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Old July 4th, 2007, 06:08 AM   #1881
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The Riviana projects General Plan Development was also approved today by ZND despite the residents of the Third Ward complaining about its height...
So what's left for them to get approved? Or will they begin construction sometime soon?
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Old July 4th, 2007, 06:41 AM   #1882
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No, it won't begin construction anytime soon, as there is quite a ways to go yet before any ground is broken. It's still early yet. More approvals are needed as the plans for the proposal become more detailed. Plus there are private financing issues that need to be worked out, pre-sales, etc.
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Old July 4th, 2007, 06:00 PM   #1883
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Read this commentary. I'm sure it would just make you wanna puke.

http://www.franklinnow.com/blog/inde...&entryid=40379
It does. I find it absolutely ludicrous that he sites the high cost of light rail but doesn't seem to address the exponentially higher cost of road and highway maintenance. How much is the Marquette Interchange costing again?

As soon as I read to the part where he praised Wendell Cox, I knew the article would merely bring up scary stastistics and not any sort of reasoning. And it makes me even more angry to think that the people out in Franklin (or any other suburb) are actively preventing residents of the city from having the freedom to not drive.
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Old July 4th, 2007, 07:01 PM   #1884
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brewcityfan > For Riviana they just approved their GPD at ZND it still needs to goto the Common Council and then they will come back for their Detailed Plan Development.... plus the other issues Markitect pointed out.

As far as the BreakWater apparently it is further along as I believe they had their Detailed Plan Development approved.. so we may see that one sooner...?

In other news the City Green tower crane has being partially taken down so they must be nearing completion, the Edge has finaly begun some pre-work, and equipment is collecting near the North End...
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Old July 4th, 2007, 09:10 PM   #1885
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It does. I find it absolutely ludicrous that he sites the high cost of light rail but doesn't seem to address the exponentially higher cost of road and highway maintenance. How much is the Marquette Interchange costing again?

As soon as I read to the part where he praised Wendell Cox, I knew the article would merely bring up scary stastistics and not any sort of reasoning. And it makes me even more angry to think that the people out in Franklin (or any other suburb) are actively preventing residents of the city from having the freedom to not drive.


Don't forget that the Marquette interchange is of *critical* importance to the economic well being of the entire eastern third of the state, not just central Milwaukee. A large portion of the state's commerce flows through it, very little of which would be addressed by ANY transit proposal for Milwaukee. It MUST be there. If there were no Marquette (and Zoo, for that matter) interchanges, the economies of Sheboygan, Manitowoc, Green Bay, Appleton, Oshkosh, Fond du Lac, etc, would suffer greatly.

Mike
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Old July 4th, 2007, 09:17 PM   #1886
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It does. I find it absolutely ludicrous that he sites the high cost of light rail but doesn't seem to address the exponentially higher cost of road and highway maintenance. How much is the Marquette Interchange costing again?

As soon as I read to the part where he praised Wendell Cox, I knew the article would merely bring up scary stastistics and not any sort of reasoning. And it makes me even more angry to think that the people out in Franklin (or any other suburb) are actively preventing residents of the city from having the freedom to not drive.
Well he's from the ultra-conservative viewpoint. I'm glad to say I've found many in my community who are frustrated at the status-quo of just blabbing about taxes taxes taxes.....it can be really ridiculous.

Quote:
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brewcityfan > For Riviana they just approved their GPD at ZND it still needs to goto the Common Council and then they will come back for their Detailed Plan Development.... plus the other issues Markitect pointed out.

As far as the BreakWater apparently it is further along as I believe they had their Detailed Plan Development approved.. so we may see that one sooner...?

