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Old October 26th, 2010, 11:45 PM   #1501
yyzhyd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
What the Canadians are asking for is significantly more than what UAE wants. Canada is asking for 5th freedom out of Dubai, which is a world of a difference than UAE flying people to end-point Canadian cities. Of course they'll refuse.
That's the point isn't it. If one party has nothing you want, there's no reason to trade with them is there?

Other than 5th Freedoms out of DXB (not even AUH) there is little if anything of value that UAE can offer Canada in return for increased frequencies. I really don't see significant investment by EK in Canada other than some random sponsorships such as the Rogers Cup Tennis Tourney.
UAE certainly aren't buying Bombardier Trains/Planes etc. which might have held some influence.

As far as LH goes, they have a full profit sharing agreement with AC on transatlantic routes.
How many flights exist today between Canada and Germany on AC/LH?
Roughly: 77 weekly flights (note that UAE wanted 50 weekly)

YVR-FRA AC Daily
YVR-FRA LH Daily
YYC-FRA AC Daily
YYC-FRA LH Daily
YOW-FRA AC Daily
YUL-FRA AC Daily
YUL-MUC LH Daily
YYZ-FRA AC 2x Daily
YYZ-FRA LH Daily
YYZ-MUC AC Daily

Canada exported $3.88 Billion worth of goods & services in 2007 to Germany.
By contrast Canada exported $787.36 Million worth of goods & services in 2006 to UAE.

And just for fun... let's look at Turkey which recently started 3x weekly service between IST and YYZ... Canadian exports to Turkey reached $1.2 Billion in 2008.
How about India with only 35x weekly flights... $4 Billion in 2008.

So let's call a spade a spade and put this nonsense about how Canada is being so unfair in not giving UAE/EK more frequencies and that flight loads somehow justify this fantastic amount of frequencies being requested between UAE and Canada. They just aren't warranted and there's not much the UAE can do to sweeten a pot with incentives for Canada to change their mind.
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Last edited by yyzhyd; October 26th, 2010 at 11:52 PM. Reason: added India trade figures
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Old October 27th, 2010, 12:10 AM   #1502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post

That's the point isn't it. If one party has nothing you want, there's no reason to trade with them is there?

Other than 5th Freedoms out of DXB (not even AUH) there is little if anything of value that UAE can offer Canada in return for increased frequencies. I really don't see significant investment by EK in Canada other than some random sponsorships such as the Rogers Cup Tennis Tourney.
UAE certainly aren't buying Bombardier Trains/Planes etc. which might have held some influence.

As far as LH goes, they have a full profit sharing agreement with AC on transatlantic routes.
How many flights exist today between Canada and Germany on AC/LH?
Roughly: 77 weekly flights (note that UAE wanted 50 weekly)

YVR-FRA AC Daily
YVR-FRA LH Daily
YYC-FRA AC Daily
YYC-FRA LH Daily
YOW-FRA AC Daily
YUL-FRA AC Daily
YUL-MUC LH Daily
YYZ-FRA AC 2x Daily
YYZ-FRA LH Daily
YYZ-MUC AC Daily

Canada exported $3.88 Billion worth of goods & services in 2007 to Germany.
By contrast Canada exported $787.36 Million worth of goods & services in 2006 to UAE.

And just for fun... let's look at Turkey which recently started 3x weekly service between IST and YYZ... Canadian exports to Turkey reached $1.2 Billion in 2008.
How about India with only 35x weekly flights... $4 Billion in 2008.

So let's call a spade a spade and put this nonsense about how Canada is being so unfair in not giving UAE/EK more frequencies and that flight loads somehow justify this fantastic amount of frequencies being requested between UAE and Canada. They just aren't warranted and there's not much the UAE can do to sweeten a pot with incentives for Canada to change their mind.
Bravo and kudos to you on those points. Very well put.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 09:01 AM   #1503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post

That's the point isn't it. If one party has nothing you want, there's no reason to trade with them is there?

