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Old November 15th, 2010, 07:20 PM   #1621
Rohne
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When it comes to EK vs AC, LH, AF, etc, there will never be a level playing field. EK doesn't have the same issues with unions, taxes, fuel prices (it makes a huge difference from where your fleet operates), or lack of government support ("environment" taxes, being forced to serve the regions, etc), etc, etc. Just to name a few. It's also a fact that the UAE indeed buys some empty seats on EK's planes. So EK will always have an artificial advantage that makes competition with them unfair.
Since the governments in Europe and Canada always find new hurdles for their home carriers, they at least shouldn't hurt them further by letting other carriers flooding the market with cheap seats and sign their death sentence! Here we come to the bilaterals...
Granting the middle east carriers the same frequencies as to Germany? Are you joking? Canada and the EU have open skies, any carrier from both sides can have fly as many flights between both as they want. There's fair competition, since both have to offer a geographically large region with several attractive cities AND huge O&D demand between both. The UAE only have to offer a rather small country with 2 potential destinations (AUH and DXB), and only little O&D demand.
Bilaterals aren't one way streets! If the UAE want more they should have to offer something for the other side. I can't see anything the UAE could offer Canada in return. Since the lack of O&D demand, Canada's carriers don't need additional UAE landing rights, they also don't need 5th freedom rights, since they can funnel ongoing traffic through other, better situated, hubs than Dubai. So why should Canada offer more landing rights? Just for EK so that can continue their predatory strategy? ...
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Old November 15th, 2010, 10:48 PM   #1622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACT7 View Post
...and now back to what this thread is supposed to be about...YYZ!


Article: http://www.balkans.com/open-news.php?uniquenumber=79789

I know it looks like Serbian news but read further...

Serbia: Belgrade airport - new gates will be added to Terminal 2 in 2011

EX-YU Aviation News - 15.11.2010

The director of Belgrade Nikola Tesla Airport, Velimir Radosavljević, has announced that new gates will be added to Terminal 2 in 2011 which will allow the current terminal to be freed up for intercontinental flights. Speaking at a conference addressing the open sky policy in Serbia, Radosavljević says that the airport will expand the Terminal 2 parking platform by two football fields, allowing the C gates of the terminal to be used by larger aircraft, as was the case more than 20 years ago when intercontinental flights were operated on a daily basis. Radosavljević hinted that flights between Belgrade and Toronto could begin next year.
Closer to home, Radosavljević said that meetings are being held with the management of Split Airport in the hope that flights between the two cities could resume after 2 decades next year. Serbia’s main airport is reporting strong growth in 2010. In September, passenger numbers increased by 19.6% when compared to the same period last year. In the first 2 weeks of November, figures are up by 23%.

EX-YU Aviation News
They have been letting news like this out of Belgrade for the past 6 years. I just wonder who they're looking at starting this service: JAT? They can't get their shit together since Yugoslavia collapsed. Air Canada? They'll never fly to Belgrade.. So who?
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Old November 15th, 2010, 11:47 PM   #1623
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They have been letting news like this out of Belgrade for the past 6 years. I just wonder who they're looking at starting this service: JAT? They can't get their shit together since Yugoslavia collapsed. Air Canada? They'll never fly to Belgrade.. So who?
Good point. I'm not sure who'll do it. Skyservice did seasonal service up until their collapse so maybe it's an overblown way of saying that Thomas Cook/Jazz will be picking up the route again.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 11:57 PM   #1624
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Good point. I'm not sure who'll do it. Skyservice did seasonal service up until their collapse so maybe it's an overblown way of saying that Thomas Cook/Jazz will be picking up the route again.
I see Air Transat giving the route a try.

There are many Serbs in Canada (mostly Toronto) and Belgrade is very well connected to the Balkans via a multitude of corridors. If the pricing is right, then definitely will the frugal Serbs (and neighbours) give the route a try.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 12:37 AM   #1625
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I see Air Transat giving the route a try.

There are many Serbs in Canada (mostly Toronto) and Belgrade is very well connected to the Balkans via a multitude of corridors. If the pricing is right, then definitely will the frugal Serbs (and neighbours) give the route a try.
Yeah, but what about AC type? Can A310 do YYZ-BEG? Does it have legs for 3900nm? I doubt AirTransat will send their A330 on this new and thin route... Maybe A330-200 if we get super lucky.... The only positive side is that TS is looking into getting more A330 frames. If the A310 got legs to fly non stop YYZ-BEG, I bet it is still much better than what it used to be with Skyservice.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 12:58 AM   #1626
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Excellent news. I look forward to this happening. Was expecting them sooner since there was an agreement I believe last year. Thanks for posting.

