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Old July 5th, 2013, 12:55 AM   #701
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Originally Posted by javimix19 View Post
Ah, I thought that TGV between Barcelona and Paris started in April. Why this service hadn't start?
If you followed a bit more the Spanish railway forum (), you´d know all you need to know about it.

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When that service is expected to start? I think that is a very important connection between Spain and France.
It is written in the post just above yours. READ IT.
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Old July 5th, 2013, 07:30 AM   #702
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[B]
-night trains Trenhotel Joan Miró Barcelona Estació de França-Paris Austerlitz, and Trenhotel Francisco de Goya Madrid Chamartín-Paris-Austerlitz will be discontinued.
What will they do with the Trenotel trainsets?
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Old July 5th, 2013, 09:56 AM   #703
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What will they do with the Trenotel trainsets?
Same as DB did with theirs, I suppose... Let them rust for 10 years on a
siding with no maintenance whatsoever, and then torch them away once
they have become definitely unserviceable.
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Old July 5th, 2013, 12:41 PM   #704
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Same as DB did with theirs, I suppose... Let them rust for 10 years on a
siding with no maintenance whatsoever, and then torch them away once
they have become definitely unserviceable.
Seems to happen a lot. There are a couple of Trenotel sets in Bosnia that haven't moved a lot either...
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Old July 5th, 2013, 03:38 PM   #705
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Seems to happen a lot. There are a couple of Trenotel sets in Bosnia that haven't moved a lot either...
Yeah but those are brand new so one can only hope that revenue service
is only waiting for last technical problems to be solved before it can start.
But you are right, those things happen : look for example at the sets ordered
for Wisconsin in the USA and that will probably never turn a wheel...
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Old July 5th, 2013, 05:41 PM   #706
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
If you followed a bit more the Spanish railway forum (), you´d know all you need to know about it.



It is written in the post just above yours. READ IT.
Ok, excuse me please, perhaps sometimes I read the posts quickly and some matters pass me. I'm sorry. I promise that will never pass again.
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Old July 5th, 2013, 05:47 PM   #707
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Ok, excuse me please, perhaps sometimes I read the posts quickly and some matters pass me. I'm sorry. I promise that will never pass again.
Don't worry, you are welcome on this thread. Some forumers are a bit angry because of repeated questions, but we are all here to chat and exchange information.
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Old July 5th, 2013, 05:59 PM   #708
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
If you followed a bit more the Spanish railway forum (), you´d know all you need to know about it.



It is written in the post just above yours. READ IT.
Please be more polite to users asking questions. It may seem obvious to you that it has been discussed, but occasional users may have missed the information.
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Old July 5th, 2013, 07:54 PM   #709
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Please be more polite to users asking questions. It may seem obvious to you that it has been discussed, but occasional users may have missed the information.
He´s not an unknown forumer to me, he´s a Spanish user too, and I´m in good terms with him.

Obviously I wouldn´t answer that to the first forumer I come across.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 03:46 AM   #710
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Parisian stations (gare du nord, Est, Lyon, Montparnasse, Saint Lazare) are done for Paris O&D.
When it comes to transfert, France has build a kind of "bypass", via Charles de Gaulle Airport (from the North), Disneyland (from the south), and Massy-Palaiseau (for South West).
That means you can do a (Brussels)Lille-(CDG)-Marseille-Nice, or a Strasbourg-(Disneyland,Massy)-Bordeaux with going via Paris.
It's not the best route (particularly South West junction which is very limited in speed and capacity), but it does exists.
Plans exist to improve it, and create a new railway station at Orly
I have checked in voyages sncf some direct trains, it is quite strange that Lille Tours takes 2 H 52 for a distance of around 450 Km, while Nimes Paris takes the same 2 H 52 for a distance of around 700 Km. This is due to the limitations of the south west bypass?

Regarding Lille Marseille i have been shocked to see that there is a direct train that actually takes 4H 46 M, does anyone know the degree of occupancy of that train, it seems to me that it must be an empty train.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 03:56 AM   #711
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Regarding Lille Marseille i have been shocked to see that there is a direct train that actually takes 4H 46 M, does anyone know the degree of occupancy of that train, it seems to me that it must be an empty train.
Beijing-Shanghai takes that same amount of time, and those trains are PACKED
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Old July 7th, 2013, 04:17 AM   #712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post
Regarding Lille Marseille i have been shocked to see that there is a direct train that actually takes 4H 46 M, does anyone know the degree of occupancy of that train, it seems to me that it must be an empty train.
What is your better alternative?

