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Old June 10th, 2010, 03:05 PM   #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
tbh I think the main reason for shorter cars with jacob's bogies is to ensure the car cross-section remains inside the loading guage on tight curves.
If that is true then it would not matter whether it be jacob's bogies or conventional bogies since the length of the cart is the issue not the type of bogies.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 04:23 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
tbh I think the main reason for shorter cars with jacob's bogies is to ensure the car cross-section remains inside the loading guage on tight curves. The bogie base is approximately the same for articulated and non-articulated cars, therefore the over hang on the inside of a curve is the same. I have not ever heard that shorter cars are required to avoid derailing.
It has indeed to do with the "kinematic enveloppe". Some manufacturers go even further, and make the cars even shorter, so they can be made wider. See the Talgo ans an example.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 04:25 PM   #503
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Sorry but as I have wrote Jacobs bogies limits the length of a cart which will always be shorter than conventional bogies.
It's "car" not "cart". And shorter cars don't mean less seats on a train length of 200m, as I'll repeat here (again).
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Old June 10th, 2010, 05:01 PM   #504
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It has indeed to do with the "kinematic enveloppe". Some manufacturers go even further, and make the cars even shorter, so they can be made wider. See the Talgo ans an example.
Again loading gauge does not matter to the type of bogie configuration, if it did carts using jacob's bogies would become longer not shorter since they would weigh less than carts with conventional bogies.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 06:55 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Again loading gauge does not matter to the type of bogie configuration, if it did carts using jacob's bogies would become longer not shorter since they would weigh less than carts with conventional bogies.
A loading gauge defines the maximum height and width for railway vehicles and their loads to ensure safe passage through bridges, tunnels and other structures.
these pictures show that with a bigger distance between the bogies, the car extends further away from the rails in a curve. For a car with jacob's bogies the length of the car is the same as the distance between the bogies, but for a "normal" car the car is longer than the distance between the bogies. So for the same distance between the bogies to keep within a certain loading gauge, a "normal" car will be longer then the one with jacob's bogies.
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Old June 10th, 2010, 11:43 PM   #506
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A loading gauge defines the maximum height and width for railway vehicles and their loads to ensure safe passage through bridges, tunnels and other structures.
these pictures show that with a bigger distance between the bogies, the car extends further away from the rails in a curve. For a car with jacob's bogies the length of the car is the same as the distance between the bogies, but for a "normal" car the car is longer than the distance between the bogies. So for the same distance between the bogies to keep within a certain loading gauge, a "normal" car will be longer then the one with jacob's bogies.
True. Also shorter carriages can we wider than standard ones.
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Old June 11th, 2010, 10:02 AM   #507
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True. Also shorter carriages can we wider than standard ones.
Exactly. The Danish "S-Tog" trains use short carriages in order to be wider, and thus increase capacity. Talgo does the same with it's Avril, which it intends to offer with 3+2 seating.
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Old June 12th, 2010, 06:01 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by JeroenMostert View Post
A loading gauge defines the maximum height and width for railway vehicles and their loads to ensure safe passage through bridges, tunnels and other structures.
these pictures show that with a bigger distance between the bogies, the car extends further away from the rails in a curve. For a car with jacob's bogies the length of the car is the same as the distance between the bogies, but for a "normal" car the car is longer than the distance between the bogies. So for the same distance between the bogies to keep within a certain loading gauge, a "normal" car will be longer then the one with jacob's bogies.
This also corresponds with the angle of attack of fixed bogies in correlation with tracks on curvature.
The limit of angle of attack is relative to the distance between axles, so to offset this limit usage of either "active" bogies or shorten the carts is required.
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Old June 14th, 2010, 06:45 AM   #509
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
That's simple, the TGV/AGV utilizes Jacobs bogies which limits the length of carts resulting to limited space and capacity.
With conventional bogies the carts can be elongated providing more capacity per each carts.
It will probably lower the price since you don't need as many carts to transport the same amount of people.
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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
As Samurai said, only if the new train has longer cars. Pendolino (at least the UK variant) has 24m cars, whereas Duplex is 18.7m. Thats a fifth less length. Minus out of that the stairs all over the place and its starts to make sense.
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"Car length" is immaterial, as it is train length that mattes. How many people can you transport in a train that is 200m long (The european standard). Having an articulated trainset with shorter cars doesn not reduce passenger capacity per se, as you just add more cars... An 11 car AGV is a as long as an 8 car ICE, and they each transport the same amount of passengers.

