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Old June 7th, 2010, 12:20 PM   #481
Coccodrillo
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The ETR 300 ran at 200 km/h and was ana rticulated train with distributed power. This type of construction is common for regional and urban rail vehicles, just think at many trams (streetcars), in service since 50 years or more.
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Old June 7th, 2010, 12:44 PM   #482
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To add a bit more pedantry to this quote...
Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
Though risking being pedantic, once again I have to take issue with Alstom's marketing claim of this:

Quote:
the AGV is the first train in the world to combine articulated architecture with distributed power.
It should read "the AGV is the first high speed train in the world to combine articulated architecture with distributed power"
It should read "the AGV is the first commercially available high speed train in the world to combine articulated architecture with distributed power".
The Japanese experimental Shinkansen train STAR21 had half it's cars with motorized articulated boogies as a test if it were a good idea to use an articulated design for the Shinkansen network. The train briefly had the national speed record in Japan with 425 km/h.

Alstom's marketing department says a lot of crap...

More info about the STAR21 can be found on Japanese Wikipedia: click, and translated via Google Translate: click.
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Old June 7th, 2010, 05:35 PM   #483
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The VERY FIRST High speed train with distribueted power was the ETR200/220 built by Breda in 1936 under the Fascist era.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETR_200

Japan and Germany try to delete the record with own trainset of the same time..

At the time France and UK had no electric trainset in own rolling stock because of '29 crisis.


[img]http://www.**************/oldies/DRossi/etr23xe25x-200383mestre2DRt%20copia.jpg[/img]
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Old June 7th, 2010, 08:58 PM   #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cori View Post
The VERY FIRST High speed train with distribueted power was the ETR200/220 built by Breda in 1936 under the Fascist era.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETR_200

Japan and Germany try to delete the record with own trainset of the same time..

At the time France and UK had no electric trainset in own rolling stock because of '29 crisis.


[img]http://www.**************/oldies/DRossi/etr23xe25x-200383mestre2DRt%20copia.jpg[/img]


Also...

"The first example was built by Società Italiana Ernesto Breda in 1936, with three cars on four bogies, two of which had a single T 62-R-100 motor while the others were provided with two similar motors each.

The train had been designed for speeds up to 175 km/h, but the first pantographs caused problems over 130 km/h.


The ETR 200 entered service in 1937 on the Bologna-Rome-Naples line".

Therefore the idea has been around for sometime..and Alstom has just discovered hot air...

Last edited by joseph1951; June 7th, 2010 at 09:06 PM.
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Old June 9th, 2010, 10:20 AM   #485
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Alstom extends high speed train family



08 June 2010

ITALY: Alstom Transport revealed a further addition to its portfolio of high speed trains at the Expo Ferroviaria event in Torino on June 8. The design, which does not yet have a name, combines elements of all of the company’s existing products in the high speed sector, including the AGV and Pendolino.

The ‘platform’ will initially be offered as Alstom’s response to a tender for 50 high speed trains issued by Trenitalia, the preferred bidder for which is due to be announced next month. Alstom’s new train is a highly modular, single-deck trainset designed for operation at between 220 km/h and 400 km/h.

Trenitalia expects to deploy its trains at 360 km/h in competition with open access operator NTV. Unlike the articulated AGV, Alstom’s new model would feature individual bogies under each car and asynchronous motors. Trains for the Italian market would be manufactured locally, with final assembly at Savigliano using components from other Alstom factories in the country.

An eight-car trainset could have capacity for up to 600 passengers, dependent on internal configuration. Alstom says that customer demand is driving the design of single-deck trains that will provide similar capacity to the double-deck TGV Duplex.