Other than 5th Freedoms out of DXB (not even AUH) there is little if anything of value that UAE can offer Canada in return for increased frequencies. I really don't see significant investment by EK in Canada other than some random sponsorships such as the Rogers Cup Tennis Tourney.
UAE certainly aren't buying Bombardier Trains/Planes etc. which might have held some influence.

As far as LH goes, they have a full profit sharing agreement with AC on transatlantic routes.
How many flights exist today between Canada and Germany on AC/LH?
Roughly: 77 weekly flights (note that UAE wanted 50 weekly)

YVR-FRA AC Daily
YVR-FRA LH Daily
YYC-FRA AC Daily
YYC-FRA LH Daily
YOW-FRA AC Daily
YUL-FRA AC Daily
YUL-MUC LH Daily
YYZ-FRA AC 2x Daily
YYZ-FRA LH Daily
YYZ-MUC AC Daily

Canada exported $3.88 Billion worth of goods & services in 2007 to Germany.
By contrast Canada exported $787.36 Million worth of goods & services in 2006 to UAE.

And just for fun... let's look at Turkey which recently started 3x weekly service between IST and YYZ... Canadian exports to Turkey reached $1.2 Billion in 2008.
How about India with only 35x weekly flights... $4 Billion in 2008.

So let's call a spade a spade and put this nonsense about how Canada is being so unfair in not giving UAE/EK more frequencies and that flight loads somehow justify this fantastic amount of frequencies being requested between UAE and Canada. They just aren't warranted and there's not much the UAE can do to sweeten a pot with incentives for Canada to change their mind.
Emirates can offer a lot more to Canada in terms of jobs for Canadians servicing Emirates planes and passengers, and also the increase choice for Canadians when flying abroad, which is not so easily quantifiable. The impact on the Canadian job market would be direct, and is no different from another foreign carrier flying into Canada such as BA or Lufthansa. What more do you actually expect a foreign carrier to do to 'invest' in the country?

Import/exports are only part of the picture when assessing demand. AC has 0 India direct nonstop flights. So why would a country with $4 billion in trade cannot support a single nonstop flight while Turkey can with only 1/4 of the trade? Obviously there's more in the works to make a route profitable than trade. I doubt you can conclude on viability based on that alone.
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Old October 27th, 2010, 09:08 PM   #1504
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Emirates can offer a lot more to Canada in terms of jobs for Canadians servicing Emirates planes and passengers, and also the increase choice for Canadians when flying abroad, which is not so easily quantifiable. The impact on the Canadian job market would be direct, and is no different from another foreign carrier flying into Canada such as BA or Lufthansa. What more do you actually expect a foreign carrier to do to 'invest' in the country?

Import/exports are only part of the picture when assessing demand. AC has 0 India direct nonstop flights. So why would a country with $4 billion in trade cannot support a single nonstop flight while Turkey can with only 1/4 of the trade? Obviously there's more in the works to make a route profitable than trade. I doubt you can conclude on viability based on that alone.
Except that Air India is starting non-stop flights to YYZ next month...
AC couldn't make India work previously because of cost structure and gas guzzling 767's, and the fact that most Indian nationals prefer to use Air India over pretty much any other airline. There has always been talk of reinstating Delhi and Mumbai with 787's once they arrive. For the most part AC has never tried to block an airline from entering the Canadian market. Case in point - Ehiopian Airlines and Egypt Airlines starting next year, both of which will compete directly with AC/LH, but both being limited to 3 times weekly. Same with Qatar (most likely). I doubt very much that either country will play some political chess game with Canada over landing rights the same way the UAE did.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 04:54 AM   #1505
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Originally Posted by ACT7 View Post
Except that Air India is starting non-stop flights to YYZ next month...
AC couldn't make India work previously because of cost structure and gas guzzling 767's, and the fact that most Indian nationals prefer to use Air India over pretty much any other airline. There has always been talk of reinstating Delhi and Mumbai with 787's once they arrive. For the most part AC has never tried to block an airline from entering the Canadian market. Case in point - Ehiopian Airlines and Egypt Airlines starting next year, both of which will compete directly with AC/LH, but both being limited to 3 times weekly. Same with Qatar (most likely). I doubt very much that either country will play some political chess game with Canada over landing rights the same way the UAE did.
That's because in other countries, their airlines don't have the strong support that Emirates has, and this includes Canada. Ottawa won't likely do as much as what the UAE is doing for its national carriers.

