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Old June 2nd, 2010, 05:25 PM   #461
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 09:32 PM   #462
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In the top class, so little seats; how expensive would be these seats?
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 11:50 PM   #463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten Otto View Post
You might give a monkey a golden ring,
But it will remain to be an ugly thing.

Or,

You can putt lipstick on a pig,
Tis still pig.
right on.
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Old June 2nd, 2010, 11:53 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
The curvature on the front is for aesthetic purpose nothing more.
No high speed train has curvatures for purely aesthetic purposes.

Besides, AGV is ugly as hell, the only thing that justifies it in my eyes would be its possible aerodynamic properties.
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Old June 3rd, 2010, 02:18 AM   #465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
No high speed train has curvatures for purely aesthetic purposes.
If aerodynamics is the only ruling principle in design then all fast moving objects would look the same, an egg.
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Old June 3rd, 2010, 02:29 AM   #466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
If aerodynamics is the only ruling principle in design then all fast moving objects would look the same, an egg.
please learn to read. I said:

Quote:
No high speed train has curvatures for purely aesthetic purposes.
which was aimed at what you originally said:

Quote:
The curvature on the front is for aesthetic purpose nothing more.
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Old June 3rd, 2010, 11:55 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by Railfan View Post
This video - around 1:36 - shows why the AGV has a cheap look. The construction of the nose is very crude: they basically glue extensions of the two sides of the car with a top section. And this is direct visible in the final product.

By contrast, both Japanese Shinkansen and German Velaro have a nose structured by a frame of a single piece, which is more difficult to make as well as more aesthetically pleasing.
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Old June 4th, 2010, 04:24 AM   #468
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According to the information provided by Alstom the NGV design was actually dictated by aredynamics including the details as wave shaped deflectors. Its design is optimized for the operation at 360 km per hour and Alstom claims AGV to produce at this speed the same amount of noise as competitive designs at 300kmh. Originally Alstom was experimenting with more streamlined design but it proved to be less efficient and more noisy.
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Old June 4th, 2010, 04:34 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by eminencia View Post
According to the information provided by Alstom the NGV design was actually dictated by aredynamics including the details as wave shaped deflectors. Its design is optimized for the operation at 360 km per hour and Alstom claims AGV to produce at this speed the same amount of noise as competitive designs at 300kmh. Originally Alstom was experimenting with more streamlined design but it proved to be less efficient and more noisy.
If this is completely true then they would have covered the boogies since a vortex will develop around the wheels.
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Old June 4th, 2010, 10:33 AM   #470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
The construction of the nose is very crude: they basically glue extensions of the two sides of the car with a top section. And this is direct visible in the final product.
I watched the video but I didn't see the glue. Maybe you wanted to say the side are attached together by a steel frame, but certainly not by glue.

+ you keep on saying a single component system is better than one with several moving parts, but I fail to see how and I don't agree. Having several distinct components give a system a stronger resiliency if you set them in a way where you can improve redundancy. This is actually one of the advantage of the electrical propulsion used on the AGV or Velaro (or like on these tiny Nikko radiocommanded toy cars we all had as kids) compared to the mechanical distribution (on TGVs or older ICEs), it adds more components (since you have a much larger amount of engines distributed below the carriages) but if one engine fails it won't be as bad as on a mechanicaly distributed propulsion.
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Old June 4th, 2010, 10:43 AM   #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
This video - around 1:36 - shows why the AGV has a cheap look. The construction of the nose is very crude: they basically glue extensions of the two sides of the car with a top section. And this is direct visible in the final product.
They're building the nose of the train the same way everyone does in Europe: You have an impact absorbing frame, designed in such a way that it leaves a survival space for the driver when collapses in a collision. Around that some fairing is applied for aesthetic/aerodynamic purposes.
That's the way trains are build nowadays. Some manufacturers build the nose fairing in one piece, others don't but it's a choice that probably has a reason.


Quote:
By contrast, both Japanese Shinkansen and German Velaro have a nose structured by a frame of a single piece, which is more difficult to make as well as more aesthetically pleasing.
More dificult to make also means "more expensive". That is usually not a desirable feature.
Building trains "cheaply", as long as they do the job is actually a good thing.
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Old June 4th, 2010, 10:03 PM   #472
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I watched the video but I didn't see the glue. Maybe you wanted to say the side are attached together by a steel frame, but certainly not by glue.
you are right, I was speaking somewhat loosely. But the main point I was making is that the nose is not made out of a single-piece frame.

Also, I don't think the comparison with distributed electric motors is a good one: the point of the distributed motor design is not to make one motor out of many parts, the point is rather to substitute many smaller motors for one single motor. That is why if one small motor breaks down, the other motors can still function: they are different motors, rather than different parts of the same motor.

By contrast, if you make a nose out of many different pieces, you are still making one nose. So if one piece of the nose breaks, the entire nose has to be repaired.

It's just not a valid comparison.


