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Old May 13th, 2010, 08:05 PM   #421
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What a huge difference with the tgv.
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Old May 14th, 2010, 12:12 AM   #422
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It is based on biomimmetics of foot and snake at the same time. In both cases, it will bite asses
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Old May 16th, 2010, 06:13 AM   #423
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Quote:
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I think Americans are working on the AGV. Look at all the duct tape!
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Old May 16th, 2010, 09:37 AM   #424
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Old May 16th, 2010, 09:57 AM   #425
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[Italo Alstom train enters Tiburtina station]
Fantastic! This will mark a new era of fake competition on the Italian market! First were the telecom market cartel, the gasoline market cartel, the tv market cartel etc.. Now it's the railway's turn!
The train itself is nice, don't know about its performances and reliability, hope it does not break down as often as those currently owned by the main operator, last winter it was a nightmare and a ridiculous débacle.
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Old May 16th, 2010, 08:02 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Fantastic! This will mark a new era of fake competition on the Italian market! First were the telecom market cartel, the gasoline market cartel, the tv market cartel etc.. Now it's the railway's turn!
The train itself is nice, don't know about its performances and reliability, hope it does not break down as often as those currently owned by the main operator, last winter it was a nightmare and a ridiculous débacle.
Fake competition on the Italian market? Why? What do you mean?
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Old May 17th, 2010, 12:01 AM   #427
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Fake competition on the Italian market? Why? What do you mean?
In Italy, because of a corrupt political class and an entrepreneurial class that's up to par with it, all the prices are inflated and have been so for a long time. I guess you know what a cartel is. The "Prices authority" (an institution whose power is basically nil), in the last 10 years, has time and again fined the major gas distributor firms, and the major telecom operators. Also some of Berlusconi's TV channels have been declared illegal by Italian courts because of "squatting" frequencies belonging to others. But this to no avail, and a monopoly-duopoly in effect exists in the Italian TV market. Since all this happens with the undeclared support of the political parties - all of which are constantly looking for "support" by Confindustria and regularly attend the industrials' meetings, never mind Berlusconi who's one of them - such fines have constantly been of ridiculously low entity. As a result, in Italy today the prices of most commodities are much higher than they should. In particular, telecom and gas prices are the highest in the EC. And railway ticket prices have grown 15 percent in the last 6 months, I believe they got to the highest level in Europe too. Surely the ratio quality of service-price is worst in western Europe, if you ask me.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 07:14 AM   #428
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When are these trains going to be in service? I will be in France and Italy in July, any chance I can use them?
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Old May 17th, 2010, 11:41 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
In Italy, because of a corrupt political class and an entrepreneurial class that's up to par with it, all the prices are inflated and have been so for a long time.
I don't have the impression that train ticket prices are inflated. Rather the contrary. Now if they'd only "inflate" the cleanliness and punctuality a bit...
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Old May 17th, 2010, 01:15 PM   #430
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I don't have the impression that train ticket prices are inflated. Rather the contrary. Now if they'd only "inflate" the cleanliness and punctuality a bit...
Are you Italian? Are you a frequent Trenitalia traveller? How often do you take inter-regional Italian trains? Have you compared prices from two years ago with the current ones? Can you compare the level of the service of ten years ago with today's? Do you have an idea of the cuts in personnel happened in the last ten years? And the cuts in the salaries? Are you informed of the amount of public subsidy to the supposedly privatized Trenitalia? Anyway you don't seem to have read the last two sentences of my post. In short, I believe the new Alstom Italo will be used as the ultimate smoke and mirrors.
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Old May 17th, 2010, 04:47 PM   #431
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When are these trains going to be in service? I will be in France and Italy in July, any chance I can use them?
No, sorry... I think you have to wait 2011/2012
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Old May 17th, 2010, 04:51 PM   #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Are you Italian? Are you a frequent Trenitalia traveller? How often do you take inter-regional Italian trains? Have you compared prices from two years ago with the current ones? Can you compare the level of the service of ten years ago with today's? Do you have an idea of the cuts in personnel happened in the last ten years? And the cuts in the salaries? Are you informed of the amount of public subsidy to the supposedly privatized Trenitalia? Anyway you don't seem to have read the last two sentences of my post. In short, I believe the new Alstom Italo will be used as the ultimate smoke and mirrors.
I think your vision is a 'bit' pessimistic
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Old May 18th, 2010, 12:57 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
I think your vision is a 'bit' pessimistic
I don't think you can prove me wrong on any single point I made, anyway your opinion is a large bit biased since you act as a cheerleader of anything Italian-made in every thread and are a contributor of a site on the Milan Expo paid for by local institutions such as the Lombardy region, and by the Italian Ministry of finances, as per your signature.
Like half an hour after my previous post the news came out that the Italian Prices Authority has launched an inquiry on the prices of car insurances in Italy, suspecting the umpteenth cartel has been set up:
http://www.repubblica.it/motori/2010..._auto-4133345/
So I'm looking forward to the fine they will inflict on the companies... I'm expecting at least 200 euro
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Last edited by Peloso; May 18th, 2010 at 01:02 AM.
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Old May 18th, 2010, 03:13 PM   #434
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I am not an specialist in the matter....

if this AGV is so good I wonder why SNCF haven´t purchased a single unit yet...

oh! wait, they have! cause NTV Italo is owned by this french company in a 20% stake...