So the fact that AC cannot get equivalent government support and its fleet cannot make the route work despite so much trade should not inhibit others with better circumstances to do so.

Other countries have voiced concerns about Emirates' business model and 'predatory' expansion. But they're here to stay so everyone else just needs to cope and try to compete better with them. The Australians have been complaining about them for years now.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 05:50 AM   #1506
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
That's because in other countries, their airlines don't have the strong support that Emirates has, and this includes Canada. Ottawa won't likely do as much as what the UAE is doing for its national carriers.

So the fact that AC cannot get equivalent government support and its fleet cannot make the route work despite so much trade should not inhibit others with better circumstances to do so.

Other countries have voiced concerns about Emirates' business model and 'predatory' expansion. But they're here to stay so everyone else just needs to cope and try to compete better with them. The Australians have been complaining about them for years now.
Then I think it just needs to be more gradual than "we want 50 flights". And, no matter what, booting Canada off a base is not the right approach and won't help their cause long term.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 07:09 AM   #1507
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Originally Posted by ACT7 View Post
Then I think it just needs to be more gradual than "we want 50 flights". And, no matter what, booting Canada off a base is not the right approach and won't help their cause long term.
I doubt the Canadian government will ever allow Emirates to get all that it wants. They don't seem to be patient with waiting already, as they're sending their A380s to Toronto. If they ultimately won't have a chance, I suppose they might as well go out with a bang! Nothing more to lose since Ottawa is already giving a solid 'no'.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 11:15 AM   #1508
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I was expecting this kind of answer. I love how you say that demand if not there in EE, but you ignore DME/SVO, PRG, WAW. This kinda of propaganda was expected. We have been listening this kinda of BS for last 30-40 years.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohne View Post
OMG.
Have you ever heard of Hub&Spoke? That's what all airlines do, because outside of London or New York, you could never fill a long haul plane solely based on O&D traffic. But it's definitely not LH that there are no eastern European airlines flying to Canada. Most of them don't fly long haul anymore at all - and not because of LH but because of weak demand from their home markets, mismanagement, etc. Eastern Europe isn't populated densely, and economy is still far behind western Europe. Even if LH and FRA didn't exist, there wouldn't be a single more flight from eastern Europe to Canada...
But in contrast to Eastern Europe or the Emirates, there is strong demand for flights from Canada to the economical powerhouse Germany. But of course, these need additional feed to be operated profitably. Hubbing in FRA and MUC only helps AC and LH to sustain these flights. If not, Calgary, Vancouver, Montreal and especially Ottawa would lose their (especially economically) important connections to Germany and business travellers in Toronto would have much less choice of flying times.
Same applies for AF in CDG, BA in LHR, etc (and all over the world i.e. CX at HKG. QF at SYD, JL/NH at NRT, ...). If all those carriers didn't hub, there wouldn't be a single flight from Canada to Europe, except of LHR.
LH is aggressive, but definitely not predatory (in contrast to EK). And LH doesn't funnel all its traffic through FRA. LH has a second hub in MUC. ZRH (through LX), LHR (through BD) and VIE (through OS) are LH hubs, too. More than any other European airline has. SK and LO with their hubs also rely on LH.
So base your accusations on something more than just your impression!
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Old October 28th, 2010, 01:23 PM   #1509
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Originally Posted by ACT7 View Post
Then I think it just needs to be more gradual than "we want 50 flights". And, no matter what, booting Canada off a base is not the right approach and won't help their cause long term.
The FREE lease ended in JUNE, they were allowed to stay till SEPTEMBER. Where did you get the "booting off" idea?
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Old October 28th, 2010, 04:30 PM   #1510
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The FREE lease ended in JUNE, they were allowed to stay till SEPTEMBER. Where did you get the "booting off" idea?
The "booting off" is a tactic. Not allowing the minister of defence to land, while he's in mid flight, isn't exactly the normal step taken to not renew a lease - free or otherwise. It sends a message of strong-arming, bullying, etc. Sugarcoat it anyway you like, but the UAE's tactic constitutes nothing other than a kick in the ass to Canada. This whole thing has reached idiotic proportions, that an airline, tied to it's government the way EK is, can essentially demand from a country the right to acquire more landing slots, and if that country doesn't allow it, it becomes a political mess. Find me one other airline in recent history that has pulled this stunt.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 05:08 PM   #1511
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Emirates can offer a lot more to Canada in terms of jobs for Canadians servicing Emirates planes and passengers, and also the increase choice for Canadians when flying abroad, which is not so easily quantifiable. The impact on the Canadian job market would be direct, and is no different from another foreign carrier flying into Canada such as BA or Lufthansa. What more do you actually expect a foreign carrier to do to 'invest' in the country?