In other news the City Green tower crane has being partially taken down so they must be nearing completion, the Edge has finaly begun some pre-work, and equipment is collecting near the North End...
Thanks Two and Mark! Glad my question was answered. Also happy to see other projects finally moving their ass...lol
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Old July 5th, 2007, 11:35 AM   #1887
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Well he's from the ultra-conservative viewpoint. I'm glad to say I've found many in my community who are frustrated at the status-quo of just blabbing about taxes taxes taxes.....it can be really ridiculous.
http://www.franklinnow.com/blog/inde...&entryid=40379

This is a very good article, and the author does a decent job of actually illustrating -- with hard statistics -- why light rail is not a good investment for the area. This kind of information would drive supporters of light rail crazy if only they were open-minded enough to understand what they were reading.
Sadly, most of the supporters of light rail (on this thread anyway) get so juiced up over the idea of light rail that they can't think straight. Such as my Franklin friend who just wants to keep paying more and more taxes...ooops, there I go again "blabbing" about taxes.

C'mon, man, don't BS us with your "I've found many in my community who are frustrated" nonsense. I'm sure there must be some of you in Franklin -- and elsewhere --who want to pay a lot of money for something you won't use (light rail), but don't make it sound as though all three of you speak for the masses. That can really be ridiculous.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 04:16 PM   #1888
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Not to de-rail the political jibberjabber... but are any of the light rail proposals a multi-county affair, or are they concentrating on Milwaukee county itself? In my mind, any sort of rail system seems like it would actually benefit the suburbs more because of the increased accesibility of the city. In that sense, doesn't it tend to go against the New Urbanism approach?

If the proposal is just for intra-city travel, then I'm not sure why Mr. FranklinNow would care so much.

Totally lacking any research or stats on cost/benefit of such a proposal, I think a rail line mirroring I-94 westbound from Tosa down through the valley to downtown would seem like the most logical place to relieve congestion. You would hit many of the major attractions including Miller Park, State Fair, Summerfest, Downtown, etc.

Now, I totally understand that this would primarily benefit commuters and tourism/recreation - not eliminate too many current bus lines. I'm just not sure the volumes are sufficient on the buses currently to replace them with light rail anyway. That one corridor is really the one that I think could use an alternative mode of transport.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 04:16 PM   #1889
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Skyking2> Ummm please compare the dollars to subsidize highways/auto to mass transit. Even in that article the LA system in which costs overran tremndously, that was an entire system... How much is the Marquette interchange? How much is the proposed expansion to the border? How much is the propsed rebuilding of the Zoo? Mass transit costs are a DROP in the bucket compared to how much money we spend on subsidizing the automobile.

Further what that article didn't point out was that 2006 had the highest public transit usage in 50 years and Light Rail Lead the way with the highest increase in usage.

Other details left out:

That property values along systems in Portland and Dallas have increased at a rate significantly higher than property not on the line. Who cares about increasing the tax base...

One side effect of lack of mass transit:

Every building built in the city is significantly more expensive to build and rent because of the automobile. An underground garage cost 50k PER SPOT, an above ground garge is 30k PER SPOT to build, think that makes all the condos so expensive, harder for new retail to rent in a new building because the rents are so high? Are the products sold at the stores in these new building more expensive? Yes Milwaukee's lack of good mass transit hurts our economy, hurts job growth, and hurts development.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 04:21 PM   #1890
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Oh yes! The religious debate of rail vs. highway continues.
Subsidies bad! What governmental function (police, fire, post office, sanitation) or piece of infrastructure
(sewer, streets, transportation) isn't subsidized by we the people?

Right and every 20 years (planned obsolescence) due to inferior materials
highways have to be resurfaced to make the concrete-asphalt contractors -lobbyists happy. Rail should still be the backbone of the economy, rail cars
tonnage capacity per car (500 tons) while a fully loaded semi truck burn more fuel do more dammage to the highways physically then passenger vehicles and can only carry (40 -50 tons.) Let's face it Truck drivers are accidents waiting happen as each freight company competes on who can move goods quicker and farther and cheaper, truck drivers rely on various stimulants to keep awake at the wheel. And finally, how about homeland security, it's much easier to keep track of a system freight cars across the U.S. then an individual fly-by-night, free lance truck driver.
We know we can't keep track of every single truck on the road look at the tragic result of the license for bribes scandal in Illinois with then Governor Ryan and how that greed caused the death of a priest and his family when a rusted truck axle abruptly flew into their passenger vehicle killing everyone.