There is 1,003 km between Lille and Marseille. By road, the trip would take from 9 to 10 hours. By plane, the trip would take at best 3 stressful hours in much poorer conditions.

Not only trains allow you to directly travel from city center to city center without any waiting time at the rail station, it's also a lot more comfortable as a way to travel : the passenger has more space, larger seat, wider table, a Wi-Fi connection, and he is able to walk to get a drink or a meal at the bar-restaurant.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 05:03 AM   #713
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Trains to Marseille are quite competitive with air and driving indeed.... the problem is the Cote d'Azur. Nice has horrible train connections.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 01:58 PM   #714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post
I have checked in voyages sncf some direct trains, it is quite strange that Lille Tours takes 2 H 52 for a distance of around 450 Km, while Nimes Paris takes the same 2 H 52 for a distance of around 700 Km. This is due to the limitations of the south west bypass?

Regarding Lille Marseille i have been shocked to see that there is a direct train that actually takes 4H 46 M, does anyone know the degree of occupancy of that train, it seems to me that it must be an empty train.
Checking today I can take TGV from Lille to Le Mans which takes two and a half hours. Then I need to change to a regional express to get to Tours. Le Mans is almost precisely the same distance from Paris as Le Mans (by LGV..). It suggests to me that the figure you have quoted actually isn't a direct TGV?

Anyway, that 20 minutes needs to account for the 150km difference in distance (I think you have over-quoted the Paris - Nimes distance). Well, at 300km/h it only takes 30 minutes to cover 150km. The Lille - Le Mans train needs to slow down a tad for the LGV interconnxxion and south-paris suburban lines, and calls at CGD, Marne-La-Vallee TGV, and Massy TGV. Half an hour easily accounted for there. Plus there will almost certainly be abit of timetable padding at one of the outer-Paris stations, in order to align the TGV from the LGV Nord timetable to the LGV Atlantique timetable, which are largely independent and unsynchronised.

Regards the 4hr 46 Lille - Marseille, I don't understand why you presume on this information alone that the train is mostly empty. Have a look at the below, this train is certainly not empty.

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Last edited by makita09; July 7th, 2013 at 02:23 PM.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 02:20 PM   #715
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There´s something wrong in your message, makita09. But I don´t know exactly what.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 02:46 PM   #716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clery View Post
What is your better alternative?

There is 1,003 km between Lille and Marseille. By road, the trip would take from 9 to 10 hours. By plane, the trip would take at best 3 stressful hours in much poorer conditions.

Not only trains allow you to directly travel from city center to city center without any waiting time at the rail station, it's also a lot more comfortable as a way to travel : the passenger has more space, larger seat, wider table, a Wi-Fi connection, and he is able to walk to get a drink or a meal at the bar-restaurant.
The first point is how many people (in %) will prefer to travel from Lille to Marseille in almost 5 hours, because to really beat the plane time should be better, and second and much more important question is that you can use a small regional plane to deserve this two cities, while you can not in the case of a train, all tgv´s are huge. That is why i wonder what the load factor is.

Maybe i have a confusion with the term direct trains, wich actually means no transfers, because if the train actually makes stops, without transfers, then ok, the train can be full with people travelling from lille to Paris, from Paris to Marseille....Direct probably does not mean non stop.

Last edited by Rayancito; July 7th, 2013 at 03:11 PM.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 02:55 PM   #717
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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Checking today I can take TGV from Lille to Le Mans which takes two and a half hours. Then I need to change to a regional express to get to Tours. Le Mans is almost precisely the same distance from Paris as Le Mans (by LGV..). It suggests to me that the figure you have quoted actually isn't a direct TGV?
All i know is that in the voyages.sncf..com the train with a journey of 2 H 52 appears as a direct trip with no transfer, there are multiple trains doing the service that day that do have a transfer. On the other hand maybe in voyages.sncf.com they do not include stops, then is very hard to make a comparision, because those stops can take long time and even make the train travel more Kilometers, just to make the stop. Probably direct does not mean non stop, i was confused about that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Regards the 4hr 46 Lille - Marseille, I don't understand why you presume on this information alone that the train is mostly empty. Have a look at the below, this train is certainly not empty.
I am not assuming anything, it just seems strange to me this trains can be full, that is why i am asking the load factor. A single trip one day does not make profitable one service.

