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Old November 12th, 2010, 08:50 PM   #1581
Toronto_41
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I'm not sure how many more times you or I can say this before it registers...
Thanks for that. Much appreciated. I can say it until I turn blue in the face but that will take a long time. . After all, I have a darker skin tone and it will take a long while!
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Old November 12th, 2010, 08:51 PM   #1582
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Article: Emirates Airline: "Busting Myths" about Air Canada

http://www.cbc.ca/politics/insidepol...ir-canada.html

Still touting wanting access to YVR and YYC.
I will say this...comparing the open skies agreement with Switzerland is interesting but there is obviously something more behind the scenes that isn't being made public because allowing Turkish, Egyptair, Ethiopian and Qatar to gain access doesn't exactly reek of protectionism.
If memory serves me correct, Does Ethopian not have as much access as they want? Thought it was an open skies deal? Let me know cause I cannot remember.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 09:11 PM   #1583
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Originally Posted by Toronto_41 View Post
If memory serves me correct, Does Ethopian not have as much access as they want? Thought it was an open skies deal? Let me know cause I cannot remember.
Here'e the link from Transport Canada...http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/mediaroom/re...h027e-5849.htm

One from Routes: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...77-200lrs.html

I think you're right because it doesn't specify 3 times weekly. I just remember Ethiopian making the announcement themselves about 3 flights per week.

This is the original link from Ethiopian in January (with some obvious errors in what city is the capital of Canada)

http://www.ena.gov.et/EnglishNews/20...n10/104852.htm
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Old November 12th, 2010, 09:15 PM   #1584
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Originally Posted by ACT7 View Post
Here'e the link from Transport Canada...http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/mediaroom/re...h027e-5849.htm

One from Routes: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...77-200lrs.html

I think you're right because it doesn't specify 3 times weekly. I just remember Ethiopian making the announcement themselves about 3 flights per week.

This is the original link from Ethiopian in January (with some obvious errors in what city is the capital of Canada)

http://www.ena.gov.et/EnglishNews/20...n10/104852.htm
Thanks.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 05:01 AM   #1585
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Originally Posted by Toronto_41 View Post
The point is that if the appropriate channels were followed, and they could prove it like THY or any other airline that has recently gained access to Canada, that they would be more than happy to open up more slots. If you cry wolf too many times, the last time that you do, no one will listen.

Case in point, now many other countries and airlines are looking more closely at what EK has been doing. So, who hurts in the end? Not AC or Canada. We still have airlines wanting to fly in here and start service.
How do you actually conclude EK will be given more if they followed certain channels? Based on an educated guess? So you are telling me all this is not because of protectionism, but rather procedural? So why did Canada offer so little at the beginning before the diplomatic spat began?


I'm doubtful. EK has been flying to YYZ for a while now, and the fact that no more YYZ was offered means Ottawa is not likely going to let it happen. Canadian skies are quite protected.

The fact is foreign carriers don't have the expansion power or the government support to grow as quickly as EK. They all know they can't effectively compete with EK, hence are scared, and would make it loud and clear as such.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 05:42 AM   #1586
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Don't kid yourself, THY is flying full planes from YYZ because of transfer traffic and MS's objective to fly into YYZ is the same...there's a reason why MS into YUL didn't work very well - it was purly based on point to point leisure travel during peak periods. Same thing with Ehiopian when they start, that's all about about through traffic. I'll concede that YYZ-PEK is point to point traffic but even with that, and given that Canada and China are MUCH bigger trading partners than Canada and the UAE, Hainan could cry foul over only having 3 flights a week but they don't. They're following the proper process...go figure.
What you are saying doesn't match up with the numbers in reality. THY is actually a fairly weak competitor within the Star Alliance in that region. The traffic data already makes that quite clear. In 2009, Turkish carried 25 million passengers compared to Lufthansa's 77 million. Turkish doesn't even fly to Australia and New Zealand, and only to 2 Indian cities. Emirates flies to 10 Indian cities and 6 cities in Australia and New Zealand. AC will never get the leverage EK can give even by partnering with THY more closely. Even Lufthansa doesn't have as much coverage in these 3 key markets.

For Hainan, it's a very simple reason why 3 flights a week would suffice. They only have 7 A330 and 3 A340 aircraft, and they fly to a lot of long-haul international destinations (Seattle, Moscow, St. Petersburg, Berlin, Brussels, Budapest, Dubai, Cairo, Khartoum, Luanda, Sydney). So they won't have enough aircraft to go around for a daily Toronto service (easily ties up 3-4 planes for a daily service). EK doesn't have that problem with a huge order of planes coming to fruition.