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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Some manufacturers build the nose fairing in one piece, others don't but it's a choice that probably has a reason.
I am sure they do have their reasons. But I think single-piece frame has the advantage of (a) being less likely to break, because there are less joints, and (b) being more flexible in form, more easily adaptable to various aerodynamic requirements.


Quote:
More dificult to make also means "more expensive". That is usually not a desirable feature.
Building trains "cheaply", as long as they do the job is actually a good thing.
That is a fair point.
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Old June 5th, 2010, 12:20 PM   #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
By contrast, if you make a nose out of many different pieces, you are still making one nose. So if one piece of the nose breaks, the entire nose has to be repaired.
No, the general idea is that the nose consists of a frame, with a fairing attached to it that is expendable. Low impact collisions will not cause a deforming of the frame, they might break some of the nose panels, but they are quickly replaced.
The SBB's ICN sets have a nose that is faired with several fibre glass panels that are just bolted on the frame. I quite regularly encounter sets where it's obvious they've replaced some of these panels.
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Old June 5th, 2010, 10:38 PM   #474
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
No, the general idea is that the nose consists of a frame, with a fairing attached to it that is expendable. Low impact collisions will not cause a deforming of the frame, .
But the point I was making was that the frame of AGV's nose doesn't seem to be a single-piece (watch the part of the video I referred to). And that, although cheaper to make, increases general wear and tear.

Yes, I wrote "if you make a nose out of many different pieces...", but the context makes it clear that I was referring to the frame of the nose. For that is the contrast between AGV on the one hand and Shinkansen/Velaro on the other hand. I don't care about fairing and what not. Just the nose-frame.
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Old June 6th, 2010, 02:41 PM   #475
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The only way to know if a single piece frame is better or not would be a live crash test.
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Old June 6th, 2010, 07:14 PM   #476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
But the point I was making was that the frame of AGV's nose doesn't seem to be a single-piece (watch the part of the video I referred to). And that, although cheaper to make, increases general wear and tear.

Yes, I wrote "if you make a nose out of many different pieces...", but the context makes it clear that I was referring to the frame of the nose. For that is the contrast between AGV on the one hand and Shinkansen/Velaro on the other hand. I don't care about fairing and what not. Just the nose-frame.
I don't follow you. If you'd take away the nos shell of a Velaro you'd find a similarly constructed frame underneath it too.

Trains are now most commonly constructed using aluminium extrusions. That means that every part will be composed of many pieces. Glueing aluminium btw is quite common nowadays, and it is not sign of shoddy construction. Rather the contrary, as it leads to a stronger join than welding.
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Old June 6th, 2010, 10:49 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I don't follow you. If you'd take away the nos shell of a Velaro you'd find a similarly constructed frame underneath it too.
That's definitely not the case. I don't have a picture of the Velaro nose-frame at hand, but take a look at the following video about the construction of Shinkansen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZNFs...eature=related

You see clearly that there is a single-piece frame underlying the various aluminum pieces the workers later attach to it. compare that with the AGV video, where the nose (frame) is essentially formed by connecting the flat extensions of the two sides of the train cabin, with a top piece. I am sorry, but that definitely looks and feels cheap. And not only cheap, this method of construction gives you a lot less flexibility for precise plastic shaping and fine-tuning of the aerodynamic properties of the nose. And I suspect, though I agree I don't have hard data on this, that it is also easier to break.
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Old June 7th, 2010, 06:59 AM   #478
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AGV, Performance et modularitéLe défi


A l’heure où le transport aérien est pénalisé par l’allongement du temps d’embarquement et par l’encombrement des aéroports, l’enjeu pour la très grande vitesse ferroviaire consiste désormais à atteindre les 360 Km/h en vitesse commerciale pour franchir le seuil des 1000 km en 3h et accroître encore l’attrait du train sur les autres modes de transport.

Parallèlement, les tensions sur le coût de l’énergie amènent les opérateurs ferroviaires à exiger des performances exceptionnelles en terme de coût à la place. Le rapport entre capacité du train et consommation d’énergie est donc devenu plus que déterminant.

Pour répondre à ces nouvelles exigences, Alstom a développé la toute dernière génération de train à très grande vitesse, l’AGV (Automotrice Grande Vitesse).

Le concept

Conçu pour circuler à 360 km/h, l’AGV, est le premier train au monde à concilier une architecture articulée et une motorisation répartie. Le principe de la rame articulée repose sur la disposition des bogies entre les voitures. Cette technique, qui a fait le succès des trains Alstom depuis 25 ans, élimine une grande partie des vibrations et du bruit de roulement à bord, amortit les mouvements entre les voitures, optimise l’aérodynamisme, garantit une sécurité maximale et de plus réduit les coûts de maintenance de l’ordre de 30%. Le principe de la motorisation répartie sur toute la rame accroît, quant à lui, la capacité à bord de 20%.