Last edited by Rayancito; July 7th, 2013 at 03:11 PM.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 03:53 PM   #718
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Anyway, that 20 minutes needs to account for the 150km difference in distance (I think you have over-quoted the Paris - Nimes distance).
The distance between Paris and Nîmes is exactly of 713 km. Rayancito was correct.

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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Well, at 300km/h it only takes 30 minutes to cover 150km. The Lille - Le Mans train needs to slow down a tad for the LGV interconnxxion and south-paris suburban lines, and calls at CGD, Marne-La-Vallee TGV, and Massy TGV. Half an hour easily accounted for there. Plus there will almost certainly be abit of timetable padding at one of the outer-Paris stations, in order to align the TGV from the LGV Nord timetable to the LGV Atlantique timetable, which are largely independent and unsynchronised.
No, TGVs avoiding Paris don't interfere with suburban trafic. However, they have to take regular tracks. They can't do it at full HSR speed.

On the other side, the trip from Paris to Nîmes is on HSR lines all the way, which probably explains why it is so fast.


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Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post
The first point is how many people (in %) will prefer to travel from Lille to Marseille in almost 5 hours, because to really beat the plane time should be better, and second and much more important question is that you can use a small regional plane to deserve this two cities, while you can not in the case of a train, all tgv´s are huge. That is why i wonder what the load factor is.

Maybe i have a confusion with the term direct trains, wich actually means no transfers, because if the train actually makes stops, without transfers, then ok, the train can be full with people travelling from lille to Paris, from Paris to Marseille....Direct probably does not mean non stop.
Direct means non stop. There's no confusion here.

Both Marseille and Lille serve regions of about 3 million people. They are not "small". To fill up trains, you just need to lower their frequency. It's that simple. And indeed, there's only a direct train from Lille to Marseille every 3 hours.

As a matter of fact, domestic flights have been largely reduced in France with the development of high speed rail. The trafic has massively concentrated in the hub of Paris, with direct connection to TGV to serve the rest of the country. As a consequence, domestic flights which don't involve Paris are usually expensive and of low frequency.

TGV offers far better trip conditions for business travellers, with Wi-Fi access and wall plugs for the computer, making it possible to work in very good conditions. As for tourists, TGV remains a lot cheaper than plane (despite recent prices increase).
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Old July 7th, 2013, 05:13 PM   #719
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No, TGVs avoiding Paris don't interfere with suburban trafic. However, they have to take regular tracks. They can't do it at full HSR speed. On the other side, the trip from Paris to Nîmes is on HSR lines all the way, which probably explains why it is so fast.).Direct means non stop. There's no confusion here.
I have taken the Nimes Paris direct non stop train, it was wonderful. The speed is 248 Km / H, just like Madrid Barcelona. The speed for Lille Tours it is only 156 Km / H.

Are there any plans to improve the south west By Pass? It could actually alow trains from London to go to Bordeaux directly with a wonderfull time.



Quote:
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Both Marseille and Lille serve regions of about 3 million people. They are not "small". To fill up trains, you just need to lower their frequency. It's that simple. And indeed, there's only a direct train from Lille to Marseille every 3 hours..
In Spain Seville Barcelona and Malaga Barcelona have a couple of services per day not entering Madrid, with about 7 stops each........

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As a matter of fact, domestic flights have been largely reduced in France with the development of high speed rail. The trafic has massively concentrated in the hub of Paris, with direct connection to TGV to serve the rest of the country. As a consequence, domestic flights which don't involve Paris are usually expensive and of low frequency.

TGV offers far better trip conditions for business travellers, with Wi-Fi access and wall plugs for the computer, making it possible to work in very good conditions. As for tourists, TGV remains a lot cheaper than plane (despite recent prices increase).
Probably you need to treat better Ryan air for regional aviation not serving Paris. Lille Marseille is a good example, it could be faster and much cheaper.
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Old July 7th, 2013, 06:39 PM   #720
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My few and far away things I remember about French railways where:

- Easy to connect from one train to other. Possibility to have in the same ticket and some of the trains were linked so you could have a long distance train and will arrive at the same time than other one... and that stuff
- Long time to avoid stopping at Paris. I wonder if it wouldn't be faster to arrive to Paris, get a metro or RER and another TGV in other direction (specially if more frequencies)
- A great deal of differences between TGV and other trains...
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