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Old February 6th, 2008, 02:14 AM   #221
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freaking thing looks like a space shuttle. So if it does go into service, we can just call it the shuttle.

all in all, formost customer for this train will be the Chinese and their nation wide 300km/h network which is being built. Bombardier even designed their own 300 km/h train for the Chinese market (ofcourse they didn't put it that way, but the Chinese are the only customers atm).

btw, this train doesn't look that bad, a new paint job would do wonders.
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Old February 6th, 2008, 02:25 AM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
While that is an equation, it's not the equation that describes air friction with the front of the train. That equation (for drag) is:



As you can see, it's second order - it scales exponentially as v increases.

Friction doesn't even increase as v increases! Forces due to friction with the trackway remain generally the same (although the normal force with the track increases linearly with v on the leading edge of the train), and therefore as velocity increases, drag becomes by far the largest component of resistance to movement.

When you're talking about 300-400kph, the limitations are systemic (yes, the rails take some damage if they're not designed for it) but mostly energy-related, and for Japan much of the resistance (hah) to making faster trains is just due to tunnel boom.
And drag is converted into mass into the original equation I proposed.
So mass is combined amount of weight of the train set and drag converted into weight.
E by the way equates to amount of energy drawn in as electricity(Not as potential energy stored since drag does not increase as actual mass)
The more juice you put in the more potential energy you can gain, up to the point where the motor output reaches it's ceiling.

One more thing, there is a limit in speed where traction can be applied, beyond that speed wheel-rail traction becomes zero and the wheel starts to spin idle against the rail which is the potential speed limit for conventional rail systems.
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Last edited by Tri-ring; February 6th, 2008 at 02:48 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old February 6th, 2008, 03:34 AM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
Take a look at this ugly mother****er!

Its actually a seperate (one way) locomotive, and its just as fast as the new AGV and ICE 3.

I wonder how fast it can go without the carriages.

With carriages it arrives at 362 km/h-226 Mph in the new HSL Madrid-Barcelona

Without...I can't imagine...
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Old February 6th, 2008, 03:40 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougfr69 View Post
yes but the first advantage is that the new AGV is 15 to 30 % more economic than the trains of the current generation
Yes, but it's more Ugly...
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Old February 6th, 2008, 11:32 AM   #225
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Some pics:















Source: http://www.elmundo.es/albumes/2008/0...ozy/index.html

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Old February 6th, 2008, 01:00 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Avientu View Post
Some pics:






Looks very "Gerry Anderson"ish.
Anybody remember UFO?
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Old February 6th, 2008, 01:42 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
In which what does it have to do with what? (except maybe with PRIDE?)
The reality was the Japanese engineers without access with the latest metallurgy technology did not think they were able to create a motor strong enough to reach their target speed so they took a different approach placing a motor in each cart thus creating the distributed power system.
The French engineers on the otherhand with advancement made during the 20 odd years were able to acquire newly developed material strong enough to go with the conventional locomotive approach, thus creating the TGV.
Japan really did not feel the need to innovate the system until the TGV came into service thus it took time to counter the challenge with the 300 series in the end of the 80's, after that it was tic vs tac.
Is this going to be a "mine is longer than yours" contest?

Anyway, back to the topic. I think the AGV is a great step forward for the French high speed system. Together with its clever axis arrangement (like in the TGV's) it probably will be superior to the ICE3.

The interior in the picture above looks also ways nicer than what we know from the TGV. But one would need to see more interior pics from all classes to make a judgement.
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Old February 6th, 2008, 04:02 PM   #228
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The video






Last edited by Railfan; February 6th, 2008 at 04:13 PM.
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Old February 6th, 2008, 05:36 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Is this going to be a "mine is longer than yours" contest?

Anyway, back to the topic. I think the AGV is a great step forward for the French high speed system. Together with its clever axis arrangement (like in the TGV's) it probably will be superior to the ICE3.

The interior in the picture above looks also ways nicer than what we know from the TGV. But one would need to see more interior pics from all classes to make a judgement.
International competition will always be a "Mine is longer than yours" contest and since you are comparing it with the ICE3 you're doing your own.
It's good since the market will be able to select from a superior product while comparing prices.
It's also good for the environment since one of the critical factors for these trains is energy efficiency leading to a smaller CO2 foot print.