The talk about T2 C section has not much to do with Toronto flights. It already has a five new skybridges + 11 old style from 1980s when T2 was built. This is a 8M capacity airport in a similar league with Budapest. It was just a forgotten airport due to Ex-Yu/Balkan issues.







So right there, 2-3 easly wide body AC could be parked. That is without adding anything. The infrastructure is there. There is also the parking for
the widebody AC where pax could be ferried over to the terminal with some Cobus busses. Too many options. IMHO it is a good candidate for Toronto/JFK flights. Belgrade airport will finish 2010 with just under 3M mark. Also that number is not jacked up by LC carriers. The Lowcost carriers are just expanding in that airport. It is moreover a mix of star aliance, sky-team, one world that funnel the traffic via EU hubs.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 02:58 PM   #1627
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They wanted it. Did they not ask for it? Am I missing something? If they do not believe that they can make a profit of it, they why PUBLICLY state you want to start service there? That is my rationale. If you are not interested in something then why would you ask for it? It is in their economic study that they did.

They were called out on it and got caught with their pants around their ankles. No biggie. Such if life.

Likewise your comment about population or lack thereof does not mean that they would not service smaller centres however on the same hand it was ok to demand access to YYZ but not accept YVR. Is that not a contradiction? My coments are not "simplified". Before I respond I take into account different aspects. I happily accept if I made a mistake and take the correction where needed.

Anyhow, that is all and I believe that we should take the thread back to what it is about. Services to YYZ. This is done and we which includes you and me have no control at this present time. Until it is sorted out, I am not wasting any further time discussing the pros and cons of additional service. If they get more service, bully for them. If not, no big deal as like what was said elsewhere, someone else will step in.
I suspect EK may want limited access to Vancouver and Calgary, but the core of their expansion strategy is Toronto. All three are a package and could not be cherry-picked. So when Toronto was not even offered, the rest fell apart as well. But I can't speak for EK on what their underyling reasons. It could be a simple concession to lose money on Vancouver but make it back from more Toronto. But from a logical thought process, flying from Dubai to the West Coast for connecting passengers to India doesn't make much economic sense.

YVR's economic feasibility isn't so much population based, but more on how far existing aircrafts can fly without making fuel stopovers. There's a big Indian population there, but it's more efficient to fly west than to fly east. It's always a combination of factors, and population is not the end of it. I think you're confusing the multiple factors that impact airline route planning. They don't contradict each other.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 03:03 PM   #1628
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Originally Posted by ACT7 View Post
Since when does an airline need to fly to a destination to codeshare?? AC doesn't fly to Delhi but codeshares with LH and Jet Airways. My point that if the UAE wanted to offer at least something positive for AC, then an agreement could be established to allow AC to codeshare on, say Dubai - Mumbai, Dubai - Sri Lanka - just a thought. In fact AC does codeshare with EK from LHR but just to DXB, not beyond so establishing a further codeshare agreement probably wouldn't be that difficult.



It's really odd how fixated you are on Yellowknife (and now Winnipeg and Moncton for some reason). I'm pretty sure neither Ottawa, AC, the UAE or EK ever laid Yellowknife on the table. The reason that YYC and YVR were offered is because EK sponsored a study outlining the benefits of flying from those cities. Canada, AC and probably everyone else knew it was bullsh*t so unfortunately you can't claim that how agreements are negotiated doesn't play a role. It most certainly does and it speaks volumes as to how future negotiations may take place. Again, I don't think you're seeing the big picture. No one on this forum has stated that EK shouldn't be given further access to YYZ or Canada in general but if it takes time, so be it, it takes time. Canada has its policies, Australia has its policies, Germany, France, the UK and so on. Every other country/airline on the planet seems to be playing by the same rules so for the UAE to feel it has the god-given right to not is a little baffling. It's an arrogant, egotistical, and self-righteous country...period, full stop.

