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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:12 PM   #1261
YYZplanner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
If there was a legitimate concern that the airline was unsafe or their security procedures were lax then maybe you have a case to prevent them from flying.
But why only to Canada & US? The citizens of other countries deserve to be protected too.
As a counterpoint, there are lots bombings in Israel too, that doesn't mean that ELAL shouldn't fly internationally.

There's internal trouble (separatist movements, civil wars etc.) in many many countries around the world... Spain, Thailand, Turkey, Ireland, Columbia etc.
Very good post yyzhyd! Very educated person! Yes, what you are saying does make sense and yes you are right. One thing though, how do you explain Air Canada's plan of travelling to Lebanon? Like it was the Americans that said it was unsafe to fly there, so why did Air Canada stop its service from going there because of the American pressure?
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Old March 16th, 2010, 07:14 PM   #1262
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Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
Being supported by the government during a bankruptcy is one thing... it's quite another when the your state-sponsor/owner has an agreement to buy any unsold seats so you can feign profitability.

Don't get me wrong, I like flying EK. In fact I'm flying with them in three weeks and wish they had a daily flight to Toronto as it would make scheduling my travel plans easier. But they are what they are and to try and portray them as anything even resembling AC, or the late CP is comparing apples to oranges.
Interesting, do you know when the Canadian market will give those daily flights to Emirates and Etihad? I mean, in the article it said that Air Canada wanted to increase its service to Africa
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Old March 16th, 2010, 10:53 PM   #1263
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Well they are smart by using an A380 to get around this with a loophole.

Only allowed a certain amount of flights out of an airport? Use big birds, their capacity equals that to several smaller airplanes.

The A380 out of Toronto is a good example. A380s can also lessen congestion at airports and are more fuel efficient.

Sure there will be less flights per day that may be bad for customers, but the flights will be quicker and more direct.

Big birds are awesome:
image hosted on flickr
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Old March 16th, 2010, 11:18 PM   #1264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
But is Canada prepared to give EK 5th freedom as well?

I don't quite buy the thought that Canada can successfully become a transit hub for US passengers, not for Europe. They're far better connected. For South America, go to Miami. Asia might be a bit different, but a transit in Toronto results in a significant cost increase thanks to high fees and taxes.
I don't see why not, there really are not a lot of onward destinations I can think of from YYZ or YVR that make sense for EK to use 5th freedoms on. Unless of course they want to do a RTW flight like UA used to do back in the day.

Actually there are a fair number of people from the USA who connect via YYZ on to Europe and other destinations. Granted most are Star Alliance members flying on UA or US (and now CO) codeshare flights... but they do exist.
Plus the USA's transit visa rule has been a positive for AC's South American operations as witnessed by the larger aircraft being deployed to those destinations.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 11:26 PM   #1265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YYZplanner View Post
Very good post yyzhyd! Very educated person! Yes, what you are saying does make sense and yes you are right. One thing though, how do you explain Air Canada's plan of travelling to Lebanon? Like it was the Americans that said it was unsafe to fly there, so why did Air Canada stop its service from going there because of the American pressure?
YUL-BEY non-stop service was cut because the Americans were all hyped up about their perception of lax security at BEY airport not because it was unsafe to fly there. Americans would have preferred a one-stop service via Europe so that there was a secondary screening of pax.
The one-stop was a non-starter for AC as their plan was to give a non-stop flight that could and would steal pax from BA/KL/AF's one-stop services.
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Old March 17th, 2010, 06:27 AM   #1266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
I don't see why not, there really are not a lot of onward destinations I can think of from YYZ or YVR that make sense for EK to use 5th freedoms on. Unless of course they want to do a RTW flight like UA used to do back in the day.

Actually there are a fair number of people from the USA who connect via YYZ on to Europe and other destinations. Granted most are Star Alliance members flying on UA or US (and now CO) codeshare flights... but they do exist.
Plus the USA's transit visa rule has been a positive for AC's South American operations as witnessed by the larger aircraft being deployed to those destinations.
The transit visa applies to American passengers flying out from the US?

The likelihood of an American passenger flying via AC is heavily diminished by the huge fees of using YYZ. Besides, AC's Europe network is very limited compared to the American carriers. New York - London is actually a very competitive and cheap sector.
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Old March 17th, 2010, 06:08 PM   #1267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The transit visa applies to American passengers flying out from the US?

The likelihood of an American passenger flying via AC is heavily diminished by the huge fees of using YYZ. Besides, AC's Europe network is very limited compared to the American carriers. New York - London is actually a very competitive and cheap sector.
two separate points...
1. Transit visa is required for South Americans flying via USA to Europe/Asia, whereas transitting Canada is visa-free.