Now what I wonder why a French public company (feeded with public funds) is able to compete as a private company in Italy, which sadly has its own public company weakened after years of bad management and haven´t been allowed to enter into the french market by SNCF.
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Old May 18th, 2010, 05:05 PM   #435
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I am not an specialist in the matter....

if this AGV is so good I wonder why SNCF haven´t purchased a single unit yet...
They eventually might. The TGV's SNCF is currently buying are all double deckers, and part of a delivery contract that is older than the AGV.
Once SNCF calls for a Tender again Alsthom will offer the AGV.
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Old May 18th, 2010, 05:09 PM   #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peloso View Post
Are you Italian? Are you a frequent Trenitalia traveller? How often do you take inter-regional Italian trains? Have you compared prices from two years ago with the current ones?
I'm not Italian. But I do travel in Italy occasionally. I was there last fall, and I can only tell that a) prices for train tickets did not appear "inflated" to me. And b) service was way below what I expect from a railway. The train I took from Napoli to Siracusa looked as it hadn't been cleaned yet this century.
Doing better than Trenitalia shouldn't be hard for NTV.
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Old May 18th, 2010, 05:35 PM   #437
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I don't think you can prove me wrong on any single point I made
Actually you have to prove it right.
You said there will be a cartel... based on?
Your personal expectations

Ok, but that IS a pessimistic view.
Realistic? Maybe: time will tell
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Old May 18th, 2010, 05:46 PM   #438
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They eventually might. The TGV's SNCF is currently buying are all double deckers, and part of a delivery contract that is older than the AGV.
Once SNCF calls for a Tender again Alsthom will offer the AGV.
Infact the difference with NTV is that this one has to buy new trains to have its own 'fleet' being a new company, while SNCF has trains and contracts and could buy new AGVs only if they nneed more trains or have to replace the old ones.
For istance even Trenitalia wants to replace its ETR500 trains they haven't decided yet, and they don't need to hurry up as NTV as they got HS trains
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Old May 19th, 2010, 05:26 AM   #439
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Originally Posted by GENIUS LOCI View Post
Actually you have to prove it right.
You said there will be a cartel... based on?
Your personal expectations

Ok, but that IS a pessimistic view.
Realistic? Maybe: time will tell
Forumers are not in Italy, so I can dupe them into thinking the market in Italy is like everywhere else. Yes I am very smart. A GENIUS indeed (all capitals). If you haven't read a newspaper in the last 10 years then I can excuse not knowing all of Italy is a cartel. Besides, proof of what I said can be easily found by anyone using the italian keywords "pendolari protesta" (i.e. commuters protest (for the pitiful condition of local trains)), "aiuti stato Trenitalia" (state subsidy Trenitalia) "sicurezza problemi Trenitalia" (safety etc.) "zecche trenitalia" (ticks in Trenitalia trains) "tagli personale Trenitalia" (cuts in Trenitalia personnel). These are things that any, and I mean any, Trenitalia customer knows very well. There have been countless features on these topics on every magazine, TV specials have been made... as for the cartels, EU authority has pointed out the abnormally high prices in the Italian telecom market, gas companies have been fined multiple times etc.. BTW, I'm starting to think the (Ministry funded) GENIUS's posts have a triggering effect, two hours after his previous post this piece of news came out about a new Antitrust inquiry against Telecom Italy:
http://www.repubblica.it/economia/20...renza-4164092/
Back on topic: why I believe the new Alstom Italo will be used as smoke and mirrors? First and foremost, because NTV, the buyer of the train, is bound to use the existing railway network, owned by RFI - Rete Ferroviaria Italiana SPA - that is, a joint stock company that was separated from Ferrovie dello Stato SPA, formerly the sole keeper of the lines and trains, nine years ago, along with Trenitalia (now the operator of the trains). Both companies are 100 percent owned by Ferrovie dello Stato SPA (I know, it's funny but then it's Italy). Less than two years ago, guess what, the Authority for the market competition already launched an inquiry against Trenitalia pointing to a "special relationship" between Trenitalia and RFI, and both of the companies had to provide proof of their "future commitment" to avoid suspect behaviors in the future, so as to avoid sanctions:
http://www.agcm.it/agcm_ITA/RELAZ/RE...f?OpenDocument
So there is the serious risk (being in Italy, this is a certainty) that the new operator NTV will have to behave in an "amicable" way to be able to operate smoothly on the Italian network (on a side note, something very similar has happened with Telecom landlines since their supposed opening to new operators, Telecom was repeatedly accused by the Authority of illegally putting obstacles but no serious sanction was inflicted on it).
Add to this that the owner of NTV is not an unknown maverick, he's Luca di Montezemolo, former Italian Industrial Confederation president, one who enjoys special relationships not only in the industrial world, but in the political arena as well, rumoured to be the next candidate for prime minister, where he's sure to get the support of a good share of the chambers. The government is who appoints RFI administrator. Is there anyone willing to claim there will be "competition" on the railway market who's not somehow affiliated with the powers that be? I don't think so.
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Old May 19th, 2010, 06:41 AM   #440
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I don't like it, the current TGV looks very 'french', and the new AGV doesn't, it looks cheap, and I don't think it would be a good design for french railways, since they always seem to be aesthetically pleasing, even to an American. Personally, the Siemens Velaro looks better than the AGV, but the Velaro doesn't look that bad.
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