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Old September 4th, 2010, 04:18 PM   #521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ER_441 View Post
With Gare de Lyon and Gare Montparnasse being both already being congested railway terminals in Paris, are there plans that SNCF is planning to upgrade Gare d'Austerlitz, so that some of the train services on the TGV Sud-Est (Paris-French Riviera, Montpellier and Lyon) can be used for by both Gare de Lyon and Gare d'Austerlitz?
I don't think that both those terminals are congested. Montparnasse has 28 platforms, and sees about 315 trains a day. Given that you can have about four departures per hour per track I'd say that the numbers don't point towards this station being saturated. I suspect that a similar situation exist at other terminals. I'm often at Gare du Nord, and that station doesn't look particularly busy either (the Grand Lignes part, I know the story is different for the suburban part). Gare de L'Est is massively underutilised.

SNCF should rather try to reduce the number of terminals used by long distance trains, rather than increase their number.
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Old September 4th, 2010, 04:22 PM   #522
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They should build a TGV-only station, underground, in a suitable area that could connect all high-speed lines to/from Paris.
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Old September 5th, 2010, 11:41 PM   #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I don't think that both those terminals are congested. Montparnasse has 28 platforms, and sees about 315 trains a day. Given that you can have about four departures per hour per track I'd say that the numbers don't point towards this station being saturated. I suspect that a similar situation exist at other terminals. I'm often at Gare du Nord, and that station doesn't look particularly busy either (the Grand Lignes part, I know the story is different for the suburban part). Gare de L'Est is massively underutilised.
Well, that depends on the operating procedures. The way french railwaymen
consider so quickly a station as saturated never ceased to amaze me. For
example, they consider the station of Lille Flandres as saturated, with, I
don't remember how much exactly, but certainly close to 20 tracks available,
while in Antwerp, before modernization, we had twice the number of trains
per day with only 10 tracks in the station. Now that WAS saturation...
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Old September 6th, 2010, 08:34 AM   #524
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Well, that depends on the operating procedures. The way french railwaymen
consider so quickly a station as saturated never ceased to amaze me.
Indeed. And it leads to missed opportunities.
Around Paris more and more suburban lines are connected to the RER system. This is good for the commuters, and frees up capacity in the terminals. As a result the old mainline terminals have all capacity to spare.
They should for example route the LGV-EST trains to Gare Du Nord, and give up Est, and redevelop the site. (Preserving the terminal building).
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Old September 6th, 2010, 02:40 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Indeed. And it leads to missed opportunities.
Around Paris more and more suburban lines are connected to the RER system. This is good for the commuters, and frees up capacity in the terminals. As a result the old mainline terminals have all capacity to spare.
They should for example route the LGV-EST trains to Gare Du Nord, and give up Est, and redevelop the site. (Preserving the terminal building).
On the other hand, when you look at the saturation of a station, it's not
only the occupancy of the platform tracks that count, but also the grid of
tracks that link the platforms to the railway lines, and the maintenance
and repair facilities. Surface tracks in Gare du Nord may appear lighty loaded,
but there is also a sub-surface station there with a train passing on each
track every 2/3 minutes. With this traffic taken into account, I do not believe
that it could be possible to merge the North and East traffic into one single
station.

And also, you must take traffic expansion into account. Before LGV Nord
existed, there were about 12 international trains between Gare du Nord
and Belgium. Nor there is a train every 30 minutes and the traffic is still
growing. I expect that with completion of the LGV Est up to Strasbourg,
the same will happen there. Disposing of a terminal in a busy town like
Paris is gambling with the future...
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Old September 6th, 2010, 04:07 PM   #526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
On the other hand, when you look at the saturation of a station, it's not
only the occupancy of the platform tracks that count, but also the grid of
tracks that link the platforms to the railway lines, and the maintenance
and repair facilities. Surface tracks in Gare du Nord may appear lighty loaded,
but there is also a sub-surface station there with a train passing on each
track every 2/3 minutes. With this traffic taken into account, I do not believe
that it could be possible to merge the North and East traffic into one single
station.

And also, you must take traffic expansion into account. Before LGV Nord
existed, there were about 12 international trains between Gare du Nord
and Belgium. Nor there is a train every 30 minutes and the traffic is still
growing. I expect that with completion of the LGV Est up to Strasbourg,
the same will happen there. Disposing of a terminal in a busy town like
Paris is gambling with the future
...
True. Too much capacity, that's a bit of a luxury problem. Not enough capacity in a city the size of Paris... that's going to go ouch.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 10:08 PM   #527
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5/02/2011

Il Governo riferisca quale sia l'offerta di NTV sull'Alta Velocità

Dell' On Elio Lannutti (Idv)