Now only if the Americans will follow the example.
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Old February 6th, 2008, 06:34 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
International competition will always be a "Mine is longer than yours" contest and since you are comparing it with the ICE3 you're doing your own.
It's good since the market will be able to select from a superior product while comparing prices.
It's also good for the environment since one of the critical factors for these trains is energy efficiency leading to a smaller CO2 foot print.

Now only if the Americans will follow the example.
I was not talking so much about competition but about the style of comparing things. ICE3 as well as the TGV are both European, neither of them is Austrian, so I have no problem to switch sides if one is better than the other. But if both do a good job there is no reason to choose sides.
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Old February 6th, 2008, 10:01 PM   #231
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The speed is certainly not impressive for a new train, there are already trains running at that speed....
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Old February 7th, 2008, 03:26 AM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avientu View Post
The speed is certainly not impressive for a new train, there are already trains running at that speed....
There's none I'm afraid.
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Old February 7th, 2008, 03:42 AM   #233
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beautiful interiors design...l love the soft light as well...
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Old February 7th, 2008, 03:47 AM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avientu View Post
The speed is certainly not impressive for a new train, there are already trains running at that speed....
The new name of the game is "which consumes less energy".

The Concord went out the way of the dodos because of noise pollution and more importantly small passanger capacity combined with horrid milage to the gallon making it impractical as a commercial airplane.

Same with trains especially when price of energy is ever rising and demand to reduce Carbon emissions is becoming a world priority.

The latest Shinkansen N700 series lowered it's energy consumpution by 32% compared to the first 0 series with a speed differencial of 50Km/h.
0 series 100% (at 220Km/h)
300 series 91% (at 270Km/h)
700 series 84% (same as above)
N700 series 68% (same as above)

This all became possible due to introduction of stronger-lighter material, aerodynamic design and regenerative brakes.
Faster acceleration is also a factor since more energy is consumed through acceleration than maintenance of speed so faster you achive top speed lower the overall consumption energy it will be.
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Old February 7th, 2008, 05:05 AM   #235
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wow the french has out done the United States again in Railway Technology i am pretty sure most countries will have this running on Railways today even japan i think may think of purchasing this

i hope the United States will change its status quote again to a better one trust me on that
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Old February 7th, 2008, 05:49 AM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AR1182 View Post
There's none I'm afraid.
Yes, the fastest passenger conventional rail service in the world is TGV-Est, at 320kph. FasTECH 360 will operate in Japan at 360kph, but not for some time yet.

The only thing faster for passengers is the Shanghai maglev, but that has two stops - and it's a bumpy ride.
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Old February 7th, 2008, 05:51 AM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
The new name of the game is "which consumes less energy".

The Concord went out the way of the dodos because of noise pollution and more importantly small passanger capacity combined with horrid milage to the gallon making it impractical as a commercial airplane.

Same with trains especially when price of energy is ever rising and demand to reduce Carbon emissions is becoming a world priority.

The latest Shinkansen N700 series lowered it's energy consumpution by 32% compared to the first 0 series with a speed differencial of 50Km/h.
0 series 100% (at 220Km/h)
300 series 91% (at 270Km/h)
700 series 84% (same as above)
N700 series 68% (same as above)

This all became possible due to introduction of stronger-lighter material, aerodynamic design and regenerative brakes.
Faster acceleration is also a factor since more energy is consumed through acceleration than maintenance of speed so faster you achive top speed lower the overall consumption energy it will be.
So, I've been on Hikari Rail Star 700s that say 285km/h... and I thought the N700 did 300km/h on the Sanyo part of the trip.
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Old February 7th, 2008, 05:52 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Songoten2554 View Post
wow the french has out done the United States again in Railway Technology i am pretty sure most countries will have this running on Railways today even japan i think may think of purchasing this
Well that will be interesting as long as France buys Japanese Shinkansen in return.