Rail creates suburban density cores. Many immediate suburbs west of Chicago contain working class tract housing from the 1950s typically one storey ranch type structures with little property appreciation. Now thanks to developers in the last five years creating destination cores around the METRA stations, property values are booming. The cores typically consist of a 5-6 storey multiple building condo complex, a retail core with "Whole Foods,"
"Trader Joes" or "Borders" a "Starbucks" or other cafe, or "Panera Bread." Middle income workers tired of the commute have snapped up these ranch type houses in exchange for the serenity and convenience of a suburban retail hub around a commuter station.

Madison's mayor and Dance County Executive have agreed to pool their resources (region wide minor increase in the sales tax) to offset the start-up and maintenance costs of a commuter rail line their running from the eastern suburb of Sun Prairie to downtown Madison and then west to the suburb of Middleton. The commuter rail line has stops in several downtown Madison locations and makes use of existing infrastructure. Milwaukee
should follow this city-county template and shelve the whole trolley idea to get a starting point.

Last edited by historybuffer; July 5th, 2007 at 04:57 PM.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 04:35 PM   #1891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeuBrew View Post
Not to de-rail the political jibberjabber... but are any of the light rail proposals a multi-county affair, or are they concentrating on Milwaukee county itself? In my mind, any sort of rail system seems like it would actually benefit the suburbs more because of the increased accesibility of the city. In that sense, doesn't it tend to go against the New Urbanism approach?

If the proposal is just for intra-city travel, then I'm not sure why Mr. FranklinNow would care so much.

Totally lacking any research or stats on cost/benefit of such a proposal, I think a rail line mirroring I-94 westbound from Tosa down through the valley to downtown would seem like the most logical place to relieve congestion. You would hit many of the major attractions including Miller Park, State Fair, Summerfest, Downtown, etc.

Now, I totally understand that this would primarily benefit commuters and tourism/recreation - not eliminate too many current bus lines. I'm just not sure the volumes are sufficient on the buses currently to replace them with light rail anyway. That one corridor is really the one that I think could use an alternative mode of transport.
Light rail right now isn't exactly set in stone as the transit idea. It's still the KRM. And "Mr. FranklinNOW" cares (on both sides) because it's either wanting expansion in the future if it works, or it's the whole taxes taxes taxes approach. Remember, anything Milwaukee County does Milwaukee County pays - and that includes people all the way out here. So, yeah, you'll have the skyking's that will resort to 5th grade tactics and jump up and down to make a statement.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 06:02 PM   #1892
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more on the Brewery

Check this link out: http://zilcms.zilber.com/milwaukeeitc/index.htm
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Old July 5th, 2007, 06:12 PM   #1893
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Quote:
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Light rail right now isn't exactly set in stone as the transit idea. It's still the KRM. And "Mr. FranklinNOW" cares (on both sides) because it's either wanting expansion in the future if it works, or it's the whole taxes taxes taxes approach. Remember, anything Milwaukee County does Milwaukee County pays - and that includes people all the way out here. So, yeah, you'll have the skyking's that will resort to 5th grade tactics and jump up and down to make a statement.
Wow, if my tactics are 5th grade, yours must be absolutely infantile based on your history of foolish comments and rants. Truly, and not to be cutting Brew, but most of the time your comments don't make much sense. I know you mean well, but you're just not that relevant.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 06:20 PM   #1894
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Skyking2> Ummm please compare the dollars to subsidize highways/auto to mass transit. Even in that article the LA system in which costs overran tremndously, that was an entire system... How much is the Marquette interchange? How much is the proposed expansion to the border? How much is the propsed rebuilding of the Zoo? Mass transit costs are a DROP in the bucket compared to how much money we spend on subsidizing the automobile.