Ai Ministri delle infrastrutture e dei trasporti e dell'economia e delle finanze - Premesso che:
nei giorni scorsi l'imprenditore Diego Della Valle, Presidente delle Tod's e della società di calcio La Fiorentina, presente in numerosi consigli di amministrazioni del "salotto buono", salito recentemente alle cronache nazionali per aver offerto 25 milioni di euro per restaurare il Colosseo, ha rilasciato numerose interviste molto critiche sugli assetti societari di alcune società quotate come Generali e su alcuni immarcescibili presidenti e/o amministratori delegati di primarie imprese, anche di origine bancaria ed assicurativa, i cosiddetti "imbalsamatori" che calcano da oltre 40 anni le scene economiche dell'asfittico capitalismo italiano;
in una lunga intervista a "Vanity Fair", sintetizzata da un lancio dell'agenzia Reuters dell'8 febbraio 2011, Della Valle ha annunciato la discesa in politica di Cordero di Montezemolo, con il quale condivide sia la presenza nel consiglio di amministrazione del gruppo RCS, che edita tra l'altro il "Corriere della Sera", che nella società di trasporto ferroviario NTV con significative quote azionarie;
la società per azioni NTV, creata infatti nel dicembre 2006 dagli imprenditori Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, Diego Della Valle, Gianni Punzo e Giuseppe Sciarrone, ai quali nel giugno 2008 si sono aggiunti Intesa Sanpaolo, Alberto Bombassei, Generali Financial Holdings FCP-FIS e SNCF/VFE-P-SA e nel gennaio 2009 Isabella Seragnoli, con un patrimonio di 236,6 milioni di euro, è il primo operatore privato italiano nel trasporto ferroviario di persone sulla rete ad alta velocità, che farà concorrenza all'operatore storico Ferrovie dello Stato;
Della Valle, Montezemolo e Punzo hanno infatti quote paritetiche nella MPD Holding, primi azionisti della NTV con il 33,5 per cento del capitale, seguiti da Imi Investimenti (Intesa San Paolo) con il 20 per cento; SNCF/VFE-P-SA con il 20 per cento; Generali Financial Holding FCP-FIS, con il 15 per cento; Nuova Fourb di Bombassei con il 5 per cento; la Mais SpA di Seragnoli con il 5 per cento; la Reset 2000 di Sciarrone, con l'1,5 per cento;
la NTV diverrà operativa nel 2011 con la liberalizzazione del settore ferroviario nell'Unione europea che è avvenuta il 1º gennaio 2010. Per l'utilizzo delle infrastrutture ferroviarie NTV pagherà ogni anno circa 140 milioni di euro a Rete ferroviaria italiana (RFI). Il 17 gennaio 2008 NTV ha ordinato ad Alstom 25 treni ad alta velocità AGV (quarta generazione del TGV) di 11 carrozze ciascuno che dovrebbero entrare in servizio nel 2011, per entrare nel mercato dei treni ad alta velocità sulle linee AV già esistenti facendo concorrenza a Trenitalia e ai suoi servizi Eurostar Italia sulle linee: Torino-Salerno (Torino, Milano, Bologna, Firenze, Roma, Napoli e Salerno); Roma-Venezia (Roma, Firenze, Bologna, Verona, Padova e Venezia);
NTV sarà il primo operatore al mondo ad utilizzare il nuovo treno Alstom AGV;
la missione di NTV è quella di effettuare servizi viaggiatori sulle linee Alta Velocità, innovando nei contenuti e valorizzando il tempo di viaggio attraverso servizi completi e personalizzati, ambienti confortevoli e tecnologicamente avanzati, grande qualità a prezzi competitivi;
obiettivo di NTV è contribuire alla crescita del sistema ferroviario, caratterizzato da basso impatto ambientale ed alta efficienza energetica, e valorizzare il grande investimento dello Stato nell'Alta Velocità (40 miliardi di euro);
considerato che:
il 6 febbraio 2007 NTV ha ottenuto dal Ministero delle infrastrutture e trasporti la "Licenza di impresa Ferroviaria"; il 28 luglio 2007 ha conseguito il "Titolo autorizzatorio" e firmato il protocollo d'intesa sui "Servizi universali", con il quale NTV si impegna a partecipare alla copertura degli oneri dei contratti di servizio per le tratte non remunerative. Il 17 gennaio 2008 ha siglato l'accordo quadro con RFI, per l'utilizzo dell'infrastruttura ferroviaria. Nel 2011 NTV inizierà il suo servizio commerciale: tre anni è, infatti, il tempo necessario ad Alstom per costruire i treni e ad NTV per provvedere alla realizzazione dell'impianto per la manutenzione della flotta, previsto all'interno dell'interporto di Nola, provvedere alla formazione del personale, alla realizzazione del sistema di prenotazione e vendita, e all'allestimento degli spazi dedicati ai servizi per i viaggiatori all'interno delle stazioni;
il nuovo treno AGV avrà una capacità di 460 posti, distribuiti su 11 carrozze (lunghezza treno 200 metri), e viaggerà in Italia sulla rete ad alta velocità a 300 chilometri all'ora. NTV ha sottoscritto con Alstom un contratto di 650 milioni di euro per la fornitura di una flotta di 25 treni AGV, da consegnarsi tra il 34° ed il 47° mese dalla data del contratto, con opzione di ulteriori 10 treni. L'accordo con Alstom prevede inoltre la manutenzione ordinaria e straordinaria della flotta per l'intero periodo di vita utile dei treni (30 anni), i cui costi non sono inclusi nel contratto di fornitura dei treni. NTV prevede di acquisire entro il 2015 una quota di mercato del 20 per cento, arrivando ai seguenti valori di domanda servita: 30.000 viaggiatori al giorno; 10 milioni di viaggiatori all'anno 3,3 miliardi di viaggiatori per chilometro all'anno;
NTV prevede di raggiungere in un triennio le dimensioni di 1.000 addetti, di cui più di 900 saranno operativi (120 macchinisti, 500 addetti di bordo, 200 addetti di stazione e 100 tecnici di movimentazione treni). Questo team di persone assicurerà, oltre alla condotta dei treni, il monitoraggio in tempo reale del servizio attraverso la sala operativa NTV;
considerato che ad avviso dell'interrogante:
le anticipazioni dell'intervista concessa da Diego Della Valle a "Vanity Fair" in cui annuncia che Montezemolo "sta pensando seriamente se impegnarsi o meno in politica" hanno avuto verosimilmente lo scopo di raffreddare gli attacchi condotti nei giorni scorsi contro il cosiddetto "salotto buono", dove è presente in qualità di membro in numerosi consigli di amministrazione;
i massimi vertici di Generali, Intesa SanPaolo, RCS e Mediobanca hanno probabilmente costretto la retromarcia di Della Valle, con una repentina modifica della traiettoria degli strali sul tandem Geronzi-Bazoli, cercando di smarcare il Presidente di Intesa SanPaolo dagli "imbalsamatori" del sistema;
i piani alti di Intesa SanPaolo, irritati dalla loquacità e dagli attacchi, potrebbero aver preso in considerazione la chiusura o il ridimensionamento delle disponibilità di credito alla società NTV;
per rendere più proficuo il business, gli azionisti e l'amministratore delegato Sciarrone stanno pensando di allargare l'offerta al trasporto merci,
si chiede di sapere:
quali siano le informazioni del Governo sulla vicenda richiamata in premessa e quali siano le proprie valutazioni per gli aspetti di competenza;
se infine risponda al vero che il programma originario di NTV, che doveva iniziare con l'offerta sull'Alta Velocità ad aprile 2011, abbia spostato l'esordio a settembre dei 25 treni Alstom superveloci sulle tratte dove per adesso corrono soltanto i treni Frecciarossa di Trenitalia.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 10:29 PM   #528
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Old December 12th, 2011, 02:57 AM   #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Railjournal.com
TODAY marks the start of commercial services on France's latest high-speed line - TGV Rhin-Rhône - and a major reorganisation of services in which 85% of trains have been rescheduled.