I wish they create a common comparison criteria for HSRs like automobiles so everyone can compare them in a unified way.
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Old February 7th, 2008, 05:58 AM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
So, I've been on Hikari Rail Star 700s that say 285km/h... and I thought the N700 did 300km/h on the Sanyo part of the trip.
I pulled the figures out from JR Tokai environmental booklet, and those were the figures they had.(They also had comparative figures for 220Km/h for all models which I omitted) I believe they wanted to create a common figure through out models.
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Old February 7th, 2008, 06:47 AM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
In which what does it have to do with what? (except maybe with PRIDE?)
The reality was the Japanese engineers without access with the latest metallurgy technology did not think they were able to create a motor strong enough to reach their target speed so they took a different approach placing a motor in each cart thus creating the distributed power system.
The French engineers on the otherhand with advancement made during the 20 odd years were able to acquire newly developed material strong enough to go with the conventional locomotive approach, thus creating the TGV.
Japan really did not feel the need to innovate the system until the TGV came into service thus it took time to counter the challenge with the 300 series in the end of the 80's, after that it was tic vs tac.
Waht are you talking about ???

European railways were already running 200kmh trains by the time Japanese build the Tokkaido ... faster trains were in early development or in prototipe usage (one unit class 9291 was in use in 1963 and geared for 250km/h for example) ... but as soon as the 30's there were already regular fast 160kmh trains everywhere in europe (and USA) ... and by 1963 they regularly run at 200km/h

The 1964 "0 series" are 220km/h trains ... wich in itself is a great achievement ... specialy since contrarely to french/german prototipe high speed locomotives ... the japanese produced mre than 3000 veichles (some full 180 sets ???).

The 1980 "100 series" are also 220km/h trains ... not so great

Only "200 series" (1980 and 240km/h) and followers were faster ... by that time 220kmh was a "slow" speed ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dougfr69 View Post
We are agree. So at the beginning of the 80s, a motrice engine was more suited to approach a 300km/h wanted by the railroad company SNCF.
variable system which corresponds to the objectives of each epoch.
And Alstom really did not feel the need to innovate the system until today.
Actualy the TGV were "distributed power" from the start ...

The TGV Sud Est had 2 locomotives atached at each end and the 1st bogie at each side ws also motorized ... only the intermediate bogies (who suported 2 coaches each) were not motorized ... a 1/2 ratio ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by xote View Post
FUGLY. Looks as if they tapped into the nightmares of a drunk Japanese shinkansen designer.
Actualy the AGV is a new adition to Alstom pallete of HST ...

TGV "classic"
TGV "duplex"
Pendulino
AGV

and that "face" looks "oh so" Italian HST ... the initial prototipes were even uglier ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallaroo View Post
Does Alstom even exist anymore - thought Bombardier bought them?

I dont understand why the entrance doors in TGV trains and this are so narrow. Why are they not made with broad double doors in the middle of each car?
Bombardier is a small fry in Rail business ...

And are you looking at the 1st door on the set ??? thats the engineer access to the cabin ... the HST doors are usualy quite large (almost 1m wide?) and are at the extremities of the coas (they are actualy small coaches wth only 16/18m each and 1 door)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dougfr69 View Post
yes but the first advantage is that the new AGV is 15 to 30 % more economic than the trains of the current generation
Says who ??? PR talk ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan1113 View Post
Yikes, that one is hideous! What were they thinking...
They were thinking of REDUCING air drag ... you can't see them but the nose even has air intakes to "glue" the train to the rails ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avientu View Post
The speed is certainly not impressive for a new train, there are already trains running at that speed....
A "comercialy cheap" train at 360kmh in service ?? where ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Songoten2554 View Post
wow the french has out done the United States again in Railway Technology i am pretty sure most countries will have this running on Railways today even japan i think may think of purchasing this

i hope the United States will change its status quote again to a better one trust me on that
Are the USA even in the High Speed Race ??? Its a fly anywhere country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanBen View Post
So, I've been on Hikari Rail Star 700s that say 285km/h... and I thought the N700 did 300km/h on the Sanyo part of the trip.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
I pulled the figures out from JR Tokai environmental booklet, and those were the figures they had.(They also had comparative figures for 220Km/h for all models which I omitted) I believe they wanted to create a common figure through out models.
Tokkaido is limited to 270kmh ...
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