2. CO & DL/NW definitely have much larger presence in Europe.
However, my point was that most US pax connecting via YYZ to Europe are primarily from Star Alliance partners UA & US.

AC
1. London LHR
2. Frankfurt FRA
3. Munich MUC
4. Zurich ZRH
5. Dublin DUB
6. Paris CDG
7. Madrid MAD
8. Rome FCO
9. Athens ATH
10. Barcelona BCN
11. Geneva GVA

UA
1. London LHR
2. Frankfurt FRA
3. Munich MUC
4. Brussels BRU
5. Geneva GVA
6. Zurich ZRH
7. Amsterdam AMS
8. Paris CDG
9. Rome FCO
10. Moscow SVO

US
1. London LHR
2. Frankfurt FRA
3. Munich MUC
4. Manchester MAN
5. Dublin DUB
6. Amsterdam AMS
7. Paris CDG
8. Madrid MAD
9. Rome FCO

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Old March 17th, 2010, 06:44 PM   #1268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
two separate points...
1. Transit visa is required for South Americans flying via USA to Europe/Asia, whereas transitting Canada is visa-free.

2. CO & DL/NW definitely have much larger presence in Europe.
However, my point was that most US pax connecting via YYZ to Europe are primarily from Star Alliance partners UA & US.

AC
1. London LHR
2. Frankfurt FRA
3. Munich MUC
4. Zurich ZRH
5. Dublin DUB
6. Paris CDG
7. Madrid MAD
8. Rome FCO
9. Athens ATH
10. Barcelona BCN
11. Geneva GVA

UA
1. London LHR
2. Frankfurt FRA
3. Munich MUC
4. Brussels BRU
5. Geneva GVA
6. Zurich ZRH
7. Amsterdam AMS
8. Paris CDG
9. Rome FCO
10. Moscow SVO

US
1. London LHR
2. Frankfurt FRA
3. Munich MUC
4. Manchester MAN
5. Dublin DUB
6. Amsterdam AMS
7. Paris CDG
8. Madrid MAD
9. Rome FCO

South America - Canada - Europe? Don't the likes of Iberia and TAP have a heavy presence in South America due to former colonial ties? The prices should be competitive given only 1 carrier all the way through and they won't be paying fuel charges and security fees twice.

I'm curious to see some transit passenger stats for Toronto.
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Old March 17th, 2010, 08:01 PM   #1269
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Air Canada rescheduled the flight to the south cone.

Used to be: YYZ-SCL-EZE
And now: YYZ-EZE-SCL (x5 a week)
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Old March 17th, 2010, 11:55 PM   #1270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
South America - Canada - Europe? Don't the likes of Iberia and TAP have a heavy presence in South America due to former colonial ties? The prices should be competitive given only 1 carrier all the way through and they won't be paying fuel charges and security fees twice.

I'm curious to see some transit passenger stats for Toronto.
My point was not about non-stops so I'm not sure where you're going with this... it was about AC capturing the pax with one-stop itineraries via USA.

Of course IB and TP have strong presence in south America... but that doesn't necessarily preclude that there's no space for AC to provide one-stop service as competition. It's not about absolutes.

No one is saying that there's a daily full wide-body worth of pax on South America-YYZ-Europe itineraries but they do exist, and YYZ still remains an option.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 12:47 AM   #1271
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Hi yyzhyd, I live in Buenos Aires (EZE) and I don't know who would make a flight to Europe from South America via Toronto, seriously.
An example: Air Canada has 5 weekly to EZE from YYZ

There are (x) weekly flights from EZE to this european cities:
-Madrid 31 non-stop
-Rome 11 non-stop
-Frankfurt 7 non-stop
-London 7 (via GRU)
-Paris 7 non-stop
-Barcelona 2 non-stop

Saludos!
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Old March 18th, 2010, 12:50 AM   #1272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
UA
1. London LHR
2. Frankfurt FRA
3. Munich MUC
4. Brussels BRU
5. Geneva GVA
6. Zurich ZRH
7. Amsterdam AMS
8. Paris CDG
9. Rome FCO
10. Moscow SVO

US
1. London LHR
2. Frankfurt FRA
3. Munich MUC
4. Manchester MAN
5. Dublin DUB
6. Amsterdam AMS
7. Paris CDG
8. Madrid MAD
9. Rome FCO

This is not a complete list of European cities served by US Airways.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 01:32 AM   #1273
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gnzlnho, you're right that much better options exist than transitting YYZ to Europe. I was referencing the issue of transit visas South American pax are subjected to when transitting the USA... And for those pax, AC is trying to capture them through YYZ with the lure of no transit visa.

