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Old April 24th, 2007, 08:00 AM   #1141
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brewcityfan> Um I know I'm not against all TIFs. But this project proves the point many of us were making that given the right developers there's no need to TIF upscale hotels! This project is not an office building and appears to have the hotel lined up as well as the money so right now it seems more likely to happen.

LPT is completely different they couldn't ever get a tenant lined up, hell they couldn't even get Baird to move across the street! Further yes some projects will make it and others won't but look to the developers. The developers living in their fantasy world assume we'll give them a handout everytime.
I wasn't pointing out any single person - some support TIFs, some don't, some are in-between. And Amen Twoaday that this project isn't an office building, because we might be sitting here for months debating on whether or not we think this could get approved. Condos and a hotel sound very safe. Even safer without the phrase TIF involved. Unfortunately many buildings proposed (Water St/Block 6 and 12, Chase addition, LPT, etc) have an office component, and some (Ruvin/Gatehouse, RSC) have TIF interests included.

Now if LPT focused on the Westin (which Starwood said would definitely be interested in) and condos solely - you might see approvals and cranes by now.

And let's be honest here - SOME will go through and SOME won't? That's a lot more optimistic than what we usually hear. I'm proud of your optimism, and am glad to hear it.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 08:19 AM   #1142
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i like the design and would happy with 30 stories, but i think we have enough white in our skyline. I'm not saying don't build it, but i'm not sure about the white.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 09:03 AM   #1143
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I don't mind the white, as long as it is spread out across the skyline; I think it is something which gives milwaukee a distinct skyline.

As far as office development in Milwaukee, I think if we bring the residents, we will also bring the offices, and vice versa. As long as you are attracting people, whether it is offices, or residence, or tourists, it will create a draw for the other areas. Vibrancy is attractive to people.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 09:10 AM   #1144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewcityfan
You say that Bluewarning is wrong by claiming LPT is dead, but then go on and say all the points that make this proposal what it is today - very, very dead.
If a developer is still working on a proposal, then surely it cannot be considered dead. It may very well be a long shot with all of the hurdles it still has to overcome, but it hasn't been canceled or rejected at this point in time....and canceled or rejected seems to be a pretty good definition of a dead proposal.

Lake Point Tower has neither been canceled or rejected, and developers are still working on clearing the aforementioned hurdles. At this point its uncertainty makes it a long shot, but not dead.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 04:16 PM   #1145
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Old April 24th, 2007, 04:32 PM   #1146
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optimism

brewcityfan> Oh yes I'm very optimistic about this project and a couple others. One thing thats been fairly consistant in Milwaukee for the last couple of years has been the number of tower cranes (around 7), as it seems that when one comes down a new project gets under way and keeps it consitent. I'm guessing the Staybridge will replace River Renaissance crane to keep us about steady. Yes I look at the number of cranes as an indicator of how many significant projects are underway.

Right now things are a little slow with the last major development to break ground being the Staybridge, but this summer we should see Domus and the Edge break ground and the Pabst and the North End begin demolition so things are still moving ahead. If anything else could get going in the Park East that would be even better. And hopefully the FlatIron could be finished already!

But one thing people don't realized is that we really don't want the entire Park East to develop at the same instance. What you would get then is Disneyland as all the styles would probably be very similiar. And as Jane Jacobs points out a city needs a variety of building ages to allow for a variety of rental rates as well and a diversity of uses. So It is actually better if each year things keep poping up.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 05:40 PM   #1147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honest86 View Post
As far as office development in Milwaukee, I think if we bring the residents, we will also bring the offices, and vice versa. As long as you are attracting people, whether it is offices, or residence, or tourists, it will create a draw for the other areas. Vibrancy is attractive to people.
This may happen with time, but for right now the office market in Downtown Milwaukee is pretty weak. What we need the most right now is a "big win," a major corporation or a strong new company in an emerging industry to relocate Downtown from out of state. The growth in Downtown resdential development is great for the city, but that growth alone cannot spark a resurgance of Downtown Milwaukee as a business center. The residential growth in Downtown Milwaukee represents "used" money, that is, money that has already been in the metropolitan area for some time. What we need right now is some "new" money, some new investment from outside the metro area. A major investment of "new" money would enliven the office market considerably.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 07:34 PM   #1148
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well, I am already assuming LPT is dead. Ruvin is a go, Ghazi will most likely be a go, the Staybridge is U.C., and this, the Water St. tower, and Chase projects have said they dont need a TIF. I think its a possibility all of these are built.
I love your optimism, and I hope you are correct.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 07:41 PM   #1149
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You say that Bluewarning is wrong by claiming LPT is dead, but then go on and say all the points that make this proposal what it is today - very, very dead. These buildings need office tenants. The majority of Milwaukee posters pretty much generally claim that downtown Milwaukee's tax atmosphere is preventing businesses locating downtown. Some of these projects have developers that want city assistance. Some posters on here are strongly against that assistance, and the city leaders (except for some on the Common Council) agree.

