day - they would be successful, I am sure...fifth freedoms to FCO would help them, imo...
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Old June 10th, 2009, 08:17 PM   #934
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So what if Sheikh Zayed Al Nahyan or James Hogan say they'd like to see a Canadian airline? They know full well there isn't enough of a market of O/D travellers for one airline let alone multiple carriers.

Yes Air Canada is a designated airline in the UAE-Canada bilateral, therefore Air Canada could start services. Westjet is not designated.

What does transfers by Bus from Abu Dhabi to Dubai have to do with anything?
The point I was trying to make was that a lot of people would take etihad airways instead of emirates mainly due to the fact that Eithad majority of the time contains cheaper airline tickets than emirates. So, many travel to Abu Dhabi and then to dubai rather than going direct on Emirates. I think that's the reason why Emirates and Etihad are in a way rivalries/ competing., and do you know if AC will start flights to the UAE soon or when the market gets bigger between the two countires? Will dubai be a priority first or Abu Dhabi for AC?
And by the way, thanks for that helpful info yyzhyd. You are definately well educated on this issues.
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Old June 10th, 2009, 08:39 PM   #935
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always interesting posts, yyzhyd....

hopefully Transport Canada will get around to announcing the South Korean deal soon, at least in time for the winter schedule...that's a major agreement that will benefit everybody....

As for EK and EY...everything you say is surely true, although I can also see giving them a token increase in frequencies, in the name of promoting business...

Where all these foreign carriers provide a real service to the Canadian travelling public, is in providing connecting service to countries with which Canada has no bilateral air agreement at all....places like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, and Iran...there is major traffic to all these places from YYZ (much of which travels on Emirates), but until our government gets around to implementing air agreements, even if they are only for codesharing, the only way there will be with foreign carriers...

I know there are a lot of political considerations which play into the possibility or non-possibility of negotiations with countries such as these, but the business is there..

And YYZplanner, I do hope we will see ET here at Toronto one day - they would be successful, I am sure...fifth freedoms to FCO would help them, imo...
Thanks yyzer.
Yeah I think eventually both Etihad and Emirates will get daily service.
But probably after QR gets daily service rights on which AC will promptly add their codeshare. Then we'll see how strong that Canada-Dubai market is.


This is for yyzplanner:

Canadian exports to India ($Billions) 2.4
Canadian imports from India ($Billions) 2.2
(Air India - B777 and Jet Airways - A330 fly to YYZ only, AC doesn't fly to India)

Canadian exports to Japan ($Billions) 11.1
Canadian imports from Japan ($Billions) 15.3
(Japan Airlines only flies to YVR - B747, no ANA flights, AC flies to NRT from YVR and YYZ)

Canadian exports to Australia ($Billions) 2.1
Canadian imports from Australia ($Billions) 2.3
(Qantas doesn't fly to Canada, AC flies to SYD from YVR and YYZ)

Canadian imports from Italy ($Billions) 5
(Alitalia only flies to YYZ - 767, AC flies to FCO from YYZ)

Then look at these numbers....
Canadian exports to UAE ($Millions) 787.36
Canadian imports from UAE ($Millions) 94.08
Yet we have 3x Weekly A380 service and 3x weekly B77W... Doesn't that seem disproportionate?
Not to mention EK wants unlimited flights into Canada.

link: http://www.international.gc.ca/inter....aspx?lang=eng

Last edited by yyzhyd; June 10th, 2009 at 08:43 PM. Reason: added link to data source
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Old June 10th, 2009, 10:56 PM   #936
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Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
Thanks yyzer.
Yeah I think eventually both Etihad and Emirates will get daily service.
But probably after QR gets daily service rights on which AC will promptly add their codeshare. Then we'll see how strong that Canada-Dubai market is.


This is for yyzplanner:

Canadian exports to India ($Billions) 2.4
Canadian imports from India ($Billions) 2.2
(Air India - B777 and Jet Airways - A330 fly to YYZ only, AC doesn't fly to India)

Canadian exports to Japan ($Billions) 11.1
Canadian imports from Japan ($Billions) 15.3
(Japan Airlines only flies to YVR - B747, no ANA flights, AC flies to NRT from YVR and YYZ)

Canadian exports to Australia ($Billions) 2.1
Canadian imports from Australia ($Billions) 2.3
(Qantas doesn't fly to Canada, AC flies to SYD from YVR and YYZ)

Canadian imports from Italy ($Billions) 5
(Alitalia only flies to YYZ - 767, AC flies to FCO from YYZ)

Then look at these numbers....
Canadian exports to UAE ($Millions) 787.36
Canadian imports from UAE ($Millions) 94.08
Yet we have 3x Weekly A380 service and 3x weekly B77W... Doesn't that seem disproportionate?
Not to mention EK wants unlimited flights into Canada.

link: http://www.international.gc.ca/inter....aspx?lang=eng
Thanks a lot yyhyd! It shows how much imprts and exports there are between countries and canada. Okay, you know I am a question making machine, so please bear with it. Okay,

1. Why does Emirates and Etihad serve together only 6x weekly flights when the exports and imports are very high? Does it have to do with the other means of transporation( ex. ships, pipelines, etc?)

2. Okay, how will the canada- dubai market get stonger if QR gets daily service from AC's codeshare?

3. And, I was at the airport, and I see Qantas airlines, as well as Japan airlines on the flights schedual screen. Also, if you go on the gtaa website, it shows many times Qantas, and Japan airlines have arived in toronto. What's up with that? Also, I have seen Swiss int'l airlines arrive in toronto once. Didn't you say in the previous forums that swiss doesn't fly to toronto?

