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Old July 28th, 2009, 07:13 PM   #1001
yyzhyd
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Ethiopian to Toronto?

If you remember back to August 2007... ET's CEO Girma Wake stated he was in negotiations with Canada for a bilateral agreement.
Well ET announced today that they have purchased 17 new long-haul aircraft... which might mean YYZ service is closer to reality.

http://www.ethiopianairlines.com/en/news/default.aspx

"In an unprecedented move ever, Ethiopian has placed an order for five B777-200LRs from the Boeing Company and twelve A350-900s from Airbus. Ethiopian will begin taking deliveries of the B777-200LR in October, 2010 and the A-350-900 in 2017..."

between the new 77Ls and the 787s to be received in 2010 non-stop service ADD-YYZ would be possible. Stay tuned...
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Old July 28th, 2009, 09:13 PM   #1002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
EK could have had 6x weekly to start back in 2002... but tried to bully the CTA into giving daily rights to YYZ. CTA said why don't you start serving YYZ and we can see about an increase later.
The EK North America Region manager refused and said we'll do daily or nothing... so the CTA said that's your choice.
EY came in and took 3 of those 6 frequencies in 2003. When all this broke among the EK executives the regional manager was promptly fired.
EK decided it better start service with the remaining 3 frequencies or else risk being shut out completely from Canada.

EK needs Canada far more than Canada needs EK... therefore the CTA is in a position to play hardball. EK's temper tantrums are not helping it's cause.

Eventually EK and EY will get reasonable access which may not be exactly what they want... could be something like 28x weekly to Canada:
EK
YYZ - 2x daily
YVR - 1x daily

EY
YYZ - 1x daily

But this will not happen by trying to bully Canada into it.
Indirectly, if they build a very strong franchise in New York or Boston, then partner with a US carrier, perhaps they will be able to draw Canadians to fly out of a US hub without actually increasing flights to Canada?

I'm thinking more on India for this. They fly to quite a lot of Indian cities, and the frequencies may draw people from changing planes in London, although doing this would add 1 more transit point - US + Dubai.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 02:25 PM   #1003
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I think so too. Everything started to go downfall when EY came in. They had to split those 6 weekly flights. That is the main cause why they fly A380 in YYZ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
EK could have had 6x weekly to start back in 2002... but tried to bully the CTA into giving daily rights to YYZ. CTA said why don't you start serving YYZ and we can see about an increase later.
The EK North America Region manager refused and said we'll do daily or nothing... so the CTA said that's your choice.
EY came in and took 3 of those 6 frequencies in 2003. When all this broke among the EK executives the regional manager was promptly fired.
EK decided it better start service with the remaining 3 frequencies or else risk being shut out completely from Canada.

EK needs Canada far more than Canada needs EK... therefore the CTA is in a position to play hardball. EK's temper tantrums are not helping it's cause.

Eventually EK and EY will get reasonable access which may not be exactly what they want... could be something like 28x weekly to Canada:
EK
YYZ - 2x daily
YVR - 1x daily

EY
YYZ - 1x daily

But this will not happen by trying to bully Canada into it.
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Old July 29th, 2009, 03:41 PM   #1004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Indirectly, if they build a very strong franchise in New York or Boston, then partner with a US carrier, perhaps they will be able to draw Canadians to fly out of a US hub without actually increasing flights to Canada?

I'm thinking more on India for this. They fly to quite a lot of Indian cities, and the frequencies may draw people from changing planes in London, although doing this would add 1 more transit point - US + Dubai.
While this is definitely possible; the added aggravation of clearing US customs and immigration, not to mention the airport transfer between LGA-JFK in New York is major deterrent.
ORD might be a slightly better option than JFK if/when EK begins service there sometime in the future .
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Old July 30th, 2009, 06:23 AM   #1005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
EK could have had 6x weekly to start back in 2002... but tried to bully the CTA into giving daily rights to YYZ. CTA said why don't you start serving YYZ and we can see about an increase later.
The EK North America Region manager refused and said we'll do daily or nothing... so the CTA said that's your choice.
EY came in and took 3 of those 6 frequencies in 2003. When all this broke among the EK executives the regional manager was promptly fired.
EK decided it better start service with the remaining 3 frequencies or else risk being shut out completely from Canada.

EK needs Canada far more than Canada needs EK... therefore the CTA is in a position to play hardball. EK's temper tantrums are not helping it's cause.

Eventually EK and EY will get reasonable access which may not be exactly what they want... could be something like 28x weekly to Canada:
EK
YYZ - 2x daily
YVR - 1x daily

EY
YYZ - 1x daily

But this will not happen by trying to bully Canada into it.