So, why not cut all the bs gentlemen. These developers planning buildings in Milwaukee are just living in their own fantasy world - because in reality (or the reality that this forum sometimes gives the feeling of) barely any of these will pass out of city hall's front door.


If this building becomes a reality - this would add class, feeling, and a much needed anchor building to the western edge of downtown. Let's remain positive until something proves us otherwise. My only wish would be that Ruvin add onto or change its design scheme for the building across the street. Another wish would probably be to change the color. Milwaukee is becoming way too white for my taste.
Look out...I'M AGREEING WITH BREWCITY!!! And hell hasn't even frozen over... Proposals are nice, but until the shovel gets put into the ground, that's all they are: proposals. Heck, most of us could propose a building, but what's behind it?

And, yes, Milwaukee is becoming too white, IMHO. This rendering reminds me of UCT, and we already have one of those. Hoping it gets built, and hoping it undergoes some style and color changes, too.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 07:58 PM   #1150
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rivianna

I'm don't know if anyone noticed but the Rivianna project received approval from the City Planning Commision yesterday for their General Plan Development.

And they have a website now http://www.rivianna.com
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Old April 24th, 2007, 08:32 PM   #1151
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I'm don't know if anyone noticed but the Rivianna project received approval from the City Planning Commision yesterday for their General Plan Development.

And they have a website now http://www.rivianna.com
Sorry, not a big fan of this development. It looks nice and will do good things for the Third Ward (like it needs it), but this is one of those significantly-sized projects that dilutes density and skyline opportunities downtown. I would get more excited if this developer showed some guts and built this along the river, say, west of the Milwaukee Market and do a 25-30 story project...or someplace where there is an opportunity to fill in the skyline. I mean, the scope of this project could add up to perhaps as many as 40 stories with a signature look to it! It is better than nothing, but it does further saturate the market and detract from taller developments.

BTW, Inc. Magazine came out with its list of best cities in which to do business, and Milwaukee-Waukesha came in at 321 out of 393 metro areas in the country...yeah, not good, but I bet if we continue to raise taxes in this state and Milwaukee County, and make it easier to sue businesses at the drop of a hat while taxing them into submission...well, then I'm sure we'll zoom right to the top of the list. Point is, ours is not a friendly business climate, and the results show it.

http://www.inc.com/bestcities

Last edited by Skyking2; April 24th, 2007 at 08:40 PM.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 09:29 PM   #1152
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brewcityfan> Oh yes I'm very optimistic about this project and a couple others. One thing thats been fairly consistant in Milwaukee for the last couple of years has been the number of tower cranes (around 7), as it seems that when one comes down a new project gets under way and keeps it consitent. I'm guessing the Staybridge will replace River Renaissance crane to keep us about steady. Yes I look at the number of cranes as an indicator of how many significant projects are underway.

Right now things are a little slow with the last major development to break ground being the Staybridge, but this summer we should see Domus and the Edge break ground and the Pabst and the North End begin demolition so things are still moving ahead. If anything else could get going in the Park East that would be even better. And hopefully the FlatIron could be finished already!

But one thing people don't realized is that we really don't want the entire Park East to develop at the same instance. What you would get then is Disneyland as all the styles would probably be very similiar. And as Jane Jacobs points out a city needs a variety of building ages to allow for a variety of rental rates as well and a diversity of uses. So It is actually better if each year things keep poping up.
I never realized there was that many cranes in the downtown area to begin with, so that's very positive. As for projects looking similar - I'd have to say that can be left with the city development committees and common council to tell developers to go back to the drawing board if/when this case comes about. Like the Element Tower, if I may call it such, if I was on the city development panel I'd tell the developer to go back and pick a different color because of white being used too much downtown.

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Originally Posted by Skyking2 View Post
Look out...I'M AGREEING WITH BREWCITY!!! And hell hasn't even frozen over... Proposals are nice, but until the shovel gets put into the ground, that's all they are: proposals. Heck, most of us could propose a building, but what's behind it?

And, yes, Milwaukee is becoming too white, IMHO. This rendering reminds me of UCT, and we already have one of those. Hoping it gets built, and hoping it undergoes some style and color changes, too.
Well, I'm a bit terrified to say the least.....but below is where I get confused with you today skyking.

Quote:
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Sorry, not a big fan of this development. It looks nice and will do good things for the Third Ward (like it needs it), but this is one of those significantly-sized projects that dilutes density and skyline opportunities downtown. I would get more excited if this developer showed some guts and built this along the river, say, west of the Milwaukee Market and do a 25-30 story project...or someplace where there is an opportunity to fill in the skyline. I mean, the scope of this project could add up to perhaps as many as 40 stories with a signature look to it! It is better than nothing, but it does further saturate the market and detract from taller developments.