4. Is it obvious that AC will serve the countries in which right now it doesn't that it has close ties with like India?

Once again, I apologize for soo many questions, but I really want to learn about this, and I think you are very educated on this matter.
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Old June 11th, 2009, 01:01 AM   #937
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YYZplanner View Post
Thanks a lot yyhyd! It shows how much imprts and exports there are between countries and canada. Okay, you know I am a question making machine, so please bear with it. Okay,

1. Why does Emirates and Etihad serve together only 6x weekly flights when the exports and imports are very high? Does it have to do with the other means of transporation( ex. ships, pipelines, etc?)

2. Okay, how will the canada- dubai market get stonger if QR gets daily service from AC's codeshare?

3. And, I was at the airport, and I see Qantas airlines, as well as Japan airlines on the flights schedual screen. Also, if you go on the gtaa website, it shows many times Qantas, and Japan airlines have arived in toronto. What's up with that? Also, I have seen Swiss int'l airlines arrive in toronto once. Didn't you say in the previous forums that swiss doesn't fly to toronto?

4. Is it obvious that AC will serve the countries in which right now it doesn't that it has close ties with like India?

Once again, I apologize for soo many questions, but I really want to learn about this, and I think you are very educated on this matter.
I thought I might take a stab at some of these:

1. The Current Canada-UAE bilateral agreement only allows for 6 direct flights a week by either country's carriers between the two nations. Ie. UAE carriers (in this case Etihad and Emirates) are only allowed 6 flights per week shared between them. If/when Air Canada starts service to the UAE (which in my mind is highly doubtful in the foreseeable future) they would also be limited to 6 flights per week, or less if another Canadian carrier should decide to beat Air Canada to it.

2. The Canada-UAE market for air travel will only likely grow with increased trade and business between the two countries. While the airlines prattle on about increased tourism, most airlines are well aware that stable lucrative (read first/business class) markets will likely only exist between two cities if the business links are strong. Keep in mind I am only referring to O&D markets, and not connections, as Emirates is currently dependent upon for their Toronto flights.

3. Qantas, JAL, and Swiss are all codeshare flights. Same goes for Singapore Airlines, ANA, BMI, SAS, etc.

4. I don't see Air Canada serving India again until the 787s arrive (ie after 2012) mainly because they have tried to flying to Delhi nonstop and failed to make a profit even with full loads. They also attempted to fly one-stops via Zurich which also didn't work. I believe they currently codeshare with Swiss to both Delhi and Mumbai but I'm not completely sure. I don't think there is much point for AC in trying another one-stop venture into India with it's own metal since there is an enormous amount of choice for Canadians:BA, AF, LH, LX, OS, 9W, AI via Europe and EY, EK, and soon TK via the Middle East. As much as I like AC, I think they would be hard pressed to create an advantage for themselves in the current market unless they are able to profitably serve India non-stop.

Just my
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Old June 11th, 2009, 02:33 AM   #938
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On a separate note, does anyone know if there have been any official announcements made with regard to:

1) TK's start date for Toronto
2) The new Canada-Korea bilateral

Thanks.
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Old June 11th, 2009, 05:50 AM   #939
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YYZplanner View Post
Thanks a lot yyhyd! It shows how much imprts and exports there are between countries and canada. Okay, you know I am a question making machine, so please bear with it. Okay,

1. Why does Emirates and Etihad serve together only 6x weekly flights when the exports and imports are very high? Does it have to do with the other means of transporation( ex. ships, pipelines, etc?)

2. Okay, how will the canada- dubai market get stonger if QR gets daily service from AC's codeshare?

3. And, I was at the airport, and I see Qantas airlines, as well as Japan airlines on the flights schedual screen. Also, if you go on the gtaa website, it shows many times Qantas, and Japan airlines have arived in toronto. What's up with that? Also, I have seen Swiss int'l airlines arrive in toronto once. Didn't you say in the previous forums that swiss doesn't fly to toronto?

4. Is it obvious that AC will serve the countries in which right now it doesn't that it has close ties with like India?

Once again, I apologize for soo many questions, but I really want to learn about this, and I think you are very educated on this matter.
1. Did you read the data? Imports and Exports are NOT HIGH compared with the other countries yet they want MORE flights??
Additionally it has been mentioned on repeated occasions already and most recently by canuckbanana: The current Canada-UAE bilateral agreement only allows for max. 6 flights a week by either country.

2. No relationship to EK other than we'll see how full EK flights are when they can experience QR with their amazing service and earn Aeroplan Miles!!

3. As canuckbanana has mentioned... those are all codeshare flights. Although Qantas did serve YYZ with 767s on a SYD-HNL-YYZ routing just before 9/11.

4. Not necessarily... Airlines are not in the business of providing a social service to expats in any given country/city. They usually will only fly routes which are profitable whether that is from high yielding first/business class passengers or Cargo.
IMHO, I think AC has made a strategic error on India by operating to DEL instead of BOM. DEL is notoriously delay prone in the winter due to Fog which can really hamper the image of a "new" airline in the market. Not to mention DEL is primarily a government town.
BOM however is the business & finance capital of India, and home of the massive Bollywood film industry... lots of natural links with YYZ.

Last edited by yyzhyd; June 11th, 2009 at 05:58 AM.
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Old June 11th, 2009, 08:25 AM   #940
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We also need to understand Emirates' business model is a transfer carrier, meaning they funnel traffic from countries that may not support sole direct service, but offer transfer flights through Dubai. We see this on the kangaroo route - Emirates is a major player in Australia, moving people to Europe via Dubai. I suspect they've analyzed the enormous Indian population in Canada as a huge potential to funnel transfer traffic to India via Dubai. Once they succeed, the barrier to entry for AC will be even greater, as Emirates has a far greater advantage and reach within India than merely DEL or BOM.

Hence, I fully agree EK is a predatory carrier.
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