I don't think you have considered enough who these airlines are, what they do, and how they fit into the international market before putting your thoughts on print.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 06:55 AM   #1587
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
What you are saying doesn't match up with the numbers in reality. THY is actually a fairly weak competitor within the Star Alliance in that region. The traffic data already makes that quite clear. In 2009, Turkish carried 25 million passengers compared to Lufthansa's 77 million. Turkish doesn't even fly to Australia and New Zealand, and only to 2 Indian cities. Emirates flies to 10 Indian cities and 6 cities in Australia and New Zealand. AC will never get the leverage EK can give even by partnering with THY more closely. Even Lufthansa doesn't have as much coverage in these 3 key markets.

For Hainan, it's a very simple reason why 3 flights a week would suffice. They only have 7 A330 and 3 A340 aircraft, and they fly to a lot of long-haul international destinations (Seattle, Moscow, St. Petersburg, Berlin, Brussels, Budapest, Dubai, Cairo, Khartoum, Luanda, Sydney). So they won't have enough aircraft to go around for a daily Toronto service (easily ties up 3-4 planes for a daily service). EK doesn't have that problem with a huge order of planes coming to fruition.

I don't think you have considered enough who these airlines are, what they do, and how they fit into the international market before putting your thoughts on print.
How many passengers THY carried in total isn't the point. Their service to YYZ is substantially through traffic, not point to point. Turkey didn't even land in the top 10 destinations as a travel market for Canadians, and vice versa for Turkish travellers to Canada so O&D traffic wasn't their target market at all and still isn't.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 08:57 AM   #1588
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How many passengers THY carried in total isn't the point. Their service to YYZ is substantially through traffic, not point to point. Turkey didn't even land in the top 10 destinations as a travel market for Canadians, and vice versa for Turkish travellers to Canada so O&D traffic wasn't their target market at all and still isn't.
Well, the point I'm trying to make is even if THY flies all transit passengers on their planes, they will never be able to effectively compete against EK on the key client segment that flies to India because THY's network there is very poor compared with EK. So in reality, THY cannot substitute EK and be the reason for Ottawa to deny EK additional frequencies. At this point I think the transfer options for India are still limited.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 10:12 AM   #1589
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Fully amazing. Qantas does not have the planes to compete, neither does AC. Exactly whom can compete with EK? As you stated, neither does THY. So whom on this planet can compete with them and what great knowledge do you possess to come to this conclusion? Best part of all, how have you determined that what Canada has offered is not sufficient? Were you sitting at the bargaining table and can disclose this information? Feel free to share. It seems you like to questions but why dont you shed some light on things since it seems that everyone else is wrong and does not seem to know what they are talking about.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 06:04 PM   #1590
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Originally Posted by Toronto_41 View Post
Fully amazing. Qantas does not have the planes to compete, neither does AC. Exactly whom can compete with EK? As you stated, neither does THY. So whom on this planet can compete with them and what great knowledge do you possess to come to this conclusion? Best part of all, how have you determined that what Canada has offered is not sufficient? Were you sitting at the bargaining table and can disclose this information? Feel free to share. It seems you like to questions but why dont you shed some light on things since it seems that everyone else is wrong and does not seem to know what they are talking about.
Qatar and Etihad are competing against Emirates, and are likely capable of doing so. You can check out their networks on their webpages to see why.

You yourself noted what Canada offered, and it was reported on the CBC :

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My friend, I am not sure what the issue is but where is it that you saw in any public release that Ottawa was complaining about EK getting support.

The crux of the matter is that EK wanted and publically complained about not being able to expand in Canada. Now being someone from Toronto, I can tell you that Toronto is NOT Canada. It is a city in a part of Canada.

So when the CBC confirmed that they were offered 7 slots to YYC/YVR but none to Toronto, why was it rejected? Please answer me that? Even still, why were they when offered more slots to Canada but they had to downgrade the A380 to a 777 to Toronto, was the offer rejected?

And in responce to your last point, AC does the same thing and there is an issue. Why is that? If you think they are being hampered by Canada, wait till the proverbial sh*t hits the fan and other countries jump on the bandwagon. This is but the begining. Thanks to the UAE's actions, it is now front and Centre.