BTW, Inc. Magazine came out with its list of best cities in which to do business, and Milwaukee-Waukesha came in at 321 out of 393 metro areas in the country...yeah, not good, but I bet if we continue to raise taxes in this state and Milwaukee County, and make it easier to sue businesses at the drop of a hat while taxing them into submission...well, then I'm sure we'll zoom right to the top of the list. Point is, ours is not a friendly business climate, and the results show it.

http://www.inc.com/bestcities
You want proposals to move forward, you want the shovels to begin digging into the ground. You want approvals. And you want a decent skyline. The Element Tower provides an addition to Milwaukee's skyline, and you're possibly against this development. You stand firm against any developer who asks for city assistance, and criticize Wisconsin's tax rates at every turn. Then Rivianna comes around, gets approvals, and isn't anything to do with luring offices - and you're against that as well. I'm not saying to not be picky, but I would say to hold back some of the pickiness.

If Rivianna's height level would have been a 40 story, it would look out of place. Thank the city's code for the Third Ward as the reason for that. I'm sure developers would enjoy building towers on the other side of I-794, but Milwaukee put a strict code that no building can be taller than 14 stories in the Third Ward. This makes a huge hole, if I may say so, in the middle of development if Walker's Point builds towers. Honestly I hate this code, and the historians on this thread can shoot me if they wish. But putting this code in place basically right next to the tallest buildings in downtown Milwaukee is stupid and foolish. It creates that cliff effect you currently see traveling I-94 eastbound - and the city won't approve of anything tall in Walker's Point now because of this reason (I know nothing tall has been proposed but if there ever was - it would be rejected).
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Old April 24th, 2007, 09:44 PM   #1153
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nice list

Dubuque, IA comes in as the #22 city to do business in? Or how about St. George, UT at #1... yea I'm moving my company there! Austin, TX comes in at 110 overall? year right! Austin is one of the cities to be in today... Is Milwaukee near the top no, but come on who's opening businesses in Dubuque!?

We were an industrial/manufacturing town and as the jobs left the US it hurt Milwaukee, that's been the problem not taxes. Further a report out just this year showed that 2/3 of Wisconsin corporations pay zero corporate income taxes. Sounds terrible.

Last edited by Twoaday; April 24th, 2007 at 09:58 PM. Reason: correcting statement
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Old April 24th, 2007, 09:46 PM   #1154
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skyking? I'll agree with u on this the $13 dollar tax on car rentals to pay for the KRM isn't a good plan. Though I'd like to of seen them go with the original idea of the .25% or .5% sales tax to pay for it... of course Walker wouldn't have any of that.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 09:58 PM   #1155
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The Journal Sentinel now has a full article about The Moderne proposal: 1 more hotel is proposed - Park East plan calls for long-term lodging, condos
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Old April 24th, 2007, 09:59 PM   #1156
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Dubuque, IA comes in as the #22 city to do business in? Or how about St. George, UT at #1... yea I'm moving my company there! Austin, TX comes in at 110 overall? year right! Austin is one of the cities to be in today... Is Milwaukee near the top no, but come on who's opening businesses in Dubuque!?

We were an industrial/manufacturing town and as the jobs left the US it hurt Milwaukee, that's been the problem not taxes. Further a report out just this year showed that 2/3 of Wisconsin corporations pay zero taxes. Sounds terrible.
The cities are ranked by size (Dubuque, etc.), and, obviously, there are some other variables to consider when businesses look where to move. But, can you honestly tell me that our taxes are not among the highest in the country?
And can you truthfully tell me that this hasn't been a concern for a number of years? I want to see that report you refer to above. Yes, job loss has hurt Milwaukee (and many "Rust Belt" cities), but you're claiming that Wisconsin taxes are not a problem at all?
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Old April 24th, 2007, 10:08 PM   #1157
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The cities are ranked by size (Dubuque, etc.), and, obviously, there are some other variables to consider when businesses look where to move. But, can you honestly tell me that our taxes are not among the highest in the country?
And can you truthfully tell me that this hasn't been a concern for a number of years? I want to see that report you refer to above. Yes, job loss has hurt Milwaukee (and many "Rust Belt" cities), but you're claiming that Wisconsin taxes are not a problem at all?
But skyking taxes are a problem in every state. The level of concern is the one that's the variable in that. I beg you to read the Wal-Mart thread on the midwest forum here on SSC. Now talk about highway robbery right there concerning businesses and taxes. I'd honestly like to know what NML, US Bank, etc pay for taxes.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 10:12 PM   #1158
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I never realized there was that many cranes in the downtown area to begin with, so that's very positive. As for projects looking similar - I'd have to say that can be left with the city development committees and common council to tell developers to go back to the drawing board if/when this case comes about. Like the Element Tower, if I may call it such, if I was on the city development panel I'd tell the developer to go back and pick a different color because of white being used too much downtown.