Codesharing only works when an airline flies to a place where a codeshare partner can pick up the passengers. AC does not fly to Doha or Dubai or Abu Dhabi, so codesharing with Qatar, Etihad, and Emirates would not work. AC can try to codeshare and hub in London, but that means 2 stops to get to India. It's not something the Middle East carriers will find attractive. Why not just do 1 stop and hub out of Frankfurt instead?

I expected the UAE and EK to negotiate very aggressively. They're not exactly a friendly competitor holding hands and dancing around the camp fire. They have expanded enormously over the past few years, and it's quite remarkable how much traffic they have generated and how much air rights the UAE has negotiated with scores of countries. But should Canada stop them from expanding because they're bullying Ottawa? Or should Ottawa see the big picture and understand more competition is good for consumers and more flights mean more economic spinoff for the country? Then the question is whether Canada should put consumer rights above its pride on the negotiating table?
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Old November 16th, 2010, 03:04 PM   #1629
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Pearson stepping up its green initiatives
13 November 2010
The Toronto Star
http://www.thestar.com/travel/articl...en-initiatives

I was reading one of the more insidery of the newsletters I subscribe to, one that reports exclusively on airport technology. It's usually filled with stories about which company got which baggage system contract, or how the Ethiopian civil aviation authority had upgraded its radar to monopulse secondary surveillance. I mostly skim.

But last week I stumbled on a piece about green airports. More interesting. So I read the whole thing, but it was the last line that struck me. "[P]assengers may yet see the day," it perorated, after discussing how European airports are reducing and re-using and in one case even becoming carbon neutral, "when they can board a plane without harbouring a vague sense of guilt."

Do business travellers harbour vague senses of guilt about how they do what they do for a living? I did a quick poll among a few frequent flyers. "Yup," allergist and regular conference attendee Dr. Andrew Moore wrote back. "Yes, I do," said Dan Legault, CEO of Antibe Therapeutics, a pharmaceutical company on King Street. Ditto Markus Bierl, CIO for food services company Franke.

So it's a thing, then, this vague guilt. With the exception of carbon offsets, there's not much you can do if you have to fly for work. They're working on biofuels and more efficient jet engines, but it'll be a while before air travel accounts for much less than the 650 million tonnes of man-made CO2 - 2 per cent of the planet's total - it spat out last year.

But airports are a different matter. In the spirit of doing what we can - turning out lights, wearing sweaters indoors in the fall instead of turning on the heat - are the airports we use to do all our dirty, dirty travelling at least doing what they can?

Like the fellow in Airport Technology was saying, they are in Europe, especially Stockholm's Arlanda airport. But what about here?

I called the Greater Toronto Airport Authority, the body that owns and runs Pearson, an airport so big that if you were to plop it onto midtown, it would flatten everything from Bloor to College, and from Spadina to Yonge. Thirty million passengers went through the airport last year, and more than 400 million tonnes of cargo. They put me in touch with Toby Lennox, the vice president of corporate affairs and communications, and chair of the GTAA's Community Environment and Noise Advisement committee and the Partners in Project Green steering committee.

It turns out they have a plan, like many companies these days. They call it 20/2020, and it entails reducing their greenhouse gas emissions to 20 per cent lower than 2006 levels by 2020. They're switching off lights, and doing a test of geothermal heating on one of their fire halls next year. And their new fire-training building is designated LEED Silver, one of the highest eco-friendly ratings there is.

What's way more interesting is what Lennox told me about the practical, low-tech, common-sense things they do in relation to the dirty, dirty planes themselves.

"Cathay Pacific were doing their crew checks after they pushed off from the gate with their engines running," he says, speaking of China's largest international airline. "We monitored this and told them to do that at the gate, and they agreed."

They also supply the three things every aircraft needs when docked at a gate - conditioned air, potable water and power - obviating the need for the planes to use their own fuel-powered generators, as they will at many other airports.

They've also instituted an exception to the Transport Canada rule that Pearson planes must get to an altitude of 3,600 feet before they can make turns. The rule's in place because turning a jet can be very noisy. But these days, they instruct the props to turn at 500 feet (and the smaller jets at 1,100 feet) so they can get them on their way faster, saving fuel, and out of the way of the hungrier jets idling on the runway, also saving fuel. With 1,100 flights daily at Pearson, it adds up.