Further what that article didn't point out was that 2006 had the highest public transit usage in 50 years and Light Rail Lead the way with the highest increase in usage.

Other details left out:

That property values along systems in Portland and Dallas have increased at a rate significantly higher than property not on the line. Who cares about increasing the tax base...

One side effect of lack of mass transit:

Every building built in the city is significantly more expensive to build and rent because of the automobile. An underground garage cost 50k PER SPOT, an above ground garge is 30k PER SPOT to build, think that makes all the condos so expensive, harder for new retail to rent in a new building because the rents are so high? Are the products sold at the stores in these new building more expensive? Yes Milwaukee's lack of good mass transit hurts our economy, hurts job growth, and hurts development.
2per, you've got to be kidding if you're trying to make an argument based on comparing subsidies of highways vs mass transit. There is none. I'd like to see some form of mass transit beyond the bus system, but Milwaukee was not developed that way. And to suggest that the future of the area will suffer due to lack of mass transit is ludicrous. If just one of the supporters of light rail, or some form of expanded mass transit, can tell me WHO will use this, I'd like to hear it. IMO, the scant number of people who might ride the trolly or train does not come close to justifying the cost.

And, as for your "Milwaukee's lack of good mass transit hurts our economy, hurts job growth, and hurts development" comment, tell me how.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 07:25 PM   #1895
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skying> "2per, you've got to be kidding if you're trying to make an argument based on comparing subsidies of highways vs mass transit. There is none." Do some research.. We subisidize highways and the automobile at an amazing rate. (ps not just in the gas tax, but in your property taxes too)

Um Milwaukee was in fact built on rail.. hell many of our older burbs were built on rail. Or look at the burbs in Chicago... Where is Glenviews downtown for example? oh gee just off the train station...

And, as for your "Milwaukee's lack of good mass transit hurts our economy, hurts job growth, and hurts development" comment, tell me how.

I did, read the post. But I'll try again here:

Everything we build or buy is more expensive because of the amount of parking required due to our lack of transit. I believe it was Barry Mandel (but I would have to search the video for which developers it was for sure) who said during the Connecter study that they would build less parking in their developments if the Connector went through.. Less parking == more affordable rent and/or purchasing power because parking is terribly expensive 30k per garage spot 50k per underground spot. So reduce this cost and gee more development, more affordable rents, and more business.

Further who would ride it... well for a real light rail system clearly inner city folks could use it to fill the 20,000 "low skill" jobs that go unfilled everyday in suburban Milwaukee. (research by UWM Michael Levine). As far as the streetcars? me for one.

Last edited by Twoaday; July 5th, 2007 at 07:28 PM. Reason: more answers
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Old July 5th, 2007, 07:32 PM   #1896
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If just one of the supporters of light rail, or some form of expanded mass transit, can tell me WHO will use this, I'd like to hear it.
I'd love to have the ability to hop on a train and go to the western suburbs to visit my family. A train that takes me to Chicago (cheaper than Amtrak) would be even better. For someone who's gone more than five years without a car, public transportation is rather important to me.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 07:35 PM   #1897
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Eww... "Milwaukee International Trade Center (MITC) is a spectacular 185,000 sq. ft. building" Umm no. A hideous building at best. It's worse than the post office.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 07:46 PM   #1898
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MM> Yea that building isn't so hot now is it! But the concept of attracting international trade and immigrants wishing to start new business is very appealing.

PS Mark your photos are amazing.

Last edited by Twoaday; July 5th, 2007 at 08:00 PM. Reason: to be nice
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Old July 5th, 2007, 08:00 PM   #1899
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MM> Yea that building isn't so hot now is it! But the concept of attracting international trade and immigrants wishing to start new business is very appealing.
Oh very much so. The idea behind it is excellent... from an architectural/development standpoint though, not so much. I wonder why this sort of development wouldn't be bundled with the Milwaukee World Trade Center.
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Old July 5th, 2007, 08:24 PM   #1900
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;0-=-

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