Well, I'm a bit terrified to say the least.....but below is where I get confused with you today skyking.



You want proposals to move forward, you want the shovels to begin digging into the ground. You want approvals. And you want a decent skyline. The Element Tower provides an addition to Milwaukee's skyline, and you're possibly against this development. You stand firm against any developer who asks for city assistance, and criticize Wisconsin's tax rates at every turn. Then Rivianna comes around, gets approvals, and isn't anything to do with luring offices - and you're against that as well. I'm not saying to not be picky, but I would say to hold back some of the pickiness.

If Rivianna's height level would have been a 40 story, it would look out of place. Thank the city's code for the Third Ward as the reason for that. I'm sure developers would enjoy building towers on the other side of I-794, but Milwaukee put a strict code that no building can be taller than 14 stories in the Third Ward. This makes a huge hole, if I may say so, in the middle of development if Walker's Point builds towers. Honestly I hate this code, and the historians on this thread can shoot me if they wish. But putting this code in place basically right next to the tallest buildings in downtown Milwaukee is stupid and foolish. It creates that cliff effect you currently see traveling I-94 eastbound - and the city won't approve of anything tall in Walker's Point now because of this reason (I know nothing tall has been proposed but if there ever was - it would be rejected).
It's the Moderne, not Element Tower (that is the name of the proposed hotel), and where did I ever say I was against it? I'd love to see it get built, only that the look of it resembles the UCT somewhat and that a bit different design may be fresher. But, if built as is, I'd welcome it...if it gets built.

I've also never said anything with respect to TIFs (others have), and I didn't say I was against the Rivianna -- only that I wasn't a big fan of it, and a different location would've been my preference...but, then again, I'm not the developer. (Of course, that sort of gives me little room to say much about it). I also never said I'd like to see a taller version of it in the Third Ward proper, as I understand the building codes there - and I wouldn't want to see a tall building in there anyway. Although, in hindsight, I guess anything south of 794 is considered the Third Ward -- so scratch the spot west of the Market. I suggested different "fill-in" spots. It's just that there seems to be many low-to mid-rise developments proposed, and scattered from here to Kingdom Come. I'd hope the city would not allow unrestricted heights for buildings in Walker's Point. That would be just stupid.

Last edited by Skyking2; April 24th, 2007 at 10:18 PM.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 10:26 PM   #1159
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It's the Moderne, not Element Tower (that is the name of the proposed hotel), and where did I ever say I was against it? I'd love to see it get built, only that the look of it resembles the UCT somewhat and that a bit different design may be fresher. But, if built as is, I'd welcome it...if it gets built.

I've also never said anything with respect to TIFs (others have), and I didn't say I was against the Rivianna -- only that I wasn't a big fan of it, and a different location would've been my preference...but, then again, I'm not the developer. (Of course, that sort of gives me little room to say much about it). I also never said I'd like to see a taller version of it in the Third Ward proper, as I understand the building codes there - and I wouldn't want to see a tall building in there anyway. Although, in hindsight, I guess anything south of 794 is considered the Third Ward -- so scratch the spot west of the Market. I suggested different "fill-in" spots. It's just that there seems to be many low-to mid-rise developments proposed, and scattered from here to Kingdom Come. I'd hope the city would not allow unrestricted heights for buildings in Walker's Point. That would be just stupid.
Well excuse me for using the name of the hotel for the building's name as well. I didn't know it was "Moderne" which is kinda cheesy in itself, but ok - you got me! And I'm glad to see you're standing with this project. I wonder what will happen if these developers end up asking for some kind of assistance though. You never said anything about TIFs, but I know Conservatives are generally against TIFs - and the way you go on about taxes it would make sense to see an unvoiced but already known opinion from you concerning people wanting a TIF.

Now you surprised me by supporting the Third Ward being 14 stories max. Another surprising comment was yours concerning keeping Walker's Point buildings restricted somewhat. For a person who wants decent sized buildings, you're sure narrowing the options to north of 794, where I'd like your opinion on the viability of developers wanting high rises away from the Milwaukee River/Lake Michigan.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 11:07 PM   #1160
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No Dubuque was rated #22 overall. That's crazy...

Here's the report:
http://www.wisconsinsfuture.org/taxe...2,25,Wisconsin corporate income tax: Two-thirds of firms pay zero tax

And the source is the Wisconsin Department of Revenue I'd say that's a pretty good source.... Further if you look harder at the report you'll see that yes property and income taxes are high, but that sales taxes and fees are lower than the norm.

Further it points out that Corporations pay a larger percent in most every other state!

PS brewcityfan take a look at the report and you'll see that those companies pay 0 or almost nothing in corporate income tax.
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