Lennox also expressed interest in what are known as continuous descent or green landings. Already common in 33 European airports - and being introduced at as modest an operation as Malaga airport this month - it involves allowing planes to essentially glide into the runways, idling rather than revving their engines. It can save as much as 300 kilograms of carbon emissions and it's quieter, too. Some Transport Canada rules are in the way of full implementation for the moment, Lennox says, but it's high on his list for future improvements.

Airports count for about 5 per cent of the greenhouse gas emissions the aviation industry's responsible for. But if they continue to behave like Pearson, encouraging better practices from the planes that take off and land there, their reach could be quite a bit longer, and their ability to assuage the guilt of some business travellers that much greater.

Bert Archer is the Toronto Star's business and tech travel columnist.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 03:47 PM   #1630
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Per Airliners.net:

Sri Lankan wants to start 4 weekly flights to YYZ via LGW. There has been some suggestions that they should do it via ZRH due to the large Sri Lankan population. I knew this was coming down the pipes as there has been rumblings that negotiations will start soon:

Article:
http://newsfirst.lk/index.php?option...ems&Itemid=204

Airliners.net link:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo....main/4984374/
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Old November 16th, 2010, 03:48 PM   #1631
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Holy smokes!! I'm away from my computer for a week and this thread is gone viral! LOL.
Great debate guys... I think we should just agree to disagree. (re: EK/UAE)
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Old November 16th, 2010, 04:04 PM   #1632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
I suspect EK may want limited access to Vancouver and Calgary, but the core of their expansion strategy is Toronto. All three are a package and could not be cherry-picked. So when Toronto was not even offered, the rest fell apart as well. But I can't speak for EK on what their underyling reasons.
But you are speaking on behalf of EK. You made the assumption as to the position of EK.

Assumption: an assumption is a proposition that is taken for granted, as if it were true based upon presupposition without preponderance of the facts

Assume: to take upon oneself; to take for granted or without proof

So we will leave it up to EK to respond when they are ready, and I am pretty sure they will because we don't know the facts and therefore cannot surmise as to what their position is.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 04:13 PM   #1633
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Holy smokes!! I'm away from my computer for a week and this thread is gone viral! LOL.
Great debate guys... I think we should just agree to disagree. (re: EK/UAE)
Welcome back! Viral!! LOL. All good. I have let it go and moved on. I am working on world peace now!
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Old November 16th, 2010, 04:25 PM   #1634
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But you are speaking on behalf of EK. You made the assumption as to the position of EK.

Assumption: an assumption is a proposition that is taken for granted, as if it were true based upon presupposition without preponderance of the facts

Assume: to take upon oneself; to take for granted or without proof

So we will leave it up to EK to respond when they are ready, and I am pretty sure they will because we don't know the facts and therefore cannot surmise as to what their position is.
We don't have the complete facts. Nobody here, not even yourself, can prove anything with certainty.Those who claim the UAE is negotiating in bad faith are also making assumptions from incomplete information. What I'm doing is analyzing why EK may not prefer Vancouver/Calgary over Toronto based on economics, which drives profit and route planning.

But then, you don't need the full negotiation transcript to understand from an airline operational perspective, the long flight from the West Coast to Dubai makes India-bound connections unattractive.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 05:44 PM   #1635
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Originally Posted by Toronto_41 View Post
Per Airliners.net:

Sri Lankan wants to start 4 weekly flights to YYZ via LGW. There has been some suggestions that they should do it via ZRH due to the large Sri Lankan population. I knew this was coming down the pipes as there has been rumblings that negotiations will start soon:

Article:
http://newsfirst.lk/index.php?option...ems&Itemid=204

Airliners.net link:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo....main/4984374/
Awsome news if this happens. I've always kind of wondered why Sri Lankan didn't have flights here - probably lack of aircraft - but this would be a welcome addition.

Nice to see most of us have moved on...
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Old November 16th, 2010, 08:02 PM   #1636
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Taxes keep carriers from competing with U.S.
13 November 2010
The Globe and Mail

Air Canada chief executive officer Calin Rovinescu is sounding the alarm on the growing clout of U.S. airports poaching Canadian travellers, saying Ottawa's aviation policies are harming this country's airline sector.

Florida's Spirit Airlines will begin flights in January from terminals in Niagara Falls and Plattsburgh, N.Y., part of a trend where carriers at U.S. airports are stepping up efforts to lure Canadians with bargain fares.

American airports enjoy major cost advantages over their Canadian counterparts, translating into vastly lower landing fees charged to carriers and reduced ticket prices for U.S. destinations, Mr. Rovinescu said.

“We increasingly see Canadians driving across the border to Buffalo, to Plattsburgh, to Seattle to get on flights because they are cheaper,” he told the Canadian Club of Toronto on Friday. “Consider Buffalo – nearly 40 per cent of the cars parked at that airport's long-term spots are Canadian licence plates.”

Canada's biggest airports paid nearly $260-million in federal rent last year, a cost that “drives up our costs dramatically and unfairly, thereby making Canada less competitive,” said Mr. Rovinescu, who estimates Air Canada would save almost $1-billion a year “if it were a U.S. airline with the same volume of business.”

Besides rent, other revenue-generating sources for Ottawa include the Air Travellers Security Charge, aviation fuel taxes and GST, say critics, who note that the U.S. government subsidizes American air terminals.

Mr. Rovinescu and low-cost American carriers say that Ottawa should overhaul the high-tax aviation regime. JetBlue Airways Corp. and Denver-based Frontier Airlines will consider Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver as potential destinations if Ottawa were to scrap rent and chop other taxes to clear the way for airports to slash landing fees.

“The elimination of ground rent would make Canadian airports cheaper to fly to, and that would be helpful,” said Daniel Shurz, Frontier's vice-president of planning and strategy and a former executive at Air Canada.

Scott Laurence, JetBlue's vice-president of network planning, said the New York-based carrier is turned off by the expensive nature of operating in Canada. “JetBlue would like to fly to Canada, but we rely on low costs in order to offer travellers low fares.”

Ottawa has said it plans to stick with its rent-collection strategy.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 09:09 AM   #1637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto_41 View Post
Per Airliners.net:

Sri Lankan wants to start 4 weekly flights to YYZ via LGW. There has been some suggestions that they should do it via ZRH due to the large Sri Lankan population. I knew this was coming down the pipes as there has been rumblings that negotiations will start soon:

Article:
http://newsfirst.lk/index.php?option...ems&Itemid=204

Airliners.net link:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo....main/4984374/
That is a super long shot my friend. Without high yield in the front cabin, there is no way to make the flights profitable. I do not think there is that kind of market in YYZ. There isn't any economic ties with Sri Lanka and Canada to make ultra longhauls profitable. That is the way I see it. Than again, it would be sweet to see them here just for a sake of it.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 05:16 PM   #1638
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That is a super long shot my friend. Without high yield in the front cabin, there is no way to make the flights profitable. I do not think there is that kind of market in YYZ. There isn't any economic ties with Sri Lanka and Canada to make ultra longhauls profitable. That is the way I see it. Than again, it would be sweet to see them here just for a sake of it.
There may not be strong economic ties at the moment but opening up a flight (via LGW - not direct) and it could work. Toronto has the highest population of Sri Lankans outside of Sri Lanka (certainly in the Western world anyway) so there is a community-based connection for sure. I also think that with Air India, EK and EY running full flights to the sub-continent, there could be a strong enough business component to make the flights profitable for Sri Lankan - AI, EK, EY run-off if you will...just my opinion.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 07:44 AM   #1639
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I have quite a few Sri Lankan friends from that part of the world. We are talking about the state torn a part from the war that lasted well over the two decades. The fact that we have so many Sri lankans does not mean anything. Some lost the war and can't go back there. The other side is also fed up with it and moved on. Than you have the rest that have not been there in a long time. That's what you have when you break down the demographic chart. Also the ones that go on a visit, they may go once in a year, and (that is not much to support the flights).


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There may not be strong economic ties at the moment but opening up a flight (via LGW - not direct) and it could work. Toronto has the highest population of Sri Lankans outside of Sri Lanka (certainly in the Western world anyway) so there is a community-based connection for sure. I also think that with Air India, EK and EY running full flights to the sub-continent, there could be a strong enough business component to make the flights profitable for Sri Lankan - AI, EK, EY run-off if you will...just my opinion.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 10:09 AM   #1640
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Actually, I recall seeing EK A380s at Heathrow already.
Since Nov 1st 2010 JFK has been upgraded to A380. So far

YYZ
JFK
LHR

+ Asia and Aussie destinations. LH get ready to bend over! haha
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