Import/exports are only part of the picture when assessing demand. AC has 0 India direct nonstop flights. So why would a country with $4 billion in trade cannot support a single nonstop flight while Turkey can with only 1/4 of the trade? Obviously there's more in the works to make a route profitable than trade. I doubt you can conclude on viability based on that alone.
Can Emirates offer "more" jobs can than any other airline? The Rogers Cup reference was an anecdotal reference.
So an increase in choice of 1 maybe 2 additional airlines (EK and EY respectively)? No thank you, if the cost of this "increased choice" is a reduction and/or elimination of routes/frequencies by existing carriers.

Yes of course Imports/Exports are only a part of the picture but my point was that the amount of trade is an incentive.
What does the UAE produce that we want?
What do we produce that the UAE wants? How much of it do they buy?
How big is their market now and what is it's potential?
These are all factors in the decision making process whether we like it or not.

As I have said many times before... EK needs Canada a lot more than Canada needs EK. This will be even more evident once the B787s come online for AC and AI.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 05:26 PM   #1512
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The "booting off" is a tactic. Not allowing the minister of defence to land, while he's in mid flight, isn't exactly the normal step taken to not renew a lease - free or otherwise. It sends a message of strong-arming, bullying, etc. Sugarcoat it anyway you like, but the UAE's tactic constitutes nothing other than a kick in the ass to Canada. This whole thing has reached idiotic proportions, that an airline, tied to it's government the way EK is, can essentially demand from a country the right to acquire more landing slots, and if that country doesn't allow it, it becomes a political mess. Find me one other airline in recent history that has pulled this stunt.
ACT7... A couple of technical clarifications on the first few points.
McKay was advised just prior to boarding the C-17 that his flight had been denied UAE overflight. In fact other CAF aircraft landed and departed Camp Mirage that day.
Regardless, the UAE's actions show their true colours as a petty, spoiled child that's used to just throwing a tantrum if they don't get what they want.
If there was a legitimate case re: their air service agreement with Canada there are existing legal avenues they could have utilized.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 06:55 PM   #1513
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Originally Posted by yyzhyd View Post
Can Emirates offer "more" jobs can than any other airline? The Rogers Cup reference was an anecdotal reference.
So an increase in choice of 1 maybe 2 additional airlines (EK and EY respectively)? No thank you, if the cost of this "increased choice" is a reduction and/or elimination of routes/frequencies by existing carriers.

