daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 1st, 2013, 12:38 AM   #681
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Not sure we will still be around for it, but in some distant future there probably will be a fully high speed line between Paris and Madrid via Bordeaux and Bilbao. After finishing the projects already under construction only small pieces will be missing. By this route it's only 200 km more than Paris-Barcelona.
__________________

SAS 16 liked this post
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 1st, 2013, 12:55 AM   #682
desi1
BANNED
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Les Lilas, Grand Paris
Posts: 1,518
Likes (Received): 813



I doubt it. HST will be old technology at this moment in the future.

Seriously, the french have never been very hot with this Bordeaux-Bilbao HS line. Never. Actually, the road in between through the Landes forest is not even a proper highway...they consider the economic case for it is not obvious.
It's more of a spanish. I should say "it was..." because right now they don't really look in a hurry to have it built...

Anyway, it's the whole concept of HS lines that has Fallen out of favor in France these days. Major railway investment will go to urban and regional transport from now on. A good thing in my opinion.
desi1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2013, 01:04 AM   #683
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Quote:
Originally Posted by desi1 View Post
Seriously, the french have never been very hot with this Bordeaux-Bilbao HS line. Never. Actually, the road in between through the Landes forest is not even a proper highway...they consider the economic case for it is not obvious.
It's more of a spanish. I should say "it was..." because right now they don't really look in a hurry to have it built...
That's a fair point, but of course I didn't specify any time frame. Lot of things may or may not happen in another 30 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desi1 View Post
Anyway, it's the whole concept of HS lines that has Fallen out of favor in France these days. Major railway investment will go to urban and regional transport from now on. A good thing in my opinion.
There are still several major projects ongoing and once they are completed most of the places worth connecting will been connected. It's kind of obvious that one can't keep on building these things forever without them turning into white elephants. I also agree that investing more in urban and regional traffic is good strategy. I'm not so familiar with situation elsewhere in France, but there is a significant drop in quality, frequency and density of the network once I cross the border from Switzerland into Alsace.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2013, 01:05 AM   #684
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,791

Anyway... never via Bilbao. It would be via San Sebastian and Vitoria but never Bilbao.

In the Basque Country it is under construction the "Y basque" which it is a railway coming from Miranda de Ebro (nowadays conventional railway to Vitoria-San Sebastian/Pamplona to Bilbao, to Logroño and to Burgos-Valladolid-Madrid) to Vitoria and then a cross. Left to Bilbao, right to San Sebastian and Irun (border with Hendaye)

The design will allow to have Irun-San Sebastian-Bilbao trains, Bilbao-Vitoria-Miranda and Miranda-Vitoria-San Sebastian-Irun..... but Bilbao will be always in a corner and for a long while, an ending line.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2013, 01:19 AM   #685
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,535
Likes (Received): 21242

Regional transportation and local transportation can be done by car, whereas medium distance travel needs high speed trains (or planes)
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2013, 01:27 AM   #686
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,791

Officially, it will be a Madrid-Valladolid-Burgos-Vitoria-Bilbao line with a branch to San Sebastian and Irun

Bilbao-San Sebastian is 100 km by road... they are not so near.
Vitoria and Bilbao are near but they can have a nice transport system with HSL. In fact, Madrid and Toledo have a good and cheap one thanks to it.

Anyways... any line coming from France would call at San Sebastian, Vitoria, Miranda, Burgos, Venta de Baños, Valladolid, Segovia and Madrid.

Bilbao would be near the line but not in the journey. It will be required to shuttle from San Sebastian (or maybe Vitoria if you want).


I cannot find accurate info in google maps but can find specific threads were some forumers could give us more information.