In the longer term, Alstom expects to target the Russian and Chinese markets with the new design, which has roof-mounted air-conditioning equipment to give better performance in extreme temperatures. The manufacturer will continue to offer its existing range of Pendolino, TGV Duplex and AGV trains alongside this new offering.
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Old June 9th, 2010, 01:17 PM   #486
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I think we should open a new thread ...
Anyway, here it is :

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Old June 9th, 2010, 03:11 PM   #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Railfan View Post
Alstom extends high speed train family



08 June 2010

ITALY: Alstom Transport revealed a further addition to its portfolio of high speed trains at the Expo Ferroviaria event in Torino on June 8. The design, which does not yet have a name, combines elements of all of the company’s existing products in the high speed sector, including the AGV and Pendolino.

The ‘platform’ will initially be offered as Alstom’s response to a tender for 50 high speed trains issued by Trenitalia, the preferred bidder for which is due to be announced next month. Alstom’s new train is a highly modular, single-deck trainset designed for operation at between 220 km/h and 400 km/h.

Trenitalia expects to deploy its trains at 360 km/h in competition with open access operator NTV. Unlike the articulated AGV, Alstom’s new model would feature individual bogies under each car and asynchronous motors. Trains for the Italian market would be manufactured locally, with final assembly at Savigliano using components from other Alstom factories in the country.

An eight-car trainset could have capacity for up to 600 passengers, dependent on internal configuration. Alstom says that customer demand is driving the design of single-deck trains that will provide similar capacity to the double-deck TGV Duplex.

In the longer term, Alstom expects to target the Russian and Chinese markets with the new design, which has roof-mounted air-conditioning equipment to give better performance in extreme temperatures. The manufacturer will continue to offer its existing range of Pendolino, TGV Duplex and AGV trains alongside this new offering.
How it could be possible to have same capacity than Duplex ?
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Old June 9th, 2010, 03:39 PM   #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadiri View Post
How it could be possible to have same capacity than Duplex ?
That's simple, the TGV/AGV utilizes Jacobs bogies which limits the length of carts resulting to limited space and capacity.
With conventional bogies the carts can be elongated providing more capacity per each carts.
It will probably lower the price since you don't need as many carts to transport the same amount of people.
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Old June 9th, 2010, 05:16 PM   #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadiri View Post
How it could be possible to have same capacity than Duplex ?
As Samurai said, only if the new train has longer cars. Pendolino (at least the UK variant) has 24m cars, whereas Duplex is 18.7m. Thats a fifth less length. Minus out of that the stairs all over the place and its starts to make sense.
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Old June 9th, 2010, 07:18 PM   #490
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An interesting interview in the french magazine Challenges (in French!) of Philippe Mellier, chairman of Alstom Transport, where he explains the raison d'être of this new high speed train and mentions a double-deck AGV duplex.

http://www.challenges.fr/actualites/..._saoudite.html
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Old June 10th, 2010, 04:59 AM   #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvar Lavague View Post
I think we should open a new thread ...
This train don´t have name to open a new thread





Will have AGV tecnoligy
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Old June 10th, 2010, 07:12 AM   #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
That's simple, the TGV/AGV utilizes Jacobs bogies which limits the length of carts resulting to limited space and capacity.
With conventional bogies the carts can be elongated providing more capacity per each carts.
It will probably lower the price since you don't need as many carts to transport the same amount of people.
"Car length" is immaterial, as it is train length that mattes. How many people can you transport in a train that is 200m long (The european standard). Having an articulated trainset with shorter cars doesn not reduce passenger capacity per se, as you just add more cars... An 11 car AGV is a as long as an 8 car ICE, and they each transport the same amount of passengers.