Very interesting post yyzhyd!!!!!!!!!! It really shows the stubborness of EK- it seems as though they are playing more greedy than EY. But, isn't there a possibility that EY and Ek will get increased access to YYZ when QR comes for business purposes? And by the way, has Canada and Qatar signed the bilateral airline agreement yet? What's taken it so long? Hope to see them in september as you have stated in the past yyzhyd!
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Old July 30th, 2009, 03:56 PM   #1006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YYZplanner View Post
Very interesting post yyzhyd!!!!!!!!!! It really shows the stubborness of EK- it seems as though they are playing more greedy than EY. But, isn't there a possibility that EY and Ek will get increased access to YYZ when QR comes for business purposes? And by the way, has Canada and Qatar signed the bilateral airline agreement yet? What's taken it so long? Hope to see them in september as you have stated in the past yyzhyd!
EK/EY and QR are two different situations and are not dependent on eachother nor would EK/EY be able to use it as leverage.

Not sure what's happening with the Qatar-Canada bilateral... I've been away from the discussion for a while now. I'll try and do some digging... but with the delays September 2009 is not possible now.
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Old July 30th, 2009, 11:33 PM   #1007
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hey guiss new to the forum,
i am from calgary, alberta

its a very ineresting forum and i really like it.
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Old July 31st, 2009, 01:02 AM   #1008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YU-AMC View Post
I think so too. Everything started to go downfall when EY came in. They had to split those 6 weekly flights. That is the main cause why they fly A380 in YYZ.
Etihad started flights to Canada before Emirates!!! so EY lost out....not EK!!
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Old July 31st, 2009, 04:30 PM   #1009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killerk View Post
Etihad started flights to Canada before Emirates!!! so EY lost out....not EK!!
EK= Emirates
EY= Etihad

So YU-AMC is indeed correct.
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Old July 31st, 2009, 06:37 PM   #1010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
EK= Emirates
EY= Etihad

So YU-AMC is indeed correct.
What I was saying was that Etihad (EY) started first with 3 flights a week
and then Emirates (EK) with another 3 about a year later (around 10-11 months later, if I remember correctly)....that gave Etihad no chance to increase their flights from 3 to 6 allotted for UAE based carriers!!

so who lost out...the one that came first...which was Etihad (EY)!!
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Old July 31st, 2009, 11:49 PM   #1011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killerk View Post
What I was saying was that Etihad (EY) started first with 3 flights a week
and then Emirates (EK) with another 3 about a year later (around 10-11 months later, if I remember correctly)....that gave Etihad no chance to increase their flights from 3 to 6 allotted for UAE based carriers!!

so who lost out...the one that came first...which was Etihad (EY)!!

Yeah, you're so true killerk. I mean, I'm not sure why Etihad did not take the 6 weekly flights instead of taking the 3?
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Old August 2nd, 2009, 08:19 PM   #1012
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Just googling around, and came across this, published in South African business magazine 'Business Day'.......there is no official announcement by Transport Canada yet, but it looks like there may be flights from YYZ-JNB soon...

SA skies ready for 10% air traffic growth a year for next decade

JULIUS BAUMANN Published: 2009/07/21 06:35:04 AM

THE Department of Transport believes it has created enough air capacity — for both cargo and passenger services — to meet growth in demand for the next 10 to 15 years.

“We are comfortable that our agreements provide enough capacity for growth of 10% a year for the next decade,” Anwar Gany, chief director of civil aviation, said yesterday. It is a vital process that has seen the skies over SA open up to competition.

Scheduled international flights are strictly regulated by an intricate web of air policy agreements between nations, defining when, where and how airlines may fly between any two points on the globe. However, SA has been opening the air market with a more liberal approach to competition.

This process was largely driven by the Airlift Strategy, approved by the government in 2006, which aimed to create capacity ahead of demand and fram e the agenda of any future bilateral negotiations.

Among the key successes is the recent conclusion of an agreement between SA and Canada for the first time since negotiations began in 1977. The agreement allows for three frequencies from this year, increasing to five in 2012 and daily flights in 2015.

Gany said no airline had taken up the frequencies but it could pave the way for airlines such as South African Airways (SAA) and Air Canada to enter into a code-share on routes between the two countries.


In the past two years the department, under the stewardship of Gany, and chief negotiator Vuwani Ndwamato, have renegotiated virtually every bilateral agreement and put in place new agreements .

Ndwamato said that the next challenge was opening up competition on the continent. While several African nations had agreed years ago to liberalise in terms of the Yamoussoukro Decision, few have.

“Our aim is to open up the continent country by country. We have made substantial process in west, east and north Africa,” Ndwamato said . “However, the Sadc region remains problematic.”