Yes of course Imports/Exports are only a part of the picture but my point was that the amount of trade is an incentive.
What does the UAE produce that we want?
What do we produce that the UAE wants? How much of it do they buy?
How big is their market now and what is it's potential?
These are all factors in the decision making process whether we like it or not.

As I have said many times before... EK needs Canada a lot more than Canada needs EK. This will be even more evident once the B787s come online for AC and AI.
Well, AC doesn't do much sponsorship or community service here in Hong Kong, but that is not a reason to deny them increased frequencies here. Using that logic, China should boot them out of Beijing and Shanghai by now.

I don't think consumers mind if an airline can offer cheaper fares and more destination range even if that means flying a foreign carrier. The price to pay is for those who can't compete to adapt or get out. Capitalism at best.

I actually doubt even when AC gets the right long-haul aircraft, it can successfully compete with EK. EK simply has significant economies of scale and a far stronger network in the Middle East / India with more frequencies. AC will likely need to compete based on price .. hence, lose money.

I think the whole AC operating model is wrong to begin with. Here in Hong Kong, we have a tiny population, yet we can support a strong local carrier and also open up key routes to competition. EK charges very little for a long flight to London, and doesn't even levy much fuel surcharge/tax at all. Yet the market can still exist with other one-stop services such as QR, and nonstop with NZ, QF, BA, VS, etc.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 08:11 PM   #1514
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ACT7... A couple of technical clarifications on the first few points.
McKay was advised just prior to boarding the C-17 that his flight had been denied UAE overflight. In fact other CAF aircraft landed and departed Camp Mirage that day.
Regardless, the UAE's actions show their true colours as a petty, spoiled child that's used to just throwing a tantrum if they don't get what they want.
If there was a legitimate case re: their air service agreement with Canada there are existing legal avenues they could have utilized.
Thanks for the clarification, yyzhyd. I misunderstood because my impression was that because of the landing refusal there was an unexpected 4 hour (or 6 hour - I can't remember) diversion to Rome. Nonetheless, I believe the UAE (and therefore EK and EY) have shot themselves in the foot with this move and it may even inspire a few more countries who feel that they are dumping seats to grow a backbone and limit EK and EY's landing rights. From what I understand, Germany, France and the UK have been pushing this agenda for years now.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 08:16 PM   #1515
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Well, AC doesn't do much sponsorship or community service here in Hong Kong, but that is not a reason to deny them increased frequencies here. Using that logic, China should boot them out of Beijing and Shanghai by now.

I don't think consumers mind if an airline can offer cheaper fares and more destination range even if that means flying a foreign carrier. The price to pay is for those who can't compete to adapt or get out. Capitalism at best.

I actually doubt even when AC gets the right long-haul aircraft, it can successfully compete with EK. EK simply has significant economies of scale and a far stronger network in the Middle East / India with more frequencies. AC will likely need to compete based on price .. hence, lose money.

I think the whole AC operating model is wrong to begin with. Here in Hong Kong, we have a tiny population, yet we can support a strong local carrier and also open up key routes to competition. EK charges very little for a long flight to London, and doesn't even levy much fuel surcharge/tax at all. Yet the market can still exist with other one-stop services such as QR, and nonstop with NZ, QF, BA, VS, etc.
Your local carrier built itself without having to fly a single domestic route, surprise surprise just like EK and SQ... hmmm interesting isn't it.
If you look at Canada being the second largest landmass, with a sparsely dispersed population... the role of our national carrier is fundamentally different than Hong Kong, Dubai or Singapore's. You may say that has no bearing on EK et al but it does to Canada so like it or not AC's interests will be protected because AC has clearly stated that anything that unfairly jeopardizes their international routes' will result in them having to cut unprofitable domestic routes. That's the reality.

AC and AI will be able via their star alliance partnership be able to offer Canadians and Indians far greater access to eachother's countries than EK.
Especially now with AI's DEL hub online. I'll go out on a limb and say AI will focus on DEL-YYZ and AC will focus on YYZ-BOM, YVR-DEL as this develops.