One last point, it is this country's right just as it is any countries right to deny any carrier access to their market. Just as it is your right to not want to fly AC but take EK.
Here is the CBC article, by the way :

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...anada-uae.html
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Old November 13th, 2010, 06:11 PM   #1591
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Originally Posted by ACT7 View Post
How many passengers THY carried in total isn't the point. Their service to YYZ is substantially through traffic, not point to point. Turkey didn't even land in the top 10 destinations as a travel market for Canadians, and vice versa for Turkish travellers to Canada so O&D traffic wasn't their target market at all and still isn't.
Did TK get OA's ex passengers?
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Old November 13th, 2010, 06:49 PM   #1592
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Qatar and Etihad are competing against Emirates, and are likely capable of doing so. You can check out their networks on their webpages to see why.

You yourself noted what Canada offered, and it was reported on the CBC :



Here is the CBC article, by the way :

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...anada-uae.html
Yes i did but you were the one who said it was not enough. So on what basis have you got to make a judgement like that? And exactly what is enough? The 50 slots that they want? Please enlighten me.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 08:46 PM   #1593
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Yes i did but you were the one who said it was not enough. So on what basis have you got to make a judgement like that? And exactly what is enough? The 50 slots that they want? Please enlighten me.
Look at what the Australians and New Zealanders have approved. They are the closest and best approximate to compare. It should be closer to what they have given than what Canada has given.

I also would like to know what you think is a sufficient frequency for UAE carriers (Etihad + Emirates).
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Old November 13th, 2010, 11:18 PM   #1594
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Look at what the Australians and New Zealanders have approved. They are the closest and best approximate to compare. It should be closer to what they have given than what Canada has given.

I also would like to know what you think is a sufficient frequency for UAE carriers (Etihad + Emirates).
I say earn it like all the others. Daily is fine with me but the caveat is that you start daily into YYZ, then you start 3 weekly into YYC/YVR. You want it, then you use it, all of it or none. Again, no one has said what was on the table from the UAE. What did they present to Canada or maybe Canada should just give out 50 slots.

The Cda/Aus comparisson does not add up. Australia does not border any other country. 90% of the Canadian polulation lives withing a 2 hour drive to the US and has access to the largest avaition market in the world. What choice do you have in Australia? Well, unless you drive underwater, then you have a captive audience.

If I don't like the price I have to pay, i can drive to Buffalo. Montreal can go to Burlington, Vancouver to Bellingham. Hence the reason airlines are expanding in those markets because they can focus on a specific segment. So tell me how that is similar to Australia? You mean that we are similar because of the British background? Sure, that works.

Funny enough, i can see how you would be upset about it because you cannot fly out of Toronto to Dubai and connect onto where ever. I guess the option to fly out of Toronto or maybe Buffalo does not present enough choice or competition.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 01:56 AM   #1595
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If I don't like the price I have to pay, i can drive to Buffalo. Montreal can go to Burlington, Vancouver to Bellingham. Hence the reason airlines are expanding in those markets because they can focus on a specific segment. So tell me how that is similar to Australia? You mean that we are similar because of the British background? Sure, that works.

Funny enough, i can see how you would be upset about it because you cannot fly out of Toronto to Dubai and connect onto where ever. I guess the option to fly out of Toronto or maybe Buffalo does not present enough choice or competition.
Driving/flying out of Buffalo or Bellingham is only useful if you're going to Disneyland or Las Vegas. If you're going to India or Africa, you are almost forced to fly AC to Frankfurt and connect to Lufthansa. So now, effectively the choice (from Toronto) is between Air Canada, Air Canada, Lufthansa (effectively a third AC flight), and a thrice-weekly flight to Dubai. And a smattering of others.

People do want to travel to more exotic parts of the world for business or pleasure reasons, you know.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 05:29 AM   #1596
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I say earn it like all the others. Daily is fine with me but the caveat is that you start daily into YYZ, then you start 3 weekly into YYC/YVR. You want it, then you use it, all of it or none. Again, no one has said what was on the table from the UAE. What did they present to Canada or maybe Canada should just give out 50 slots.

The Cda/Aus comparisson does not add up. Australia does not border any other country. 90% of the Canadian polulation lives withing a 2 hour drive to the US and has access to the largest avaition market in the world. What choice do you have in Australia? Well, unless you drive underwater, then you have a captive audience.

If I don't like the price I have to pay, i can drive to Buffalo. Montreal can go to Burlington, Vancouver to Bellingham. Hence the reason airlines are expanding in those markets because they can focus on a specific segment. So tell me how that is similar to Australia? You mean that we are similar because of the British background? Sure, that works.

Funny enough, i can see how you would be upset about it because you cannot fly out of Toronto to Dubai and connect onto where ever. I guess the option to fly out of Toronto or maybe Buffalo does not present enough choice or competition.
Then Canada should expect reciprocal treatment. In order to fly to the key Chinese and Indian cities, they need to fly to the secondary cities, and perhaps lose a lot of money in the process. See how AC will react to that.