Its talks with the European Union are another big challenge. The EU last year removed virtually all restrictions on EU carriers, allowing them to operate anywhere in Europe.
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Old August 3rd, 2009, 10:04 AM   #1013
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I wonder if EK has a certain check in counter for their first class elite customers? I just want to take a lookie when I am at the airport. Curious to see those that are paying 10k+ to travel to Dubai in style .
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Old August 4th, 2009, 03:44 PM   #1014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YYZplanner View Post
Yeah, you're so true killerk. I mean, I'm not sure why Etihad did not take the 6 weekly flights instead of taking the 3?
It was simply a lack of enough aircraft to do this route 6x weekly at the time.
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Old August 5th, 2009, 07:12 PM   #1015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
It was simply a lack of enough aircraft to do this route 6x weekly at the time.
ohhh, well that explains thing then, it looks like emirates lost out big then. They could have had all 6 flights if they took it in 2002. Too bad for them.
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Old August 6th, 2009, 01:13 AM   #1016
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Canada - South Africa Air Agreement

Well, it's official - Canada and South Africa have signed a first-ever Air Agreement between the two countries which will allow direct flights from YYZ to JNB....here is the press release..

No. H 111/09
For release - August 5, 2009

Canada and South Africa reach Blue Sky air transport agreement


OTTAWA — Canada's Transport Minister, John Baird, and Minister of International Trade and Minister for the Asia-Pacific Gateway, Stockwell Day, today announced the successful conclusion of an air transport agreement with the Government of the Republic of South Africa. This first-time bilateral agreement allows scheduled direct air services to be operated between Canada and South Africa.

"South Africa is the 48th country since 2006 with which our Government has signed or updated an air agreement," said Minister Baird. "Under the leadership of Prime Minister Stephen Harper, our Government has moved forward at this unprecedented pace because ultimately travellers and shippers want choice in destinations, flights and routes, and better options for lower fares."

"The agreement will permit our citizens to fly more easily to South Africa, a regional hub for trade and investment," said Minister Day. "We are opening doors around the world for Canadian business and these air transport agreements encourage and support economic activity at home and abroad."

The agreement provides rights for airlines to operate passenger and all-cargo flights between the two countries with routing and pricing flexibility. Airlines may also choose to offer air services using the flights of other airlines, commonly known as code-sharing services. The agreement contains strong provisions dealing with aviation safety and security, reflecting the importance that both countries attach to these subjects.

The provisions of the agreement are being applied administratively prior to final signature of the agreement. This allows new air services to be introduced immediately.

Canada's Blue Sky policy encourages competition and the development of new and expanded international air services to benefit Canadian travellers, shippers, and the tourism and business sectors.

Since January 2006, the Government of Canada signed or updated Air Service Agreements with 48 countries:

Eight Open Skies-type agreements: United Kingdom, Ireland, Iceland, New Zealand, Barbados, Dominican Republic, Costa Rica, South Korea, and South Africa;
Six expanded agreements: Portugal, Mexico, Japan, Jordan, Singapore and Philippines;
Six new agreements: Algeria, Kuwait, Serbia, Croatia, Panama and Turkey; and
A comprehensive air transport agreement between Canada and the European Union's 27 Member States. This includes Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Slovakia and Slovenia with which Canada did not previously have air agreements.
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Old August 6th, 2009, 01:01 PM   #1017
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Hmm ... that's a long flight ... with a stop in Europe I presume?
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Old August 6th, 2009, 03:57 PM   #1018
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My guess would be through JNB-ACC-YYZ with SA operating the route.

Interesting tidbit on frequencies... reports state that:
3x weekly starting immediately
5x weekly in 2012
7x weekly in 2015

Emirates are you listening?
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Old August 6th, 2009, 06:48 PM   #1019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
My guess would be through JNB-ACC-YYZ with SA operating the route.

Interesting tidbit on frequencies... reports state that:
3x weekly starting immediately
5x weekly in 2012
7x weekly in 2015

Emirates are you listening?
Does Emirates have rights to stop in Europe and perhaps do 5th freedom? Perhaps they can aim for a non-AC city and pick up some transatlantic traffic along the way?
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Old August 6th, 2009, 07:42 PM   #1020
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Does Emirates have rights to stop in Europe and perhaps do 5th freedom? Perhaps they can aim for a non-AC city and pick up some transatlantic traffic along the way?
No they don't...Europeans know that would be suicide for the local airlines...plus all three Emirates, Qatar and Etihad know that would just mess up their almost close to perfect hub-spoke system.....the only time that was'nt the case was when "Sri Lankan" was partly owned by them till around 1-2 years ago...(they got their highly valuable landing slots in Heathrow)..
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