Glasgow man,
I grabbed the list from USairways.com's route map.
Therefore assumed it was complete. Feel free to update.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 01:40 AM   #1274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
gnzlnho, you're right that much better options exist than transitting YYZ to Europe. I was referencing the issue of transit visas South American pax are subjected to when transitting the USA... And for those pax, AC is trying to capture them through YYZ with the lure of no transit visa.

Glasgow man,
I grabbed the list from USairways.com's route map.
Therefore assumed it was complete. Feel free to update.
But people also need Visa for european countries...
For ex: if you have an italian Visa, you can go to the US with no problem...
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Old March 18th, 2010, 05:42 AM   #1275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
gnzlnho, you're right that much better options exist than transitting YYZ to Europe. I was referencing the issue of transit visas South American pax are subjected to when transitting the USA... And for those pax, AC is trying to capture them through YYZ with the lure of no transit visa.

Glasgow man,
I grabbed the list from USairways.com's route map.
Therefore assumed it was complete. Feel free to update.
Ah I see .. so out of that very restricted portion of the market where the South American passenger wants to transit in the US, they may think about AC now. That's quite a very small market AC is going after.

While not discounting the likelihood such a scenario exists, that passenger also needs to fly to a major European hub where AC goes as well, or risk transiting 2x. AC's Europe network isn't that big actually.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 02:14 PM   #1276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Ah I see .. so out of that very restricted portion of the market where the South American passenger wants to transit in the US, they may think about AC now. That's quite a very small market AC is going after.

While not discounting the likelihood such a scenario exists, that passenger also needs to fly to a major European hub where AC goes as well, or risk transiting 2x. AC's Europe network isn't that big actually.
We both know that AC's operations to South America are not based on transit pax. My point has always been that with the visa restrictions in place south of the border AC could capture those pax as well. Whether it be Europe or Asia bound.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 03:07 PM   #1277
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Completely Agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
We both know that AC's operations to South America are not based on transit pax. My point has always been that with the visa restrictions in place south of the border AC could capture those pax as well. Whether it be Europe or Asia bound.
I fully agree with what you are stating. It is all about providing another option. At times, the option may be cheaper, so that makes it just as viable as the other options.

I have relatives in Brazil and they have transited at YYZ to LHR and other EU cities. As a matter of fact, they quite like it and the costs work out to be better for them. It also helps that TAM code shares on the flights.

I am heading down to Lima in April on AC and quite looking forward to it. Funny enough, it was the most reasonable flight out there and I get my Aeroplan.

PS...on a side note, I posted about Virgin America coming to Toronto. There will be flights to SFO and LAX. More competition for AC and AA on the direct flights.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 04:27 PM   #1278
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Virigin America confirms YYZ

Virgin America Launches 2010 Growth Plans; Summer Expansion to Orlando, Toronto

SAN FRANCISCO, March 18 /PRNewswire/ -- Virgin America today announces network expansion plans that position the new airline for strong growth in 2010 and beyond. Today, Virgin America announces it will serve Orlando International Airport (MCO) with daily nonstop flights from both Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) and San Francisco International Airport (SFO) beginning August 19, 2010. Additionally, the airline announces its intent to serve Toronto Pearson International Airport (YYZ) with daily flights from both LAX and SFO as early as June 2010...

link:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Virgin....html?x=0&.v=1

Wonder if this will prompt WN or B6 into starting YYZ or elsewhere in Canada?
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Old March 18th, 2010, 05:05 PM   #1279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
Virgin America Launches 2010 Growth Plans; Summer Expansion to Orlando, Toronto

SAN FRANCISCO, March 18 /PRNewswire/ -- Virgin America today announces network expansion plans that position the new airline for strong growth in 2010 and beyond. Today, Virgin America announces it will serve Orlando International Airport (MCO) with daily nonstop flights from both Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) and San Francisco International Airport (SFO) beginning August 19, 2010. Additionally, the airline announces its intent to serve Toronto Pearson International Airport (YYZ) with daily flights from both LAX and SFO as early as June 2010...

link:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Virgin....html?x=0&.v=1

Wonder if this will prompt WN or B6 into starting YYZ or elsewhere in Canada?
It's confirmed on the GTAA website now.
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Old March 18th, 2010, 05:07 PM   #1280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnzlnho View Post
Air Canada rescheduled the flight to the south cone.

Used to be: YYZ-SCL-EZE
And now: YYZ-EZE-SCL (x5 a week)
That's only for South America's winter season...summer is back to YYZ-SCL-EZE. I know because I'm on it in December.
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