P.S. or a Paris-Bilbao, calling at San Sebastian, but Bilbao would be the final destination. Just have a look to its location and you will understand why.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2013, 07:20 AM   #687
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Regional transportation and local transportation can be done by car,
Only if you have a car...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2013, 07:21 AM   #688
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
(unless you have already reserved, isn´t it better to take the train till Lille or TGV-Haute Picardie and then go to Abbeville via Amiens?)
It would if the French railway network weren't so Paris centric...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2013, 10:02 PM   #689
Axelferis
Registered User
 
Axelferis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: A space between two worlds
Posts: 11,281
Likes (Received): 2246

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Yes, France is in a difficult economic position too.
It has the highest unemployment in many years (not like in Spain though, but for several reasons, the current unemployment in France is even worse in some aspects
are you serious? France is in difficult position like a lot of countries especially yours

France still the 5th World economic power and i see some spanish coming in France nowadays because we have a minimum wage which is superior to spanish one 1300€ with charges

Then please not propagate desinformation

France has potential on this world far superior to some countries because we produce technology in several field (IT,planes,railways,nuclear,petrochemistry...)
London financial district hunts for our french diplomee because parisian university is famous to have a mathematic department whith the best calculist provider

In 2016 lot of europeans will use our HSR network to join host cities : Lyon,Paris,Marseille,Lille,Bordeaux...
The reform will be made even if we have an incopetent guy at the head
__________________
W.A.O blog
Axelferis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2013, 10:18 PM   #690
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,535
Likes (Received): 21242

Is there any chance of some Lyon-Toulouse-(Zaragoza) HSR project?
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2013, 10:23 PM   #691
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

A Toulouse-Zaragoza line with a ~40 km tunnel (with many possible options) has been planned for years but I doubt we will see it.

Between Lyon and Toulouse there is the Massif Central.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2013, 10:27 PM   #692
SAS 16
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Madrid Spain European Union
Posts: 283
Likes (Received): 160

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
are you serious? France is in difficult position like a lot of countries especially yours

France still the 5th World economic power and i see some spanish coming in France nowadays because we have a minimum wage which is superior to spanish one 1300€ with charges

Then please not propagate desinformation

France has potential on this world far superior to some countries because we produce technology in several field (IT,planes,railways,nuclear,petrochemistry...)
London financial district hunts for our french diplomee because parisian university is famous to have a mathematic department whith the best calculist provider

In 2016 lot of europeans will use our HSR network to join host cities : Lyon,Paris,Marseille,Lille,Bordeaux...
The reform will be made even if we have an incopetent guy at the head
I dont think this is the place for competitions about who is more than the others . Indeed is true that france is a powerfull country, but not wanting to accept the ongoing situation in Europe and in the rest of the world too is just absurd.
SAS 16 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2013, 12:47 AM   #693
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,791

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
A Toulouse-Zaragoza line with a ~40 km tunnel (with many possible options) has been planned for years but I doubt we will see it.

Between Lyon and Toulouse there is the Massif Central.


Several projects have been set over the table but nothing concrete.

It is known that from the French side, first projects were rejected because location.
It is also known that it seems to be only one possibility for that tunnel. The only one that wouldn't cross any national or regional park neither in France nor in Spain.

In the Spanish side it will start near Escalona, Aragon.
But all projects would have a 35-40 km tunnel.

From Huesca (nearest UIC railway) to Escalona the terrain is not hard to build a HSL. About half side is absolutely like a flat, the second half would require some tunnels because it is a valley with two reservoirs.


But really we do not know anything else.

If you ask me, I would state that it is important to start thinking in it because after the decission to start works would be taken, it would require a loooong time to finish the tunnel

Furthermore I would state that the Canfranc option should be considered in order to improve freight capacity and, why not, regional trains within Aragon and Aquitaine or Midi Pyrenees.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2013, 02:17 AM   #694
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,994
Likes (Received): 15417

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
are you serious? France is in difficult position like a lot of countries especially yours


You only quoted the part of my post that you wanted.

If you had quoted the whole post, you wouldn´t have dared to say that I misinform, because I don´t.

And yes, I know that France is the second powerhouse of the EU... behind Germany.

And back to topic, please.
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2013, 02:39 AM   #695
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,994
Likes (Received): 15417

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
It would if the French railway network weren't so Paris centric...
Really? I´ve never thought about the French rail network as being so Paris-centric.
Maybe because I´m from Spain, and the rail network here is not as dense as the French.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Is there any chance of some Lyon-Toulouse-(Zaragoza) HSR project?
Absolutely not!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
A Toulouse-Zaragoza line with a ~40 km tunnel (with many possible options) has been planned for years but I doubt we will see it.
The thing here is that this project was thought from Spain, with a hispanocentric perspective, and regardless of the French geography and of France´s needs in rail transport.