It's true that doubledecking a train only increases capacity by about 40% or so. You can also get that increase by putting seats closer together, or using 2+3 seating (as in the Avril). I prefer doubledeckers. For one thing the view is better upstairs...
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Old June 10th, 2010, 10:16 AM   #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
"Car length" is immaterial, as it is train length that mattes.
The reason for the query is that the article stated a comparison of an 8-car new train vs a TGV duplex which also has 8 passenger cars. Therefore it is worth mentioning that car length is the only thing that can make the material difference to allow a comparable capacity as a duplex.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 12:05 PM   #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
The reason for the query is that the article stated a comparison of an 8-car new train vs a TGV duplex which also has 8 passenger cars. Therefore it is worth mentioning that car length is the only thing that can make the material difference to allow a comparable capacity as a duplex.
The TGV Duplex has two power cars and 8 intermediate cars, for a length of 200m. The "material difference" here is that the new Alstom train proposed for Italy doesn't have power cars, and has distributed power in stead.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 12:09 PM   #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
"Car length" is immaterial, as it is train length that mattes. How many people can you transport in a train that is 200m long (The european standard). Having an articulated trainset with shorter cars doesn not reduce passenger capacity per se, as you just add more cars... An 11 car AGV is a as long as an 8 car ICE, and they each transport the same amount of passengers..
Price will also matter, I do not know how much each train sets costs but rule of thumb suggests that AGV will probably cost more than the Velaro with the numbers of cars per trainset of same length.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 12:34 PM   #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Price will also matter, I do not know how much each train sets costs but rule of thumb suggests that AGV will probably cost more than the Velaro with the numbers of cars per trainset of same length.
But the amount of bogies and axles is less on an 11 car AGV (=12 bogies/ 24 axles) then a 8 car Velaro (=16 bogies/32axles), so i'm not sure if the price will be that much higer.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 01:37 PM   #497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The TGV Duplex has two power cars and 8 intermediate cars, for a length of 200m. The "material difference" here is that the new Alstom train proposed for Italy doesn't have power cars, and has distributed power in stead.
I'm sorry dude, I don't want to be picky but in terms of the original point only car length is the difference, as both trainsets have exactly the same amount of passenger cars. It is the same if one says;

new 200m train has same capacity as 155m of duplex cars, or
new 25m cars have same capacity as 18.7m duplex cars, or
new 200m train has same capacity as 200m duplex.

It is saying the same thing in different ways.

Quote:
An eight-car trainset could have capacity for up to 600 passengers, dependent on internal configuration. Alstom says that customer demand is driving the design of single-deck trains that will provide similar capacity to the double-deck TGV Duplex.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 01:46 PM   #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
I'm sorry dude, I don't want to be picky but in terms of the original point only car length is the difference, as both trainsets have exactly the same amount of passenger cars. It is the same if one says;

new 200m train has same capacity as 155m of duplex cars, or
new 25m cars have same capacity as 18.7m duplex cars, or
new 200m train has same capacity as 200m duplex.

It is saying the same thing in different ways.
Sure, but that's not what I'm saying.

What I am saying is that the seating capacity for a train of 200m length is not determined by it being articulated or not. The poster I reacted though did state as a reason for the new Alstom train having similar capacity as a TGV Duplex was that the latter used Jacobs bogies. That's ofcourse not true.
The crucial difference is one between a trainset with dedicated powercars and one with distributed power. Distributed power means more passengers. A duplex AGV would even have more passengers.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 02:14 PM   #499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Sure, but that's not what I'm saying.

What I am saying is that the seating capacity for a train of 200m length is not determined by it being articulated or not. The poster I reacted though did state as a reason for the new Alstom train having similar capacity as a TGV Duplex was that the latter used Jacobs bogies. That's ofcourse not true.
The crucial difference is one between a trainset with dedicated powercars and one with distributed power. Distributed power means more passengers. A duplex AGV would even have more passengers.
Sorry but as I have wrote Jacobs bogies limits the length of a cart which will always be shorter than conventional bogies. This is because there is a limit in distance between axles or the train will derail.
Trains makes turns through the difference of radius between the inner and outer rim of the wheel but with the difference between the front and rear locus there is an inherit limit in distance between axles relative to the circumference of the curve.
Since Jacobs bogies are installed at the end of each carts, the cart length are limited to the inherent limit of the distance of the axles while carts with conventional bogies have more lean way in length of the cart itself.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 02:50 PM   #500
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tbh I think the main reason for shorter cars with jacob's bogies is to ensure the car cross-section remains inside the loading guage on tight curves. The bogie base is approximately the same for articulated and non-articulated cars, therefore the over hang on the inside of a curve is the same. I have not ever heard that shorter cars are required to avoid derailing.
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