It's true that doubledecking a train only increases capacity by about 40% or so. You can also get that increase by putting seats closer together, or using 2+3 seating (as in the Avril). I prefer doubledeckers. For one thing the view is better upstairs...
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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
I'm sorry dude, I don't want to be picky but in terms of the original point only car length is the difference, as both trainsets have exactly the same amount of passenger cars. It is the same if one says;

new 200m train has same capacity as 155m of duplex cars, or
new 25m cars have same capacity as 18.7m duplex cars, or
new 200m train has same capacity as 200m duplex.

It is saying the same thing in different ways.
Thank you for your answers. Morocco will buy 18 TGV Duplex for Tanger-Kenitra LGV. According to your answers, it's not the best choice.

The best choice will be a normal AGV or the future AGV double deck ?
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Old June 14th, 2010, 02:50 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
This also corresponds with the angle of attack of fixed bogies in correlation with tracks on curvature.
The limit of angle of attack is relative to the distance between axles, so to offset this limit usage of either "active" bogies or shorten the carts is required.
Can you provide some sort of back up to this point?

It seems far more likely and obvious that the reason why articulated cars are shorter is that they have the same bogie length (i.e. the distance between the bogies) so that the vehicle envelope is precisely the same (as in it doesn't hit platforms or bridges or tunnels or other trains). Then, a normal train car is longer than the bogie length, but by definition an articulated car cannot be.

This is so blindingly obvious that I want to see some sort of back up to your point to entertain it at all.
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Old June 14th, 2010, 03:45 PM   #511
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Can you provide some sort of back up to this point?
No links but here is my hypothesis.
First please study the picture provided within the link.


As you may know bogies are fixed so they cannot turn into a curve, trains depends on differential of inner and outer circumference of the wheel to make turns.


With intern connecting bogies, the vector will be the same regardless of actual direction.
As you can see within a curve, the front bogies is moving out of the curve so it is leaning towards the outer rim while the rear bogies is still within the cure leaning on the inner flange due to yaw motion due to being tied by the cart limiting the bogies angle of attack. Too much yaw force will force the train to derail so a train has an inherit limit of length between interconnecting bogies.

(Giving further consideration concerning the subject, if Jacob's bogies have a floating pivot connection between the bogies and cart this should be negated the problem but it will jack knife like conventional bogies.)
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Old June 14th, 2010, 10:31 PM   #512
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Re. Jacob's bogies: Steerable trucks hailing from the '80s yielded awful rides...
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Old June 15th, 2010, 10:45 AM   #513
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
With intern connecting bogies, the vector will be the same regardless of actual direction.
As you can see within a curve, the front bogies is moving out of the curve so it is leaning towards the outer rim while the rear bogies is still within the cure leaning on the inner flange due to yaw motion due to being tied by the cart limiting the bogies angle of attack. Too much yaw force will force the train to derail so a train has an inherit limit of length between interconnecting bogies.
Ok, this is fine as a hypothesis, however I must point out that platforms and brides and tunnels pre-exist any type of articulated bogie train. Car design had already evolved to maximise car length (as it is more economic to construct and power - less bogies per entire train length) and therefore the maximum bogie length had been reached, articulated train or not.

Therefore lengthening the distance between bogies is simply not an option or the the middle of the car will scrape the platform/tunnel/bridge on the inside of the curve. As this cannot be allowed, the bogie length cannot be increased. Therefore there is no possibility of causing a derailment by your hypothesis because this situation would never arise in the first place.

Articulated cars are shorter due to restrictions in bogie length vis a vis the loading guage. Nothing else matters.
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Old June 16th, 2010, 10:34 PM   #514
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Old June 16th, 2010, 10:58 PM   #515
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Old June 17th, 2010, 07:39 PM   #516
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Old June 20th, 2010, 09:25 AM   #517
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Last edited by Railfan; June 20th, 2010 at 09:32 AM.
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Old June 24th, 2010, 06:25 PM   #518
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Old July 7th, 2010, 01:42 AM   #519
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Old September 4th, 2010, 12:18 AM   #520
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Hi there.

The new HSL from Perpignan in France to Figueres in Spain will be opening next December the 12th.

Two TGV Paris-Figueres per day, and two Figueres-Paris.
There will be an interchange to a Spanish train that will provide the link to Barcelona, which is still in works.
There will also be a bus to the centre of Figueres, as the station will be a parkway-type one.

Source: www.routard.com, Figueres town council, several Spanish regional newspapers.

p.s: as it is an international line, I´ve posted this message in both the TGV France and HSL Spain threads.

EDIT: Spanish Gov denies! No exact date yet!

Last edited by 437.001; September 4th, 2010 at 02:32 AM.
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