Additionally Canada and India recently (Sept 2010) announced plans to revisit the current bilateral (signed 2005) and make it even more open.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 08:23 PM   #1516
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Your local carrier built itself without having to fly a single domestic route, surprise surprise just like EK and SQ... hmmm interesting isn't it.
If you look at Canada being the second largest landmass, with a sparsely dispersed population... the role of our national carrier is fundamentally different than Hong Kong, Dubai or Singapore's. You may say that has no bearing on EK et al but it does to Canada so like it or not AC's interests will be protected because AC has clearly stated that anything that unfairly jeopardizes their international routes' will result in them having to cut unprofitable domestic routes. That's the reality.

AC and AI will be able via their star alliance partnership be able to offer Canadians and Indians far greater access to eachother's countries than EK.
Especially now with AI's DEL hub online. I'll go out on a limb and say AI will focus on DEL-YYZ and AC will focus on YYZ-BOM, YVR-DEL as this develops.

Additionally Canada and India recently (Sept 2010) announced plans to revisit the current bilateral (signed 2005) and make it even more open.
This is why I think AC's operating model is wrong to begin with. They're forced to compete in market but have a government mandate looming overhead. But then is it other carriers' faults they can wrestle more power with their states or even compete on market forces?

I also think operating an international carrier from city-states is even harder, since the population is small so they really rely on transfer traffic or a very mobile demographic. It's hard to open routes when there is no domestic network to funnel traffic through a main airport. The catchment area narrows considerably. But here in HK we did it while playing by market forces.

Meanwhile, Ottawa may complain of all sorts of state support for EK but at the same time they loom over AC like a hawk, demanding them to fly unprofitable routes and now compete on perhaps profitable ones on the international arena.

An AC and AI partnership, along with LH, will likely spur antitrust implications. A monopoly will do no good to all. That's why Ottawa is so afraid of EK coming in because they're capable of ofering a low-cost solution which AC cannot compete since it doesn't fit the free market economic model to begin with. So when someone else can do it better, they get scared. Hence, no further flights.

Opening more bilateral frequencies is not the same as actually starting flights. AC is clearly not using what it can fly to the maximum now. I think it'll be hard already with an A380 coming from Dubai.

The stalemate will not likely be resolved any time soon, but to claim EK is unfairly competing because of government support is a bit misleading considering AC is still heavily-influenced by Ottawa as well.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 09:22 PM   #1517
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This is why I think AC's operating model is wrong to begin with. They're forced to compete in market but have a government mandate looming overhead. But then is it other carriers' faults they can wrestle more power with their states or even compete on market forces?

I also think operating an international carrier from city-states is even harder, since the population is small so they really rely on transfer traffic or a very mobile demographic. It's hard to open routes when there is no domestic network to funnel traffic through a main airport. The catchment area narrows considerably. But here in HK we did it while playing by market forces.

Meanwhile, Ottawa may complain of all sorts of state support for EK but at the same time they loom over AC like a hawk, demanding them to fly unprofitable routes and now compete on perhaps profitable ones on the international arena.

An AC and AI partnership, along with LH, will likely spur antitrust implications. A monopoly will do no good to all. That's why Ottawa is so afraid of EK coming in because they're capable of ofering a low-cost solution which AC cannot compete since it doesn't fit the free market economic model to begin with. So when someone else can do it better, they get scared. Hence, no further flights.

Opening more bilateral frequencies is not the same as actually starting flights. AC is clearly not using what it can fly to the maximum now. I think it'll be hard already with an A380 coming from Dubai.