One fine day, maybe, only maybe, that could be built, but not before the 2050s... being extremely optimistic.

Quote:
Between Lyon and Toulouse there is the Massif Central.
And the obvious Toulouse-Lyon route is via Narbonne-Montpellier-Nimes-Valence.
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2013, 08:28 AM   #696
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,158
Likes (Received): 274

Paris itself is an interesting city when it comes to HSL. The TGVs from the different parts of the country terminate at different stations. And you can't transfer from station to station by train...
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2013, 12:16 PM   #697
mramelet
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Utrecht, NL
Posts: 129
Likes (Received): 29

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Paris itself is an interesting city when it comes to HSL. The TGVs from the different parts of the country terminate at different stations. And you can't transfer from station to station by train...
Parisian stations (gare du nord, Est, Lyon, Montparnasse, Saint Lazare) are done for Paris O&D.
When it comes to transfert, France has build a kind of "bypass", via Charles de Gaulle Airport (from the North), Disneyland (from the south), and Massy-Palaiseau (for South West).
That means you can do a (Brussels)Lille-(CDG)-Marseille-Nice, or a Strasbourg-(Disneyland,Massy)-Bordeaux with going via Paris.
It's not the best route (particularly South West junction which is very limited in speed and capacity), but it does exists.
Plans exist to improve it, and create a new railway station at Orly
mramelet no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2013, 01:27 PM   #698
da_scotty
Registered User
 
da_scotty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oss/Delft
Posts: 3,356
Likes (Received): 791

Quote:
Originally Posted by mramelet View Post
Parisian stations (gare du nord, Est, Lyon, Montparnasse, Saint Lazare) are done for Paris O&D.
When it comes to transfert, France has build a kind of "bypass", via Charles de Gaulle Airport (from the North), Disneyland (from the south), and Massy-Palaiseau (for South West).
That means you can do a (Brussels)Lille-(CDG)-Marseille-Nice, or a Strasbourg-(Disneyland,Massy)-Bordeaux with going via Paris.
It's not the best route (particularly South West junction which is very limited in speed and capacity), but it does exists.
Plans exist to improve it, and create a new railway station at Orly
It's not complete but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Interconnexion_Est
__________________
Student at Delft University of Technology specializing in Transport & Infrastructure and Airport Design.
da_scotty no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 4th, 2013, 08:53 PM   #699
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,994
Likes (Received): 15417

Important news!!

According to this Spanish website (in Spanish): http://www.altavelocidad.org/index.p...nternacionales

-one AVE Barcelona Sants-Toulouse Matabiau and vv
-one AVE Barcelona Sants-Lyon (Perrache? Part-Dieu?) and vv
-one AVE Madrid Atocha-Barcelona Sants-Marseille St Charles and vv
-two TGV Paris Gare de Lyon-Barcelona Sants and vv
-night trains Trenhotel Joan Miró Barcelona Estació de França-Paris Austerlitz, and Trenhotel Francisco de Goya Madrid Chamartín-Paris-Austerlitz will be discontinued.
-Talgo Mare Nostrum Lorca/Cartagena-Barcelona Sants-Montpellier St Roch will be shortened to Lorca/Cartagena-Barcelona Sants, travellers for all stations beyond Barcelona toward Girona and France will have to change to the AVE Barcelona Sants-Lyon instead.

It will be in October.

All of this might or might not happen in the end.
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 4th, 2013, 11:13 PM   #700
javimix19
Registered User
 
javimix19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Donostia-San Sebastián
Posts: 749
Likes (Received): 1328

Ah, I thought that TGV between Barcelona and Paris started in April. Why this service hadn't start?

When that service is expected to start? I think that is a very important connection between Spain and France.
javimix19 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
alstom, high speed train, tgv

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium