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Old April 18th, 2007, 06:40 PM   #1061
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Originally Posted by brewcityfan View Post
You can't have a standard no-TIF rule that applies throughout.
Why can't they? After all, the Entire Park East area is already a TIF district. Why should the taxpayers have to pay more? The land will be developed sooner or later without having to give greedy developers even more of a handout than there already is. I don't like seeing those empty lots anymore than you do, but geez...
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Old April 18th, 2007, 07:14 PM   #1062
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If developers are turned off by the city's refusal to offer aid, we both might be seeing those empty lots a lot longer than previously thought. Greedy developers? You bet they are. And not to put a smiley face on that, but who wouldn't be greedy about this?

And I think the taxpayers aren't realizing that these developments will pay themselves off in a couple years. We're always so short-term these days it ain't even funny.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 07:15 PM   #1063
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And the worry that these developments might grab The Grand Avenue tenants is, IMO, bs - because right now I can't think of any store that any developer would want that's currently in The Grand.
It's less of an issue of stealing existing tenants away from the grand, and more of an issue about shifting the retail sector of downtown away from the grand, a building the city and a lot of people have put a lot of money into. The city is looking long term at future retail tenants downtown and where they will locate.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 07:17 PM   #1064
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park east tif

Milwaukee, WY> Said it best the Park East was already TIFed to the tune of 20 mil.

And maybe just maybe you give Mr. D'Amato too much credit. What he is proposing is changing how things have worked for 20 years and basically overruling DCD whenever it is politically beneficial as opposed to finacially responsible. Kinda opens politics at the local level to things like all the hoopla over Doyle and Troha.

Further Marcus had nothing to say about the Staybridge being built on Water St, right now with no TIF dollars.

And again you can't tell me that the Park East won't fill in organicly over time as the developments around it (Pabst, North End, Manpower, FlatIron, Staybridge) are finished.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 07:18 PM   #1065
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a couple years

Try 17 to 27 years.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 07:48 PM   #1066
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Originally Posted by exit_320 View Post
It's less of an issue of stealing existing tenants away from the grand, and more of an issue about shifting the retail sector of downtown away from the grand, a building the city and a lot of people have put a lot of money into. The city is looking long term at future retail tenants downtown and where they will locate.
Just wondering, do you really think decent tenants will want to look into The Grand, where right now people really aren't supporting (since most of its regular retail stores closed and some feel it to be seedy) the mall? I don't know if we could ever land tenants that were previously there.

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Milwaukee, WY> Said it best the Park East was already TIFed to the tune of 20 mil.

And maybe just maybe you give Mr. D'Amato too much credit. What he is proposing is changing how things have worked for 20 years and basically overruling DCD whenever it is politically beneficial as opposed to finacially responsible. Kinda opens politics at the local level to things like all the hoopla over Doyle and Troha.

Further Marcus had nothing to say about the Staybridge being built on Water St, right now with no TIF dollars.

And again you can't tell me that the Park East won't fill in organicly over time as the developments around it (Pabst, North End, Manpower, FlatIron, Staybridge) are finished.
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Try 17 to 27 years.
Doyle and Troha?! Holy cow that's a whole different subject pertaining to casino development 20 miles south of us.

The Staybridge that is being built didn't get complaints from Marcus probably because Staybridge isn't at the hotel ranking his hotels are at. The proposals he's against have hotels that could directly compete with his big 3 hotels.

Financially responsible? These developments will end up turning in more tax dollars to the city. Creating a larger tax base isn't financially responsible?

17 to 27 years?? I'll be 48 years old if its 27 years! Talk about taking forever.... what happens if Chicago lands the Olympics in 2016? That's only 10 years away....you're figure of a minimum 17 doesn't sound very good if we want to lure more visitors to Milwaukee by the Olympiad.

These examples you mentioned are also being supported by the city. Pabst has a TIF, North End landed a TIF and Manpower got a free parking structure! Good examples....
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Old April 18th, 2007, 07:53 PM   #1067
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Just wondering, do you really think decent tenants will want to look into The Grand, where right now people really aren't supporting (since most of its regular retail stores closed and some feel it to be seedy) the mall? I don't know if we could ever land tenants that were previously there.





Doyle and Troha?! Holy cow that's a whole different subject pertaining to casino development 20 miles south of us.

The Staybridge that is being built didn't get complaints from Marcus probably because Staybridge isn't at the hotel ranking his hotels are at. The proposals he's against have hotels that could directly compete with his big 3 hotels.

17 to 27 years?? I'll be 48 years old if its 27 years! Talk about taking forever.... what happens if Chicago lands the Olympics in 2016? That's only 10 years away....you're figure of a minimum 17 doesn't sound very good if we want to lure more visitors to Milwaukee by the Olympiad.

These examples you mentioned are also being supported by the city. Pabst has a TIF, North End landed a TIF and Manpower got a free parking structure! Good examples....
You're missing the point! The Park East already has a TIF. Why do they need another one??? The city already has invested in the land! The TIF is what takes 17-27 years to pay off, and that's if the venture succeeds, imagine the ramifications if it failed.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 08:00 PM   #1068
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You're missing the point! The Park East already has a TIF. Why do they need another one??? The city already has invested in the land! The TIF is what takes 17-27 years to pay off, and that's if the venture succeeds, imagine the ramifications if it failed.
Sorry about the time figure. I didn't realize it was for paying off the TIF. A question to you then: Do you think some of these will fail?
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Old April 18th, 2007, 08:07 PM   #1069
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Sorry about the time figure. I didn't realize it was for paying off the TIF. A question to you then: Do you think some of these will fail?
No, not necessairly, but I think that giving a developer a 20 year tax reprieve for a development that might, just might compete with what is already downtown is kind of a slap in the face to those already there.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 08:35 PM   #1070
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No, not necessairly, but I think that giving a developer a 20 year tax reprieve for a development that might, just might compete with what is already downtown is kind of a slap in the face to those already there.
But at least those developers interested, both new and old, would know that they too could get some assistance from the city for their projects as well - like Marcus.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 08:54 PM   #1071
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This is boring.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 09:04 PM   #1072
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TIF Repayment

First of I was refering to the time of repayment of the loan for a TIF when I said 17 to 27 years... but i think its more like 17 to 20 or 22... (Markitect I'm sure you have the right numbers).

And I'm not against all TIFs in fact I think they can do great things, where needed. Such as bringing Manpower downtown, because it has and will spur other development. Such as tearing down that ugly blighting tannery, and building the roads and infrastructure, to allow the North End to happen. Such as building the infrastructure so the Brewery can be reborn and so on. But not all projects automatically get a TIF just because an Alderman wants one.

The Doyle and Troha reference was that when politics enters too early into the debate as D'Amato is asking to do (changing how TIF policy has existed in Milwaukee for 20 years) it can become prone for either the appearance of impropriety or true impropriety.

Financially responsible... if they don't repay the TIF, which *I* believe is one of the concern of DCDs then in fact they'll of added to the tax burden. This I don't know but clearly one of the things DCD/city comptroller does when looking at a TIF request is do the numbers work?

I guess maybe I'd be curious as to what exactly is so great about the RSC development that you believe it deserves a TIF?
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Old April 18th, 2007, 09:38 PM   #1073
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This is boring.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 10:04 PM   #1074
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Quote:
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First of I was refering to the time of repayment of the loan for a TIF when I said 17 to 27 years... but i think its more like 17 to 20 or 22... (Markitect I'm sure you have the right numbers).

And I'm not against all TIFs in fact I think they can do great things, where needed. Such as bringing Manpower downtown, because it has and will spur other development. Such as tearing down that ugly blighting tannery, and building the roads and infrastructure, to allow the North End to happen. Such as building the infrastructure so the Brewery can be reborn and so on. But not all projects automatically get a TIF just because an Alderman wants one.

The Doyle and Troha reference was that when politics enters too early into the debate as D'Amato is asking to do (changing how TIF policy has existed in Milwaukee for 20 years) it can become prone for either the appearance of impropriety or true impropriety.

Financially responsible... if they don't repay the TIF, which *I* believe is one of the concern of DCDs then in fact they'll of added to the tax burden. This I don't know but clearly one of the things DCD/city comptroller does when looking at a TIF request is do the numbers work?

I guess maybe I'd be curious as to what exactly is so great about the RSC development that you believe it deserves a TIF?
I sent my apologies a few posts back about the time, it was a misunderstanding. And I wasn't trying to promote just the RSC development as "oh so great" - but as the project that will be deterimining which developers we're going to get and what they're going to do in that area and how soon in the future. Ruvin is also looking at RSC's case as precedent to what they're overall plans are going to be for their projects, for example.

And honestly for those who feel talking about issues like these as "boring" then maybe you should find a different forum. Issues like this brought forth will have implications across the downtown area pertaining to development, which I thought that's all you guys like to talk about - the glory and majesty of downtown Milwaukee. To top it off, there's really no other big news going on concerning other developments in the city and we can't talk about anything else other than development issues on this thread. So what's your plan?
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Old April 18th, 2007, 10:14 PM   #1075
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And the worry that these developments might grab The Grand Avenue tenants is, IMO, bs - because right now I can't think of any store that any developer would want that's currently in The Grand.
What about Border's, TJ Maxx, Linen's and Things, Office Max, Boston Store, Old Navy?

The City already TIF'd the Grand Avenue, why should they provide another TIF to a developer who is going to bring in competing retailers? That would make absolutely no sense. Competition is fine if it is done in the private market, but if they City is subsidizing both sides of that, it is stupid.

And I'm not going to argue about Ghazi anymore, but just because something was or was not said in the press, doesn't make it true.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 10:51 PM   #1076
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no prob

brewcityfan> yea I was just trying to clarify that I had the years a little longer than was correct... no biggie

Ruvin isn't looking at RSC as a precedent they both knew going in the situation and are now trying to use the media to put political pressure on what should be a finacial/plan/design/use decision. Why do you think Ruvin annouced another hotel, to put more pressure on to get money. Would I love to see a Kimpton downtown, yea that would be cool but the point is that this is land that will develop in all likelyhood with or without these specific projects whereas in general you use a TIF to develop something that wouldn't of happened without assistance.

PS Watch the last ZND meeting for a very interesting discussion on the RSC project (even thogh it wasn't on the agenda).

PSS Further brewcityfan I agree this is important to talk about and far from boring.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 11:12 PM   #1077
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But at least those developers interested, both new and old, would know that they too could get some assistance from the city for their projects as well - like Marcus.
Wait, so now every development should get a TIF, just as long as it will pay off in the 27 years allowed by law? If that were the case, we wouldn't recieve any increase in tax base for new projects for 27 years after they are done.

The criteria for providing a TIF is not if it will pay off or not. The criteria is that it is a blight, its development will provide a public benefit and that it would not happen "but for" the TIF.

I want to build a house, but can't pay to put a really nice master bathroom in...City please give me a $10,000 TIF and I promise that you will start getting your additional taxes by 2035. Doesn't work that way.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 11:36 PM   #1078
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What about Border's, TJ Maxx, Linen's and Things, Office Max, Boston Store, Old Navy?

The City already TIF'd the Grand Avenue, why should they provide another TIF to a developer who is going to bring in competing retailers? That would make absolutely no sense. Competition is fine if it is done in the private market, but if they City is subsidizing both sides of that, it is stupid.

And I'm not going to argue about Ghazi anymore, but just because something was or was not said in the press, doesn't make it true.
Alright so The Grand does have some stores that might be of value. But Boston Store has Bon Ton's Northern Group based in the same building, and just remodeled the whole thing a few years back. And, well, I was thinking perhaps developers want to attract higher end stores, which they wouldn't be yanking from The Grand or competing with The Grand. I just had the strong feel that retailers right now need to see some more improvements in that mall before they'd even consider moving in or back in.

And agreed - because the Ghazi development is something we can all say is a decent idea.

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Wait, so now every development should get a TIF, just as long as it will pay off in the 27 years allowed by law? If that were the case, we wouldn't recieve any increase in tax base for new projects for 27 years after they are done.

The criteria for providing a TIF is not if it will pay off or not. The criteria is that it is a blight, its development will provide a public benefit and that it would not happen "but for" the TIF.

I want to build a house, but can't pay to put a really nice master bathroom in...City please give me a $10,000 TIF and I promise that you will start getting your additional taxes by 2035. Doesn't work that way.
I mentioned other developers looking for TIFs in the future, new and old, because you mentioned unfair practices that could be done if older projects didn't receive any while newer ones might. Perhaps making the city receive the benefits of a TIF sooner would be a better option for everyone involved - the fact of 27 years does sound a bit silly. And comparing a house to an office/residential/retail center downtown is a bit interesting too.
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Old April 19th, 2007, 12:41 AM   #1079
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WEDNESDAY, April 18, 2007, 4:17 p.m.
By Doris Hajewski

Bon-Ton to lease space in Reuss building
Boston Store's corporate parent will expand its offices here by leasing 42,000 square feet in the Reuss Federal Plaza building at 310 W. Wisconsin Ave., the company said today.

Bon-Ton Stores Inc. (BONT) of York, Pa., acquired Saks Inc.'s northern department store group last year. The department store group, which was headquartered in the Boston Store building at N. 4th St. and W. Wisconsin Ave., includes Boston Store, Carson Pirie Scott, Bergner's, Herberger's and Younkers.

After the acquisition, Bon-Ton maintained its corporate headquarters in York, but retained the merchandising, marketing and advertising functions at the Milwaukee office. Some jobs in those categories were moved from York to Milwaukee, bringing the total employment at the Milwaukee office to 700, up from 560 at the time of the sale.

The extra space in the Reuss building is needed for Bon-Ton's private label merchants and store operations. The new offices are expected to be completed by July.
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Old April 19th, 2007, 01:42 AM   #1080
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I love to hear that more corporate space is being leased out. Thank you Bon-Ton Stores! Def made my day...
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