The stalemate will not likely be resolved any time soon, but to claim EK is unfairly competing because of government support is a bit misleading considering AC is still heavily-influenced by Ottawa as well.
Valid points.
However, my argument is not that "EK is unfairly competing because of government support" rather that they are unfairly competing by capacity dumping in other markets which Canada is trying to prempt by tightly controlling their air rights.
If you were to ask the Aussies what they would do if they had a "do-over" they likely wouldn't have given EK such liberal access so quickly.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 09:33 PM   #1518
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This is why I think AC's operating model is wrong to begin with. They're forced to compete in market but have a government mandate looming overhead. But then is it other carriers' faults they can wrestle more power with their states or even compete on market forces?

I also think operating an international carrier from city-states is even harder, since the population is small so they really rely on transfer traffic or a very mobile demographic. It's hard to open routes when there is no domestic network to funnel traffic through a main airport. The catchment area narrows considerably. But here in HK we did it while playing by market forces.

Meanwhile, Ottawa may complain of all sorts of state support for EK but at the same time they loom over AC like a hawk, demanding them to fly unprofitable routes and now compete on perhaps profitable ones on the international arena.

An AC and AI partnership, along with LH, will likely spur antitrust implications. A monopoly will do no good to all. That's why Ottawa is so afraid of EK coming in because they're capable of ofering a low-cost solution which AC cannot compete since it doesn't fit the free market economic model to begin with. So when someone else can do it better, they get scared. Hence, no further flights.

Opening more bilateral frequencies is not the same as actually starting flights. AC is clearly not using what it can fly to the maximum now. I think it'll be hard already with an A380 coming from Dubai.

The stalemate will not likely be resolved any time soon, but to claim EK is unfairly competing because of government support is a bit misleading considering AC is still heavily-influenced by Ottawa as well.
The key being that AC is supporting local activities. If AC was unshackled then things would be a different ball game.

Funny you talk about being unfair, why is it that Lufthansa has been delayed in starting their service to Beijing and EK has no issue at all. You do not think that there is some unfair activities going on there? Lufthansa has to puch back the start up and EK is starting soon.

And the claim about competing unfairly is just that. For trade to be done freely, that means that both parties play on the same field with no differences. Hence the word Free. If you want competition, then competitors compete against each other and adjust accordingly to try to compete against each other. It is a bit impossible (speaking of only international routes) that when one is subsidized (do not take my word for it) more than another, that competition is fair and equitable.

We know they are receiving some subsidies in the form or fuel, airport charges, taxation and so on. It can be called whatever you want but it is a subsidy. Funny enough as a crown corporation, they had to produce an annual report with the details of their activities. If anyone can find me the details similar for EK, it would be greatly appreciated.

As for the comparisson of HK, well, do you really think that if CX was bleeding money and on the brink of shut down where over 20,000 people in HK would be out of work in an instant that the government would not do a thing by providing some sort of loan or assistance? Well, if it were truly a free market, then there would not be an issue for the air services to be opened wide and let the market prevail. Why has that not happened? Interesting question that should be considered by all around the globe. Every airline should be allowed to come and go as they please with whatever frequencies they desire and there should be no limitations. The day I see any country open their market like that, then we can talk about a truly free market where the govenrment only intervenes when there truly is an issue of safety or market manipulation.

Oh and just so you are aware, the situation also happens where local govenrments buy unoccupied seats on airlines so as to maintain a route or routes.
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Old October 28th, 2010, 09:41 PM   #1519
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... We know they are receiving some subsidies in the form or fuel, airport charges, taxation and so on. It can be called whatever you want but it is a subsidy...
Yet with many many advantages as you've listed and a perfect geographical location of a transit hub for worldwide connections EK has yet to turn an operational profit. Things that make you go hmmm....
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Last edited by yyzhyd; October 28th, 2010 at 09:42 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old October 28th, 2010, 09:49 PM   #1520
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Funny you talk about being unfair, why is it that Lufthansa has been delayed in starting their service to Beijing and EK has no issue at all. You do not think that there is some unfair activities going on there? Lufthansa has to push back the start up and EK is starting soon.
Sorry but that should be A380 service to be more specific.
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