Opening of the 140km TGV Rhin-Rhône line from the east of Dijon to Mulhouse will affect services on two axes: Paris - Mulhouse - Zurich and Germany - Strasbourg - Lyon - southern France. Paris - Zurich trains will be diverted from TGV Est to the new line thereby cutting the journey time by 30 minutes to around 4 hours. Services from Metz, Nancy and Strasbourg to Lyon and destinations in southern France will also be routed over the new line.
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Old December 12th, 2011, 09:54 AM   #530
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I was on the LGV Est yesterday (on the first Zürich - Paris service over the new line).
The train called at Belfort - Monbeliard, which interestingly has a center platform. Trains passing take the outside. At Besançcon Franche-Comté the platforms are at the outside and our TGV was slowed down and passed those platforms on the loop tracks. We arrived in Paris about 10 minutes late. We did reach 320 kph (as verified by my GPS) during the trip at one point. Not for long though.

What puzzles me is the timetable of the line. Lots of trains that stop at either Belfort, Besançon or Dijon, but most of those trains don't stop at all three, which limits the usefullness of the line for "local" traffic. SNCF is still quite timid when it comes to opening new markets, it appears...
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Old December 12th, 2011, 10:44 AM   #531
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When are the other two sections of the LGV Rhin-Rhône due to commence operation?
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Old December 12th, 2011, 11:19 AM   #532
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Quote:
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What puzzles me is the timetable of the line. Lots of trains that stop at either Belfort, Besançon or Dijon, but most of those trains don't stop at all three, which limits the usefullness of the line for "local" traffic. SNCF is still quite timid when it comes to opening new markets, it appears...
Geez, it is a high-speed service with interpolated stops! On minor stations, only a few trains stops, thus reducing overall travel time! Can't you accept some countries like France focus more on making trips shorter (on its HSTs) than providing connections and good transfers everywhere?