L’alliance d’une architecture articulée, de matériaux composites et de systèmes de traction plus perfectionnés a permis d’alléger la masse de l’AGV d’environ 50 tonnes par rapport aux trains concurrents. Ainsi, l’AGV est particulièrement performant d’un point de vue environnemental avec une consommation d’énergie réduite de 15%.

La motorisation répartie présente également l’avantage de la modularité en terme de nombre de voitures. Ainsi à partir d’une gamme AGV allant de 7 à 14 voitures, chaque opérateur peut composer une flotte en parfaite adéquation avec ses besoins capacitaires.

Chiffres clés


Modularité : 7 à 14 voitures (130 à 250 m)
Places assises : 250 à 650
Masse : 270 à 510 tonnes
Puissance : 6000 à 12000 kW ( 22 kW/t)
Équipements de traction : Quadri tension 25 kV 50 Hz / 15 kV 16,7 Hz / 3 kVcc / 1,5 kVcc, convertisseurs de traction IGBT à refroidissement à eau, moteurs à aimants permanents

http://www.transport.alstom.com/home...ical/products/
Quote:
AGV : Performance and modularityThe challenge


Air transport currently presents travellers with numerous problems, from extended check-in times to overcrowded airports. The challenge for very high speed rail travel is to offer a commercial service speed of 360 km/h, passing the threshold of 1,000 km in three hours to further increase the appeal of train travel over other modes of transport.

Pressure on energy costs have also led rail operators to demand exceptional cost performance. The ratio between train capacity and energy consumption has, as a result, become a decisive market factor.

Alstom has developed a new generation of very high speed trains, AGV (Automotrice Grande Vitesse), to meet these new requirements

The concept

Designed to travel at 360 km/h, the AGV is the first train in the world to combine articulated architecture with distributed power. The principle of the articulated train set is based on a design that places bogies between the cars. This technique, which has ensured Alstom’s success for 25 years, eliminates much of the vibration and rolling noise on board, cushions movement between cars, optimizes aerodynamic performance, guarantees maximum security, and reduces maintenance costs by 30%. The distributed power principle spread along the train increases on-board capacity by 20%.

The combination of articulated architecture, composite materials, and improved traction systems have made it possible to reduce the mass of the AGV by 70 tonnes compared to competitors’ trains. The AGV is therefore particularly efficient from an environmental point of view, consuming 15% less energy.

Distributed power also offers the advantage of modularity in relation to car numbers. Based on an AGV range comprising between 7 and 14 cars, each operator can built up a fleet to match their capacity requirements.


Key figures


Modular design: 7 to 14 cars (130 to 250 m)
Seats: 250 to 650
Mass: 270 to 510 tonnes
Power: 6,000 to 12,000 kW (22 kW/t)
Traction equipment : Quadri-voltage 25 kV 50 Hz / 15 kV 16.7 Hz / 3 kVdc / 1.5 kVdc, water-cooled IGBT traction converters, permanent magnet motors

http://www.transport.alstom.com/home...ical/products/
[dailymotion]x4a1l1[/dailymotion]

AGV - Customize your Interiors - Meconopsis / Alstom
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Old June 7th, 2010, 07:35 AM   #479
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Nice promotional material. Though risking being pedantic, once again I have to take issue with Alstom's marketing claim of this:

Quote:
...the AGV is the first train in the world to combine articulated architecture with distributed power
It should read "the AGV is the first high speed train in the world to combine articulated architecture with distributed power"- the concept, contrary to what Alstom's marketing department may think, is hardly new or innovative. The Odakyu Railway in Japan had such a trainset in operation back in 1957, and though narrow gauge, it did break the then world speed record for narrow gauge trains, running at 145km/h. Data from this WR run was used to help develop the first true HSR trainset (then, as now, using distributed power), the Shinkansen 0 series. There may be other examples from other nations also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odaky%C5%AB_3000_series_SE


source: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%...88%9D%E4%BB%A3)

articulated motor bogie:

source: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%...Truck-KD17.jpg
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Old June 7th, 2010, 09:59 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
That's definitely not the case. I don't have a picture of the Velaro nose-frame at hand, but take a look at the following video about the construction of Shinkansen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZNFs...eature=related

You see clearly that there is a single-piece frame underlying the various aluminum pieces the workers later attach to it. compare that with the AGV video, where the nose (frame) is essentially formed by connecting the flat extensions of the two sides of the train cabin, with a top piece. I am sorry, but that definitely looks and feels cheap. And not only cheap, this method of construction gives you a lot less flexibility for precise plastic shaping and fine-tuning of the aerodynamic properties of the nose. And I suspect, though I agree I don't have hard data on this, that it is also easier to break.
You are trying hard to demonstrate that the Agv is cheaply engineered without any proofs nor, it seems, any knowledge of train engineering. Please show us some material supporting your assertions, showing us some pictures and saying "it seems" or "It looks cheaply engineering" doesn't suffice.
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