Australia actually has competition for the European routes .. plenty of it in fact. Qantas flies to a few cities in Europe, while Singapore Airlines also is a formidable competitor. These are all 1-stop services regardless of the airline so the difference is not big from a journey time perspective. Yet the Australians were willing to open up to more foreign carriers for even more competition. This is something Canada isn't willing to do. Seems you don't know much about their international aviation market besides your common British heritage.

Note Canadians also need to pay more to access US airports due to their security charges, etc. And it costs money to drive to Buffalo. Buffalo isn't a major international gateway anyway, so that makes 2 stops at least to get to India, whereas Emirates can do it in 1. You can readily connect to the rest of the lower 48 from Buffalo, but don't count on it for an international flight.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 07:41 AM   #1597
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It's actually remarkable how far off the rails you've taken this, hkskyline. No one ever said that THY could compete with EK or that at some level AC interests weren't being taken into consideration when negotiations with the UAE were taking place. Your point that THY's business model is point-to-point traffic between YYZ and IST is simply wrong. Like MOST airlines with a hub and spoke system, they are capitalizing on through traffic between IST and and their own network. So just because their network isn't as large as EK, it means that EK can demand whatever the hell it wants from Canada? Remember that Canada had initially granted the UAE 6 slots and EK selfishly declined. Is it up to the UAE to determine what is fair for Canada? No. And maybe go back and read my earlier post - Australia has denied Singapore Airlines 5th freedom rights to the U.S. Why? Maybe because the Australian government doesn't feel like bankrupting Qantas. Maybe because the most profitable route Qantas operates is SYD-LAX and they were worried that Singapore airlines would pounce on that because they're an airline that is constantly rated #1 in the world. But the reason that the rest of the world doesn't hear about it is because Singapore doesn't behave like a spoiled child and use bargaining chips in bad faith to get its way. And to reiterate what Toronto 41 has asked you - show us all what the UAE has offered AC in return. No one has ever said that EK shouldn't at some point be granted enhanced access to Canada but until that day comes, the UAE needs to play by the same rules as everyone else and not be petty. In the meantime, they'll have to now compete with Qatar and Egyptair.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 09:51 AM   #1598
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Driving/flying out of Buffalo or Bellingham is only useful if you're going to Disneyland or Las Vegas. If you're going to India or Africa, you are almost forced to fly AC to Frankfurt and connect to Lufthansa. So now, effectively the choice (from Toronto) is between Air Canada, Air Canada, Lufthansa (effectively a third AC flight), and a thrice-weekly flight to Dubai. And a smattering of others.

People do want to travel to more exotic parts of the world for business or pleasure reasons, you know.
Thanks for letting me know about that. By the way, you might want to check and see where you can connect too out of Buffalo especially out of any NYC airport.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 10:07 AM   #1599
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Then Canada should expect reciprocal treatment. In order to fly to the key Chinese and Indian cities, they need to fly to the secondary cities, and perhaps lose a lot of money in the process.

Note Canadians also need to pay more to access US airports due to their security charges, etc. And it costs money to drive to Buffalo. Buffalo isn't a major international gateway anyway, so that makes 2 stops at least to get to India, whereas Emirates can do it in 1. You can readily connect to the rest of the lower 48 from Buffalo, but don't count on it for an international flight.
Funny thing is I point out cempetiton to you and then it comes back to more than one stop. Must have missed something but cempetition means more than one option. Another airport and different prices and it is an issue. Hmmm.

The issue is and i will slow it down for you is as i have said again and again and again is not that they should not get it but not because you demand it. Go look at thr chart and tell me how it is possible that EK has 28 flights to NZ and 50-60 to Germany? Look at the population and tell me how that works out?

So you know, i know about many things but i ask you to point out things and it seems you dont or cannot answer. The similarties are there but there are vast differences. Anyone who can say that the two markets are the same needs to go back and look again.

Thus far, the only country that has an issue with their slots has been and continues to be the UAE. Little odd dont you think?
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Old November 14th, 2010, 10:31 AM   #1600
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India flights - Air India, direct to India
- Jet Airways - 1 stop to India
Africa - Delta via Atlanta one stop. One technical stop.
- Jet Airways to Brussels with connrctions onwards to Africa on Brussels Airways.
- AF via CDG one stop to Africa
- KL via AMS one stop to Africa.

Those are just some of the flights other than AC you can choose. Definitely looks like limited possibilities?

Even still, connect out of Buffalo via NYC, IAD, ATL. Definitely no choices other than AC or Lufthansa.
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