If all trains stopped in all these cities, travel time would go up by 13 minutes at least.
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Old December 12th, 2011, 04:54 PM   #533
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When are the other two sections of the LGV Rhin-Rhône due to commence operation?
No real date yet, especially for the south branch (Auxonne-Lyon).
The other three sectors (far eastern branch Belfort-Mulhouse, western branch Villers les Pots-Dijon and far western branch Dijon-Montbard) are yet to be started, although the Belfort-Mulhouse sector will certainly come first.

Last edited by 437.001; December 13th, 2011 at 01:45 AM.
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Old December 12th, 2011, 06:31 PM   #534
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No real date yet, especially for the south branch (Auxonne-Lyon).
The other three sectors (far eastern branch Belfort-Mulhouse, western ranch Villers les Pots-Dijon and far western branch Dijon-Montbard) are yet to be started, although the Belfort-Mulhouse sector will certainly come first.
Thanks! I am surprised to read that the other sectors have not been started yet. I also hadn't realized that the newly opened sector does not go all the way to Mulhouse. I had assumed that it was all under construction and that Sarkozy would want to show it all off to the voters during the coming months. Perhaps I'm too cynical.
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Old December 13th, 2011, 04:55 PM   #535
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Geez, it is a high-speed service with interpolated stops! On minor stations, only a few trains stops, thus reducing overall travel time! Can't you accept some countries like France focus more on making trips shorter (on its HSTs) than providing connections and good transfers everywhere?

If all trains stopped in all these cities, travel time would go up by 13 minutes at least.
I don't say all trains should stop in all stations. I am just saying that having a two tier service where some trains go non stop, and some trains make all stops makes more sense than having all trains make some stops...

Train running time might be increased for the "locals", but the number of services offered daily would increase substantially, which has value too. SNCF is forgoing an opportunity here to tap new markets (and make more money...)
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Old December 13th, 2011, 04:57 PM   #536
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No real date yet, especially for the south branch (Auxonne-Lyon).
The other three sectors (far eastern branch Belfort-Mulhouse, western branch Villers les Pots-Dijon and far western branch Dijon-Montbard) are yet to be started, although the Belfort-Mulhouse sector will certainly come first.
There was however no trace of Belfort - Mulhouse having started. The embankment just ends, and the line then veers of on a (presumebly temporary) connection to the old main line.
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Old December 13th, 2011, 07:54 PM   #537
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There was however no trace of Belfort - Mulhouse having started. The embankment just ends, and the line then veers of on a (presumebly temporary) connection to the old main line.
Yes, that connection at Petit Croix is supposed to be temporary, the line will end at Mulhouse (Hasenrain or Flaxlanden perhaps?).
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Old February 7th, 2012, 07:09 PM   #538
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Hi there...

Does any French forumer know anything about the TGVs to Spain?
I mean, how many will there be, which will be the routes, will it be a TGV or an AVE on this or that route?

I say so, because in Spain we know only about that famous (and old by now) scheme showing this:

Quote:
-2 Barcelona-Paris Gare de Lyon
-1 Madrid-Barcelona-Paris Gare de Lyon
-1 Madrid-Barcelona-Marseille
-1 Barcelona-Marseille
-1 Barcelona-Lyon Part Dieu
-1 Madrid-Barcelona-Genève
-1 Barcelona-Lille
-1 Barcelona-Toulouse-Bordeaux
Is there any variation on this?

Thanks in advance.
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Old February 8th, 2012, 08:17 AM   #539
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Hi there...

Does any French forumer know anything about the TGVs to Spain?
I mean, how many will there be, which will be the routes, will it be a TGV or an AVE on this or that route?
What I know:
- RENFE is adapting it's oldest AVE sets (the ones based on the TGV Atlantique design) to run in France.
- SNCF is taking delivery of three current duplex trainsets (TGV Dasye tri courant). These can run in Spain (on standard gauge only of course), but also in Germany and Switzerland...

So there will be both Spanish and French trains for sure. I could imagine RENFE running a Barcelona - Geneva service. (I sure hope so. If they do I'll probably be one of the first passengers :-)
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Old February 9th, 2012, 09:50 PM   #540
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I guess there will be a Barcelona-Geneva.
That would be a sort of 'comeback' of the old Talgo, which was shortened to Montpellier-Barcelona and replaced by a TGV on Geneva-Montpellier.

I´ve read about 2 Barcelona-Toulouse instead of 1 Barcelona-Bordeaux in another site.
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